Coin grading question 0

[Jblindy]

What has more weight when grading MS coins…strike or dings/scratches from other coins. 
 

The reason I ask is because I have seen a lot of MS64 Morgan dollars with more bag damage than an MS63. The only thing I can determine is that the strike is possibly more sharp or crisp. 
 

Of course, I’m looking at pictures so I might not be seeing the whole story. 
 

Anyway, just trying to learn it all and take in as much as I can from different sources. 

[Coinbuf]

It is not one or the other, there are other factors in play as well.   Luster and eye appeal are the most important attributes to the grading companies for UNC grades under the current market grading scheme.    Bag marks (especally the location and severity of the marks) and strike/wear are factors and also do factor into the eye appeal but are now second fiddle to luster and eye appeal in the overall view at the TPG's.   Circulated grading is still somewhat close to the old school standards, however eye appeal will still trump all.

Basically in the current market the TPG's are more pricing UNC coins as opposed to really grading them, they are placing the grade that they feel the coin merits (and should be priced at) on the overall look not by strict hit counts or the strength of strike alone.

As you view many coins you will see a disparity between the grades given today vs those in the early days of slabbing.   While most of those older graded coins that were worth the costs have been broken out and regraded there are still many coin in the older holders (like MS61 Morgan dollars) that were not worth the cost to upgrade.   So its important when you are viewing coins to understand the timeframe when the coin was graded and the changes from that time to how grading is done today.   That alone could be a part of the difference you see between grades under MS65.

Keep in mind that this is all my opinion and I suspect that the TPG's and others may not share my full opinion.

[JKK]

Neither has greater weight. Both are potential limiters. A Morgan's strike might cap its grade; for example, a soft strike might keep it from grading higher even if it had minimal dings in prime focal areas. Likewise, it could have a full strike but be limited by its dings (number/seriousness/location).

Don't know about anyone else, but I don't believe in grade averaging. The book lists the criteria in great detail for MS Morgans. To me, both sides must meet all the criteria for a given grade, and if one criterion is missing, that's what caps the grade. Not sure if TPGs go in for net grades, as I've actually never sent them a coin.

[Jblindy]

@Coinbuf@JKK  Thank you for your responses. I was curious as to what the answers would be here on the forums because I watched a video hosted by PCGS, Coin Grading 101. It was stated in the video that surface preservation carried a majority of the grading consideration, followed by strike and luster equally. Eye appeal makes up the final, lowest weighted consideration. But in looking at a few hundred or more pictures of slabbed coins, this doesn’t seem to be the case. 

Is it then the opinion that the major TPG’s grade more to appeal to the market rather than grading to the coin?  Case in point is the star or plus designation.  What is the point?  It’s either the assigned grade or it’s the next higher grade.  What do these designators even mean? The coin has a few less dings but still too many to be considered for the next grade?  This naturally brings up another question. What criteria is used to judge surface preservation, strike, or luster?  How can there even be any criteria for eye appeal?  Seems to me that eye appeal would be entirely based on a persons individual preferences.

@CoinbufYou mentioned the older slabs.  Were coins graded to a higher standard in the past.  If I find a coin in a “rattler” or a “fatty”, is it reasonable to expect the coin might grade higher if resubmitted?  Or will it grade lower?  OR is it just a shot in the dark, dependent on who is grading the coin that particular day?

@JKK Which book are you referring to?  
 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Jblindy

[GBrad]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:09 PM, Jblindy said:

Seems to me that eye appeal would be entirely based on a persons individual preferences.

I'm following this thread in which to learn myself, and there has been some good info. already supplied.  Your quote above I personally believe to be one of, if not the most, important aspects of decision making.  At least it is for me now that I have purchased over a half dozen slabbed and graded coins in the recent past.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder which I have always believed (and price point is too obviously...lol).  I love collecting Lincolns, always have, but I have ventured elsewhere lately and gotten into silver.  Hopefully soon I can get into gold.  Speaking of Lincoln's, Red is usually the norm for high end grades.  However, I find the beauty of some Browns and Red Browns to be just as appealing to my eye on the older Linc's as they age beautifully and acquire a certain look and patina. 

Sure, TPG's no doubt have a set criteria they abide by regarding applying their criteria in a certain manner, but like you seemed to allude to, I believe every professional grader (being the humans that they are) have their own druthers and mentality when it comes to assigning a final grade.  I too have been stumped by looking at Photograde and have been like, "What???".... how could this one go MS68 but yet another one, which looks even better, went MS67...... Sorry to go off on a tangent here but I have been trying to really learn the intricacies of grading which I feel can be very subjective. In saying that, I mean absolutely ZERO disrespect to any TPG service or it's professional graders.  I will still stick with the sheer beauty, eye appeal, and my love of a coin as my first criteria in purchasing assuming the price is acceptable and the assigned grade is worthy IMO. Thanks for allowing me to share my gut feelings.....

Edited October 7, 2021 by GBrad

[JKK]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:09 AM, Jblindy said:

 

@JKK Which book are you referring to?  
 

 

The ANA grading guide. It goes into detail as to which are prime and secondary focal areas, the criteria for each MS grade, and so on. Some are arguably subjective. For example:

MS65: Contact marks, light and scattered without major distracting marks in prime focal areas. [You need to learn those to grade MS Morgans worth a *spoon*.] Hairlines, may have a few scattered. Luster, fully original. Eye appeal, very pleasing. While strike strength is not listed in my copy, I have a hard time imagining a very weak strike getting 63+. Part of the issue there is that it takes some skill to tell strike weakness from light wear. Not everyone always can.

Where strike strength is legion is on proofs (of all coins that have proof examples, that is). A PR-68 or better simply must, according to my guide, have a full strike; sharp isn't good enough.

[Just Bob]

Strike, luster, surface preservation (contact marks, wear, etc.) color, and eye appeal all play a part in a coin's grade. The amount of weight placed on each depends on the grader or grading company. A strong strike for the series/year does sometime seem to have an effect on the grade. So does nice toning.

Long story short: grading is still just an opinion.

[Coinbuf]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:09 AM, Jblindy said:

 

@CoinbufYou mentioned the older slabs.  Were coins graded to a higher standard in the past.  If I find a coin in a “rattler” or a “fatty”, is it reasonable to expect the coin might grade higher if resubmitted?  Or will it grade lower?  OR is it just a shot in the dark, dependent on who is grading the coin that particular day?

 

No you should not expect that a rattler or fatty holdered coin will have a high expectation of an upgrade, this is especially true if you are buying from a dealer.   You should expect that for the most part all the old holders have been picked clean of the coins that will upgrade with two notable exceptions.

1) If you have the opportunity to buy directly from another collector that has held those coins for a long time; say from the time they were graded or very close; then your chances are better of finding some undergraded coins in the old holders.   But even then you should never expect that most of a long held collection will upgrade, it will depend greatly on the ability of the old collector's ability to spot and buy nice for the grade coins when he was buying them.   And you should also expect that those you do find will almost certainly be common dates.

2) The other area is in the low MS grades between MS61 and MS63 for coins like Morgan dollars.   Here you can still find some undergraded coins in those old holders because it does not make sense for a dealer to take the risk of regrading.  For example, if you have an MS61 1881-S Morgan dollar that is undergraded it would cost you at least $50 to crack and regrade it but the price difference from MS61 to even MS63 is at best $50, so there is simply no upside.   In those situations the dealers know that the mystic of the old holder can in many cases add value without any additional cost or risk on their part so they are better off just trying to sell the holder hype and increase the profit without the cost or risk.

Here is an example of just such a coin I own, even with the gold bean this coin would not bring over MS63 money, which is maybe a difference of say $40 at best.   This coin is far more valuable in the OGH with green bean than it would be in a modern MS62 or MS63 holder.

 

[Jblindy]

@CoinbufThank you for your detailed explanation on the older slab types and the mindset of how dealers try to market them. You brought up some points I hadn’t considered. Yay, more research when I find an interesting coin in an older slab. All part of the learning process. 

On 10/7/2021 at 2:38 PM, Just Bob said:

Long story short: grading is still just an opinion.

Simply put. I have seen several raw coins that I’m interested in but I’m still too afraid to pull the trigger on them. I don’t want to get burned due to my lack of experience. I almost bought, what looked to be, a very nicely toned 1878 8 TF Morgan. From the posted pictures I could find no flaws or wear. It looked to me to be an MS coin. The asking price was way under what it should it have been, so I asked for more pictures. Turns out there were faint but obvious scratches across the obverse field and cheek. Other than those scratches, the coin is in great shape. It’s a shame. 

@JKKThanks for the suggested reading. I ordered a copy from Amazon. 

@GBradI feel the same as you when looking through Photograde. Confusion and clarity about just how little I understand about the whole grading process. But I’m digging in and doing a ton of research. Comparing photos and trying to discern the difference in order to better my understanding. Some of it must be sinking in because I was looking at a photo the other day and noticed a bar underneath the tied bow on the reverse. I thought to myself “wait a second, that shouldn’t be there.”  So I went to vamworld and looked it up. Sure enough, it was listed there. 
 

Thanks for the responses. I’m still curious about the plus and star designators, if anyone would care to chime in. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Jblindy

[Just Bob]

On 10/8/2021 at 8:05 AM, Jblindy said:

 

Thanks for the responses. I’m still curious about the plus and star designators, if anyone would care to chime in. 

Take a look at this page by our hosts: 

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/

Edited October 8, 2021 by Just Bob

[Jblindy]

Thank you for the link. 
 

I can completely get on board with the star designator for eye appeal. What I don’t completely understand is the plus designator. In the article it states that for a given grade there can be a low range, mid range, and high range. Coins in the high range can receive the plus. How can there be a range within a particular grade? It’s either a 64 or a 65 is it not? What are the criteria for determining what range a coin falls in for its given grade? I’m not trying to be difficult, forgive me if it’s coming across that way. I am trying to understand. 

[JKK]

If you really, really want to gain depth on grading US coins, and you are willing to spend some years building up material, start taking Coin World. In every issue there is a grading analysis of a given type and grade range; for example, grades 45-66 Morgan, or grades 2-40 SLQs. What I started doing over a decade ago was removing those from the mag, three-holing them, and putting them into a binder sorted by chronological type and grade range covered. By now, they are starting to repeat themselves a bit, which does no harm at all because there is zero wrong with having an extra take on another set of coins. The discussion of the grades is in depth and is offered by an expert. Whenever I'm really wondering about grading, these are an excellent resource.

As far as the grade range within a given numeric grade, think of it this way. What if a coin meets all the criteria for 62 plus some for 63? That would put it in the high range of 62. What if it just barely made 62 by the technical letter of the law, but did not really look quite good enough at first glance (eye appeal) for 62? Maybe that's the low range of 62. Consider grading not as the gradations on the number line, but a continuum. All coins are unique if one can look closely enough. They become more unique as they enter the worlds of logistics and commerce. They do not always perfectly fit a given combination of factors for a given grade; they do not just land directly on the numeric gradations. Some fall just short of one, and we assign them to the one below--if we're grading honestly and without wishful thinking.

And on some level, there is always subjectivity about some aspect of some coin. Is this a distracting mark? Might distract me and not you. Is that little tiny bump bad enough to count as an edge ding? I might think so; others might not. So if you are looking for some sort of perfect assurance, it's like looking for perfect officiating. Even with replay, they still miss calls, even forget the ball/strike count or down and distance. There is no perfect. There is only building your understanding, looking at a lot of coins graded by knowledgeable people, and learning enough to know when one of them misses something.

[Jblindy]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:58 AM, JKK said:

Consider grading not as the gradations on the number line, but a continuum….

….There is no perfect. There is only building your understanding, looking at a lot of coins graded by knowledgeable people, and learning enough to know when one of them misses something.

I had no idea going in that coin collecting was so research intensive. One thing I am learning is that I have a long way to go. I am enjoying the research I am doing, a little too much it seems. I sit down to do some reading and before I know it 3 or 4 hours have passed. By then it’s too late to go out and mow the lawn.  There’s always tomorrow.

What is your experience with coin collectors in general?  Seems to me like  there would be those collectors who buy the best coin they can afford without taking the time to do the necessary research to truly understand the various and seemingly complicated nuances of coin collecting. Then there are those who put in the effort and time to know and understand what they are looking at and why it should be a particular grade.  I think I started in the first category I concentrated on proof and silver proof coins, mostly directly from the mint.  But as I continue, I find myself wanting to know more of the how and why.

Do you ever feel burned out and have to take a step away and let the love for collecting renew?

Edited October 8, 2021 by Jblindy

[JKK]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:30 AM, Jblindy said:

I had no idea going in that coin collecting was so research intensive. One thing I am learning is that I have a long way to go. I am enjoying the research I am doing, a little too much it seems. I sit down to do some reading and before I know it 3 or 4 hours have passed. By then it’s too late to go out and mow the lawn.  There’s always tomorrow.

What is your experience with coin collectors in general?  Seems to me like  there would be those collectors who buy the best coin they can afford without taking the time to do the necessary research to truly understand the various and seemingly complicated nuances of coin collecting. Then there are those who put in the effort and time to know and understand what they are looking at and why it should be a particular grade.  I think I started in the first category I concentrated on proof and silver proof coins, mostly directly from the mint.  But as I continue, I find myself wanting to know more of the how and why.

Do you ever feel burned out and have to take a step away and let the love for collecting renew?

Any person_of_modest_intellect can collect coins (a look back at some of the longer and more combative threads here will support that assertion). My experience with collectors is that they are diverse, from purists to doctors to saints to addicts to get-rich-quick artists to cheaters to specialists to generalists to headcases to Dunning-Kruger sufferers to pareidoliacs--as diverse as the population.

The challenge is in being an educated collector, learning what one likes, and building knowledge in that area. It means developing understanding of minting processes, how mistakes happen at the mint vs. in the parking lot, a little metallurgy, and much more. This hobby is as massive as the global history of money. Grading is just how we evaluate coins relative to one another. Learning the how and why is everything; if you're supposing someone might tell you otherwise, well, won't be me. Ask any question to which you are prepared to hear the honest answer, or at least the honest opinion. That's how we grow.

There are times when I focus more on card than coin collecting. The pandemic affected this for me. But I'm always in the market for stuff that fits my specialties, or that might open up a new specialty.

[Mohawk]

Well said, Jonathan!!! Very well said!!! 

[Coinbuf]

On 10/8/2021 at 6:05 AM, Jblindy said:

@CoinbufThank you for your detailed explanation on the older slab types and the mindset of how dealers try to market them. You brought up some points I hadn’t considered. Yay, more research when I find an interesting coin in an older slab. All part of the learning process. 

I really like the old holders and do somewhat actively search for them.   Part of the reason for that is I collect copper coins and copper is a highly reactive metal.   So when I find a copper coin I want (or sometimes just a really nice one) in an old holder I can be assured that the coin color/surfaces are stable and have not been messed with, something that I cannot be assured of with a new holder.   But I also like the history of the holder progression, in my sig line you can click the link for my old holder collection where I have showcased all my older NGC, and PCGS holders.  I actually have many other holders from other TPG's but the showcase software will not currently allow those to be seen by anyone but myself.

On 10/8/2021 at 6:05 AM, Jblindy said:

I almost bought, what looked to be, a very nicely toned 1878 8 TF Morgan. From the posted pictures I could find no flaws or wear. It looked to me to be an MS coin. The asking price was way under what it should it have been, so I asked for more pictures. Turns out there were faint but obvious scratches across the obverse field and cheek. Other than those scratches, the coin is in great shape.

This is an area where knowledge of a specific series is important, often on Morgan dollars you will see some parallel incuse lines across the cheek.   Those lines might be from a cleaning, however they also might be from the planchet prep process and are called roller marks.   Knowing the difference is key, cleaning lines are bad where roller marks are mint made and while some collectors may not like them they are not damage.

On 10/8/2021 at 6:05 AM, Jblindy said:

I’m still curious about the plus and star designators, if anyone would care to chime in. 

Everyone has an opinion on these, I'm old school and am not a fan (and thus critical) of todays market grading.   But in general from what I see the + gets used for coins that have great luster but the rest of the coin is just not quite there for the next grade.    The star is usually seen when toning is involved and the graders really like the colors.   Again this is just my personal thoughts and other may feel differently on these.

[Jblindy]

On 10/8/2021 at 2:57 PM, Coinbuf said:

This is an area where knowledge of a specific series is important, often on Morgan dollars you will see some parallel incuse lines across the cheek.   Those lines might be from a cleaning, however they also might be from the planchet prep process and are called roller marks.   Knowing the difference is key, cleaning lines are bad where roller marks are mint made and while some collectors may not like them they are not damage.

 

I’ve seen the roller marks you are referring to but your remark still caused me to pause for a second. I had to pull up the picture again to double check. I’m pretty positive these are scratches from a cleaning as they have a slight curve in them from the field on up through the portrait. They also come from different angles as seen in the pictures below. 
 

 

[Jblindy]

On 10/8/2021 at 2:57 PM, Coinbuf said:

in my sig line you can click the link for my old holder collection where I have showcased all my older NGC, and PCGS holders. 

I am trying to find this link but it’s proving difficult for me. Where is it?

[Coinbuf]

Here is a direct link to the set.

Custom set

[Jblindy]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:50 PM, Coinbuf said:

Here is a direct link to the set.

Custom set

Thank you. That’s a very nice set you have there. One day, I’ll have one to brag about. Currently, my custom registry set consists of a lone 2020 W MS69 silver proof cameo nickel.  I bought a 2020 silver proof set and it came with the nickel already slabbed.

I have another question regarding the pictures of the Morgan I posted above. I was watching a video on how to spot the difference between a high AU coin and an MS60. In the video, the NGC graded AU58 Morgan had surface scratches much like what I see on the Morgan I posted.  The poster of the video called them pocket scratches.  Do the scratches in the picture I posted above look like normal circulation scratches or are they scratches from cleaning?  How do you distinguish between the two?

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Jblindy
Edited nickel description to include W mint and cameo

[J P M]

I find cleaning scratches on a coin tend to go all one way. but also one way every different direction when you tip the coin different ways. Sometimes they are hard to see with a magnifying glass or a  loupe. I have been fooled a few times but I can always see them with the USB Magnifier when I bring them home LoL.  

[Coinbuf]

On 10/9/2021 at 7:21 AM, Jblindy said:

Thank you. That’s a very nice set you have there. One day, I’ll have one to brag about. Currently, my custom registry set consists of a lone 2020 MS69 silver proof nickel.  I bought a 2020 silver proof set and it came with the nickel already slabbed.

I have another question regarding the pictures of the Morgan I posted above. I was watching a video on how to spot the difference between a high AU coin and an MS60. In the video, the NGC graded AU58 Morgan had surface scratches much like what I see on the Morgan I posted.  The poster of the video called them pocket scratches.  Do the scratches in the picture I posted above look like normal circulation scratches or are they scratches from cleaning?  How do you distinguish between the two?

Thank you it is a fun set to find additions for and many can be found without spending alot.   I really hope that in the future that NGC will be less restrictive with the custom sets, the great thing about custom sets is the freedom to create the set in any way you like.   And I have many other old holder coins from firms like ANACS, ACG, PCI, Hallmark, and others that cannot be seen by those that view the set.    The archaic mentality of limiting those sets still to only NGC and PCGS holdered coins needs to be opened up, end rant.  

Now as to the Morgan you posted, I cannot say for sure from those photos.  My gut reaction is that they may be a bit of both, some circulation scrapes mixed with a light wipe or thumbing.  Sharper photos and of the full obverse (not just the close up) could help but ultimately you need to spin the coin under a single light source to see how the lines look and how they impact the luster.   I will say that if these were the only photos I had to make a choice from; and also assuming this is the 1878 you mentioned earlier in the thread; I would pass as the lines give the impression of a cleaning, thumbing, or wipe and 1878 Morgan dollars are much too common to settle for marginal quality.   If this was a scarcer date and the seller had a return provision I might be tempted to see and inspect it in hand if it were a date I needed.

[Jblindy]

@Coinbuf  Those are the best pictures I can get. I asked the seller to send me better quality pictures. He did, he just sent me more pictures of the same quality, so I deleted the email. I feel like sellers that post crappy pictures of ungraded coins have something they don’t want you to see. I think I’ll pass on this one.  As you said, there are better examples out there. Just gotta practice a little bit of patience. 

[Jblindy]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:45 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I find cleaning scratches on a coin tend to go all one way. but also one way every different direction when you tip the coin different ways. Sometimes they are hard to see with a magnifying glass or a  loupe. I have been fooled a few times but I can always see them with the USB Magnifier when I bring them home LoL.  

I need to get me a good quality loupe or usb camera for when I venture into the world of ungraded coins. Right now I’m sticking with slabbed coins until I read more and learn a lot more. 

[Mohawk]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:24 PM, Jblindy said:

I need to get me a good quality loupe or usb camera for when I venture into the world of ungraded coins. Right now I’m sticking with slabbed coins until I read more and learn a lot more. 

That's not a bad plan at all.  Sticking with slabs while you learn about the hobby is a great way to avoid some potentially costly mistakes.  A good loupe is also an essential tool in this hobby.  I'd make acquiring one a priority.

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:30 AM, Jblindy said:

I had no idea going in that coin collecting was so research intensive.

Whoa! This line blew my mind! If this is a common belief, we are SOOOO not doing something right. 

[Jblindy]

@VKurtB Please explain. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Jblindy

[Jblindy]

Good morning!  I’m going to keep the next question I have in here because I feel it relevant to the post title. If you feel I should start a new post I’d be more than happy to.

First, I want to thank you all for being willing to discuss your experience with the new guy. 

Now, on to the question at hand. I am looking at this Morgan dollar online. In the pictures I see fine hairlines both on the obverse and the reverse. A few days ago, I wrote this off as cleaning, but last night I was looking at some slabbed MS64 and higher Morgan’s and noticed that quite a few of them had hairline scratches on the fields, so now I’m confused as ever.  I’ve been trying to find my answers online. From what I gather, hairline scratches on a coin can come from polishing or cleaning the die. In this case the scratches would be incuse if I’m using the term correctly. In looking at the scratches in the pictures posted below, they seem to be shiny, which, to me, indicates the scratches dig into the metal. Is that a correct assumption?

Also, what grade range would you say this Morgan falls into. I’m guessing MS63 or 64?

 

[Jblindy]

This one is an NGC graded MS66

 

this one is an NGC graded MS66+

[RWB]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:31 AM, Jblindy said:

What has more weight when grading MS coins

Quick answer: Larger coins have more weight - usually - often - sometimes. Also, an elephant has more weight than an uncirculated coin. An elephant with dings, scrapes and scratches is still heavier than a coin. So....there you have it...neatly wrapped in a pachyderm.