World Coin Grading Terms 1 1

[RWB]

It might be helpful if one of the internationally astute members would post a concordance of grading terms as used in several countries.

[Henri Charriere]

 

Spoiler

No time now; will try later

 

[Jason Abshier]

If it helps anyone out German coin dealers and grading terms and language how they describe a coin for marks , rubbing , proofs and so on .
 

And I found Scandinavian grading terms as well 

[Henri Charriere]

PART ONE of a series

Unfortunately, for me, publishing this multi-ligual grading glossary has forced my hand.  

Pretending to practice the skills of @VKurtB, I pored over a Rooster  photo and, deciding it more than met the requirements of an MS-65,  FRONT AND BACK, transmitted funds and, when it arrived, knowing everything relied on my instinct and ability to interpret pixelated photography, asked my wife to open it because I was scared.

The packaging was professional but the coin was classified as uncertified bullion, which it was. The Brilliant Uncirculated descriptor was clearly at the bottom of the end of the MS scale, if it was even applicable. No foreign terminology was used because I mail-ordered it from Oklahoma.  What I beheld was a coin eligible for Federal Emergency Management Agency disasrer relief, replete with cuts, gouges,  lacerations, and chatter that went far beyond sliding down mint chutes and jostling in bags.

In other words, a comprehensive display of every example of post-mint damage was portrayed.  I recall seeing two things in the multi-page ad that annoyed me: ALL SALES FINAL and NO RETURNS ACCEPTED, and thinking, That's too bad FOR THEM!.

 

WHEN THE COIN SENT TO ME BEARS LITTLE.OR NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE ITEM BEING OFFERED FOR SALE, I INTEND TO GET MY MONEY BACK.

Note::  I would welcome any constructive advice from the coin sect where cooler and wiser heads prevail.     🐓 

Edit:  With the cooperation of my chaperones, I will walk collectors through a process I have never used before (a return) and relate what happened, warts and all, successful or not.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Ventilation/correct typos/misspellings

[RWB]

Thanks!

But....
Proof" is not a grade.

[VKurtB]

So then was it “stempelglanz”, or what? If you choose to specialize in a non-US series, you have to expect to import the “culture” of that country’s numismatists as well. There are very few countries as consumed as we are about how thin we can “slice the grading balogna”.

The fascination of a 66 vs. a 67 used to be exclusively a U.S. fetish.   Now some other countries are starting to adopt it / be infected by it. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by VKurtB

[Mohawk]

Quote

be infected by it. 

This may be just the right term for this phenomenon.......

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:48 PM, VKurtB said:

So then was it “stempelglanz”, or what? If you choose to specialize in a non-US series, you have to expect to import the “culture” of that country’s numismatists as well. There are very few countries as consumed as we are about how thin we can “slice the grading balogna”.

The fascination of a 66 vs. a 67 used to be exclusively a U.S. fetish.   Now some other countries are starting to adopt it / be infected by it. 

I own a 66 rooster for which I paid $600.

I own a 67 rooster for which I paid $1200+.

Now there are two (2) 68s out there, initially certified by PCGS but quickly and quietly cross-graded successfully to NGC.

Both coins, 1908 and 1912, are unique: 1/0. And the rarer of the two may command a $2,000. price tag.

This development, coming over a hundred years in the making, occurred sometime last month after I announced my retirement from active collecting (preferring to sit back on my laurels).

Edited October 8, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
@Oldhoopster may be watching

[Jason Abshier]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:40 PM, RWB said:

Thanks!

But....
Proof" is not a grade.

I agree , Proof was never an intention to be a grade . More of a strike characteristic but not a grade . 

[Jason Abshier]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:48 PM, VKurtB said:

So then was it “stempelglanz”, or what?

Stempelglanz I would consider and expect a coin “Gem” 65 or higher … why these dealers from other countries classify them (65-70 grade) is beyond me. But I don’t take their grading to heart it’s little over graded compared to US grading standards … I see a lot over graded world coins , I never pay the price they are asking either I offer 2 grades lower on nicer coins 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:16 AM, Jason Abshier said:

I agree , Proof was never an intention to be a grade . More of a strike characteristic but not a grade . 

Two of the most accurate comments made by members of this Forum.  

[Jason Abshier]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:37 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The packaging was professional but the coin was classified as uncertified bullion. The Brillian Uncirculated descriptor was clearly at the bottom of the end of the MS scale

You’re not alone I been there times or two when ordering coins overseas they stated it was Stempleglanz! (65-70) When I got it in hand it was more like lower end UNC. At most or just a tad toward AU ! That’s why I don’t agree with dealer’s prices sometimes I offer a grade or 2 lower … take or leave it 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:16 AM, Jason Abshier said:

I agree , Proof was never an intention to be a grade . More of a strike characteristic but not a grade . 

Exactly.

[Jason Abshier]

Here’s another I found with few more countries and how they do grading . 

[RWB]

Nice.

The full article that includes Jason's table is at: https://www.fleur-de-coin.com/articles/coin-grades

Edited October 9, 2021 by RWB

[Jason Abshier]

I never knew some countries don’t have a grade for AU coins I find that a little odd (maybe they don’t recognize AU coins) . So they either grade it into the EF category or UNC. category? All these years I’ve never noticed that 

[RWB]

"EF" tends to be "very slight wear" or what TPGs attempt to call "AU 55 or 58." This is much closer to American usage in the 19th and early 20th centuries, before heavy influence of money and profit stimulated splitting the easter bunny into body parts.

Here is PCGS's version. Note the extensive subdivision of "grades" which tend to inflate prices. This is a characteristic of highly commercialized systems and not specific to PCGS, NGC or anyone else. https://www.pcgseurope.com/grading-comparison?l=en

[The same thing happens with cereal, toilet paper, cars, etc. More versions with slight differences mean greater profits for sellers.]

Edited October 9, 2021 by RWB

[Fenntucky Mike]

Adding to the German terms:

Sp - Spiegelglanz (PL - Proof Like)

PrFr - Prägefrisch (Between UNC and XF) My interpretation of this is that the coin is in the same condition as an UNC in regards to wear/condition but it was struck from a late stage die and lacks definition and luster. Perhaps a German collector such as @Jason Abshier could comment on this one.

G - Gut (VG - Very Good)

GE - Gering erhalten (G - Good) (Low Preservation)

The last two conflict with some of the information given above but that is how I've seen the terms used in my areas of collecting. 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Fenntucky Mike
Grammar

[Jason Abshier]

@Fenntucky Mike the only one I recognize I’ve seen a few times when a dealer was describing a coin was “Spiegelglanz”  to describe strike for proofs . “Gut” ? We know that means Good German I haven’t seen it used when I was buying coins . However their is a gentleman name Ron Guth who is very knowledgeable in German coinage and history he has network of German dealers he deals with he also has nice website if anyone interested in collecting german coinage or wants to browse through and see some history. I’ve only been collecting German coins for last 10 years both raw and graded .  I’m learning something new every year as I read more and more. 

https://germancoins.com

(Edit after researching) 

after looking at words you provided Are more like to point out describing the coin but not really a grade description other than “Gut” would describe a coin graded in good condition 

Spiegelglanz (meaning  mirrors surfaces) 

Prägefrisch (meaning fresh from the mint) 

Gering erhalten (meaning low received) 

Gut (meaning good) 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Jason Abshier

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/9/2021 at 9:36 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@Fenntucky Mike the only one I recognize I’ve seen a few times when a dealer was describing a coin was “Spiegelglanz”  to describe strike for proofs . “Gut” ? We know that means Good German I haven’t seen it used when I was buying coins . However their is a gentleman name Ron Guth who is very knowledgeable in German coinage and history he has network of German dealers he deals with he also has nice website if anyone interested in collecting german coinage or wants to browse through and see some history. I’ve only been collecting German coins for last 10 years both raw and graded .  I’m learning something new every year as I read more and more. 

https://germancoins.com

Ol' Ron has some nice stuff!

[Jason Abshier]

Agree, Ron does keep a healthy inventory of German coins , he’s my main go to guy for old German state coins I’ve purchased a good handful of coins off him over the years never been disappointed . He just updated his website like month or two ago … sometimes he finds some hard to find stuff few times. He really knows his stuff when it comes to German coinage

[Henri Charriere]

You've done a great job -- that raises more questions than answers -- particularly for the non-hobbyist.  In no particular order...

Italy recognizes neither Briiliant Unciculated coins nor Proofs.

Any coin that grades from AU-55 to MS-64 in Spain is graded equally: EBC (Extraordiniamente Bien Conservadada).

In France, UNC rates higher than MS.

NO country but the USA uses plus (+) or minus (-) signs; Spain apparently uses it to distinguish lesser FINES from VERY FINES (or perhaps lesser FINES from finer FINES, and lesser VERY FINES from finer (VERY FINES) -- a range [F-15 to VF-39] that theoretically accommodates 24 separate gradations. Nice.

NO country listed recognizes POOR or FAIR. And if a seller offers you a BU or PF coin from Italy or PORTUGAL, be sure to take a look as neither officially exists.

One final thought: if anyone is up to explaining the differences among the the single-digit numerical grades assigned to coins across the Scandinavian spectrum, please free to do so

Happy collecting, World coin collectors!

[Jason Abshier]

@Quintus Arrius only thing I can think that come up with is other countries don’t have a large competitive collector’s society like we do here in U.S.A we are truly the only country that is picky about the grading of our coin probably because it’s a money driven market . To them it looks “good enough” to be an upper MS coin , but to a US collector he/she is looking for ultimate best of the best coin to send in for grading and bragging rights (we became too picky and hooked on US “TPG” standards) so it takes a lot more of “nicer” coin to impress us . I’ve talked to a few dealers overseas some of them consider us American coin collectors an “odd bunch” or “too picky” maybe so maybe not so . 

[Mohawk]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:47 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@Quintus Arrius only thing I can think that come up with is other countries don’t have a large competitive collector’s society like we do here in U.S.A we are truly the only country that is picky about the grading of our coin probably because it’s a money driven market . To them it looks “good enough” to be an upper MS coin , but to a US collector he/she is looking for ultimate best of the best coin to send in for grading and bragging rights (we became too picky and hooked on US “TPG” standards) so it takes a lot more of “nicer” coin to impress us . I’ve talked to a few dealers overseas some of them consider us American coin collectors an “odd bunch” or “too picky” maybe so maybe not so . 

This is all true.  Collectors outside of the U.S. worry more about actual completion than grades in most instances, in my experience.  I can say with ancients, most of us simply want a pretty coin and don't care much about the actual grades involved.  I know I'm focused on eye appeal and completion (to extent of which such a thing can be reasonably determined with what I collect) rather than competition.  The competitive Registry type of collecting seems to be mostly an American phenomenon and it will likely remain so.  The Registries have been around for a long time now and I think if they were going to catch on elsewhere, they would have by now.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Mohawk said:

.... The Registries have been around for a long time now and I think if they were going to catch on elsewhere, they would have by now.  

On the Set Registry here, if a collector (and there are only those we know of) chooses to assume a set in one straight graded line, say MS-67, what are the chances his great-great grand children will be awarded a prize?

If foreign, his sights are set too high.  He will have to rely on:  1) encapsulated coins, or 2) disregard the advice of a seasoned traveler and using photos as a guide, plunk down a thousand dollars or more, and discover in due course, he is the proud new owner of an MS-66 or MS-65, which is of little or no use to him.  

I would urge those considering set registration to view all the pertinent holdings, review the census and pops provided, and make a rational decision as to whether it is something worth pursuing.      🤔 

 

[zadok]

On 10/14/2021 at 12:30 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

On the Set Registry here, if a collector (and there are only those we know of) chooses to assume a set in one straight graded line, say MS-67, what are the chances his great-great grand children will be awarded a prize?

If foreign, his sights are set too high.  He will have to rely on:  1) encapsulated coins, or 2) disregard the advice of a seasoned traveler and using photos as a guide, plunk down a thousand dollars or more, and discover in due course, he is the proud new owner of an MS-66 or MS-65, which is of little or no use to him.  

I would urge those considering set registration to view all the pertinent holdings, review the census and pops provided, and make a rational decision as to whether it is something worth pursuing.      🤔 

 

...a slightly diff take on registry sets...for most of the registrants its not about the "prize" in this generation or the next, theres no guarantee that any of our children or grandchildren will have any interest in coins at all let alone any registry set that we choose...most of the registrants just want to display their sets to see how they r doing n be able to look at their sets in a visual manner n compare, achieving number 1 isnt their driving force...additionally, if u have an interest in forming a true collection of any set of coins then whether its a registry set or not its worth pursuing, the only question u need ask urself is whether the goal u set for urself is realistic n worth pursuing?...after all forming a registry set doesnt cost u any additional money *, ur collection costs u the same whether its registered or kept private....

* unless u consider ur ngc or ana membership fees...

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:59 AM, zadok said:

.... whether its a registry set or not its worth pursuing, the only question u need ask urself is whether the goal u set for urself is realistic n worth pursuing?...after all forming a registry set doesnt cost u any additional money *, ur collection costs u the same whether its registered or kept private....

* unless u consider ur ngc or ana membership fees...

Great Zadok, I beg to differ.  To my knowledge, every coin must be encapsulated to be a part of a set registry. At P---, unless things have changed, you must wait up to three days to have your coin formally "released" to you by the seller then "join" a TPGS (the sliding scale of which @VKurtB  generally regards as chump change) -- and I am not going to mention all the costs grading involved in transportation, acquisition (plus  tax, where applicable) grading based on FMV, holder size etc. [None of this applies if you are a collector of common circulated coins.]

And if you are sanctioned, short of termination on sight, you no longer exist. And if you have a set registry you were using for inventory purposes, your e-mail address, User Name, password and whatever else is/was required, passes on to the Twilight Zone.   

 

[VKurtB]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Great Zadok, I beg to differ.  To my knowledge, every coin must be encapsulated to be a part of a set registry. At P---, unless things have changed, you must wait up to three days to have your coin formally "released" to you by the seller then "join" a TPGS (the sliding scale of which @VKurtB  generally regards as chump change) -- and I am not going to mention all the costs grading involved in transportation, acquisition (plus  tax, where applicable) grading based on FMV, holder size etc. [None of this applies if you are a collector of common circulated coins.]

And if you are sanctioned, short of termination on sight, you no longer exist. And if you have a set registry you were using for inventory purposes, your e-mail address, User Name, password and whatever else is/was required, passes on to the Twilight Zone.   

 

Better solution: find raw 68’s and send them in. End of problem.

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB. If I were fit for this pursuit, I no longer am.  Not one but two MS -68's suddenly emerged in my life time.  I am 70 and the coins I am interested in, as not a single citizen residing in North Korea is unaware of, happens to be 100-year old G20F roosters. The acquisition of two 🐓 🐓 will make my current "Best French Set," better, but nowhere near perfection.

What you are proposing, as an "end of problem" cure-all, is nothing more than a pedestrian means to a far greater end: Upgrading.. Don't forget: I am a Virgo, condemned to a life pursuing perfection.  Even my wife can't help. She was born on July 17th, the cusp of oscillation between Cancer and Leo. I am on my own.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing

[zadok]

On 10/14/2021 at 4:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Great Zadok, I beg to differ.  To my knowledge, every coin must be encapsulated to be a part of a set registry. At P---, unless things have changed, you must wait up to three days to have your coin formally "released" to you by the seller then "join" a TPGS (the sliding scale of which @VKurtB  generally regards as chump change) -- and I am not going to mention all the costs grading involved in transportation, acquisition (plus  tax, where applicable) grading based on FMV, holder size etc. [None of this applies if you are a collector of common circulated coins.]

And if you are sanctioned, short of termination on sight, you no longer exist. And if you have a set registry you were using for inventory purposes, your e-mail address, User Name, password and whatever else is/was required, passes on to the Twilight Zone.   

 

...differ is what we do, makes the world go round....i guess the list u provided i consider as incidentals to the hobby... joining tpg, transportation, acquisition, certification etc etc....to me those r constants for my collections whether registry or otherwise, my collections r bout split 50/50 thirty three in registry n 36 not....u r correct, registry coins must be certified, most of mine r anyway cept my "chump" circ coins that r in albums, but sometimes those r the most fun anyway n in some instances those r the most satisfying mostly because those r the rare varieties that the tpgs wont cert yet as varieties...so they go into albums with identifying labels, however, i must add those albums r not cheap anymore either....as for sanctioning, that a personal issue but does not enter into the cost of collecting or registering.....