World Coin Grading Terms 1 1

[zadok]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB. If I were fit for this pursuit, I no longer am.  Not one but two MS -68's suddenly emerged in my life time.  I am 70 and the coins I am interested in, as not a single citizen residing in North Korea is unaware of, happens to be 100-year old G20F roosters. The acquisition of two 🐓 🐓 will make my current "Best French Set," better, but nowhere near perfection.

What you are proposing, as an "end of problem" cure-all, is nothing more than a pedestrian means to a far greater end: Upgrading.. Don't forget: I am a Virgo, condemned to a life pursuing perfection.  Even my wife can't help. She was born on July 17th, the cusp of oscillation between Cancer and Leo. I am on my own.

...to wander the wilderness until the end of time....i checked n if i added those two coins to my registry it would only garner me a paltry 2,758 points, im better off completing the set all in 68s n add at one time, more of a bang for the buck.....but mite have to wander for awhile.....

[VKurtB]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:11 PM, zadok said:

...to wander the wilderness until the end of time....i checked n if i added those two coins to my registry it would only garner me a paltry 2,758 points, im better off completing the set all in 68s n add at one time, more of a bang for the buck.....but mite have to wander for awhile.....

We are all captives of our own styles. The idea of waiting for 68’s to appear on the scene, clearly found by someone else, not spontaneously materialized by some bizarre quantum physics event, would bore me to tears. I’d rather be out there scanning ungraded examples. “It’s what I do.” with apologies to Kevin Hart’s line in a credit card commercial. 
 

This is particularly so do to the infinitesimal percentage of Coq Marianne in American plastic, as opposed to American gold, the OVERWHELMING supply of which has been melted or entombed. There has been no huge melt of French roosters, nor have significant numbers been to NGC or PCGS. 

The Coq Marianne are out there, sir, naked or in tubes. 

[zadok]

On 10/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, VKurtB said:

We are all captives of our own styles. The idea of waiting for 68’s to appear on the scene, clearly found by someone else, not spontaneously materialized by some bizarre quantum physics event, would bore me to tears. I’d rather be out there scanning ungraded examples. “It’s what I do.” with apologies to Kevin Hart’s line in a credit card commercial. 
 

This is particularly so do to the infinitesimal percentage of Coq Marianne in American plastic, as opposed to American gold, the OVERWHELMING supply of which has been melted or entombed. There has been no huge melt of French roosters, nor have significant numbers been to NGC or PCGS. 

The Coq Marianne are out there, sir, naked or in tubes. 

totally agree....i was just ruffling QA's rooster feathers a bit....for one i dont collect bullion gold coins, my preferences r 19th century US gold simply because i cant afford to collect 18th century gold.....or Scottish 17th century gold....we all got to live within our means at least most of the time......

[Jason Abshier]

On 10/14/2021 at 10:40 PM, zadok said:

i was just ruffling QA's rooster feathers a bit

Careful now , don’t fluff the the rooster 🐓 

[zadok]

On 10/15/2021 at 7:11 AM, Jason Abshier said:

Careful now , don’t fluff the the rooster 🐓 

being a fluffer has its rewards but not so much if the fluffettes r roosters....

[Henri Charriere]

PART TWO (of a series)

PART ONE of this series concerned a coin I acquired from Oklahoma (which was shipped to me, and shipped back in the same first five-sided box I had ever seen in my life).

My mentor assured me the FRENCH 20-FRANC GOLD ROOSTERS are sitting out there somewhere, many of them raw or stacked in [dime-sized diameter tubes.

Though rarely advertised principally as such, they are bullion coins.  No bullion coin I am aware of displays a face value which exceeds its numismatic or what is referred to as its melt value -- a term even @Researchcoins most recently found objectionable.  Today, I found a 2020 Lincoln Cent I would instinctually grade as a Brilliant Unciculated coin that would pass the grading definition of not only the USA, but every country which has acknowledged the term. Its fields are pristine clean; all features were struck strongly... devices  vices, mottos, grottos and even the sharply incused, perfectly legible V.D.B. (which under 30-power magnification forbidden 🚫 by @VKurtB in coin examination) is a sight to behold.  There is only one minor problem; I found it, by the turnstiles permitting access to eight subway lines at 14th St - Union Square, NYC, one of the busiest and heavily trafficked in the nation.

If it were a gold rooster it would be given a quick "approved" rinse and a TPGS would not hesitate to satisfy every whim expressed by the collector.

If a cache of gold coins were found, as stash bullion coins dating back to the Battle of Hastings, I seriously doubt they would be tubed.

My problem is the seller from whom I acquired the coin, a 1904, ignored well over a dozen scratches a gouge, and fields that looked as though they had been harvested.

Whether pristine with a cartwheel effect like the 2020 cent or a 20-franc gold rooster, riddled with chaos and commotion, the term Mint-State as used by bullion concerns is dispensed with, along with CHOICE, GEM, etc., entirely in favor of an all-encompassing BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED, absent defining numbers. And if this must be litigated, so be it. Beats serving jury duty...    🐓 

P.S.  I should like to take this opportunity to personally thank the members whom I wish to assure wrote comments I found to be humorous and not at all offensive!

P.P.S.  I should alo like to personally thank my chaperones for arguing in favor of rescinding my recent banishment and allowing me to return to the camaraderie and companionship of the Greatest Generation.

 

[zadok]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

PART TWO (of a series)

PART ONE of this series concerned a coin I acquired from Oklahoma (which was shipped to me, and shipped back in the same first five-sided box I had ever seen in my life).

My mentor assured me the FRENCH 20-FRANC GOLD ROOSTERS are sitting out there somewhere, many of them raw or stacked in [dime-sized diameter tubes.

Though rarely advertised principally as such, they are bullion coins.  No bullion coin I am aware of displays a face value which exceeds its numismatic or what is referred to as its melt value -- a term even @Researchcoins most recently found objectionable.  Today, I found a 2020 Lincoln Cent I would instinctually grade as a Brilliant Unciculated coin that would pass the grading definition of not only the USA, but every country which has acknowledged the term. Its fields are pristine clean; all features were struck strongly... devices  vices, mottos, grottos and even the sharply incused, perfectly legible V.D.B. (which under 30-power magnification forbidden 🚫 by @VKurtB in coin examination) is a sight to behold.  There is only one minor problem; I found it, by the turnstiles permitting access to eight subway lines at 14th St - Union Square, NYC, one of the busiest and heavily trafficked in the nation.

If it were a gold rooster it would be given a quick "approved" rinse and a TPGS would not hesitate to satisfy every whim expressed by the collector.

If a cache of gold coins were found, as stash bullion coins dating back to the Battle of Hastings, I seriously doubt they would be tubed.

My problem is the seller from whom I acquired the coin, a 1904, ignored well over a dozen scratches a gouge, and fields that looked as though they had been harvested.

Whether pristine with a cartwheel effect like the 2020 cent or a 20-franc gold rooster, riddled with chaos and commotion, the term Mint-State as used by bullion concerns is dispensed with, along with CHOICE, GEM, etc., entirely in favor of an all-encompassing BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED, absent defining numbers. And if this must be litigated, so be it. Beats serving jury duty...    🐓 

P.S.  I should like to take this opportunity to personally thank the members whom I wish to assure wrote comments I found to be humorous and not at all offensive!

P.P.S.  I should alo like to personally thank my chaperones for arguing in favor of rescinding my recent banishment and allowing me to return to the camaraderie and companionship of the Greatest Generation.

 

...all that being said i think u r one generation too late.....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/15/2021 at 10:55 PM, zadok said:

...all that being said i think u r one generation too late.....

With all due respect, Great One, my indigent status entitles me to free legal insistence.  Whether the seller chooses to refuse refunding my money, or not, I am not the type to settle amicably. I am going to let someone somewhere decide once and for all exactly what constitutes a Brilliant Uncirculated coin and why I do not have a right to know exactly what interval my coin lies along the technically 10-part BU continuum.

One generation too late?  It's never too late to correct an injustice.

[VKurtB]

On 10/15/2021 at 10:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

With all due respect, Great One, my indigent status entitles me to free legal insistence.  Whether the seller chooses to refuse refunding my money, or not, I am not the type to settle amicably. I am going to let someone somewhere decide once and for all exactly what constitutes a Brilliant Uncirculated coin and why I do not have a right to know exactly what interval my coin lies along the technically 10-part BU continuum.

One generation too late?  It's never too late to correct an injustice.

I see more and more people writing of the ills that led me to the “rules” of how I buy coins, but precious few adopting the remedy. All I can say is some must have “a thing” going with someone at the post office. I keep a ready supply of needles to jam into my eyes, which is a more pleasant experience than dealing remotely.

Edited October 16, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:59 AM, VKurtB said:

I see more and more people writing of the ills that led me to the “rules” of how I buy coins, but precious few adopting the remedy. All I can say is some must have “a thing” going with someone at the post office. I keep a ready supply of needles to jam into my eyes, which is a more pleasant experience than dealing remotely.

  

[VKurtB]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:16 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

  

Hang in there; the NYINC is coming.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:19 PM, VKurtB said:

Hang in there; the NYINC is coming.

You're right. It totally slipped my mind. Thanks!

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, VKurtB said:

 There has been no huge melt of French roosters, nor have significant numbers been to NGC or PCGS. 

The Melt has been cited as immutable fact by every authoritative source I have consulted with many citing even the years in which it is said to have occurred.

Between 1914 (last year of issue) and 2021, the French population grew to 65 million from 40 million.

Over 117 million 20-franc gold roosters were minted.  I don't know what happened to all the copper cents here, or whether melting was a factor, but then again, maybe the explanation is as simple as storage due to their precious metal content whether in the attic or a safety deposit box. Considering billions of cents are minted yearly, maybe I will get a plausible explanation at the convention.  Just gotta be patient and wait.

[zadok]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

With all due respect, Great One, my indigent status entitles me to free legal insistence.  Whether the seller chooses to refuse refunding my money, or not, I am not the type to settle amicably. I am going to let someone somewhere decide once and for all exactly what constitutes a Brilliant Uncirculated coin and why I do not have a right to know exactly what interval my coin lies along the technically 10-part BU continuum.

One generation too late?  It's never too late to correct an injustice.

...neither u nor i or most likely any other member of this forum belongs to the Greatest Generation....thats reserved for the previous generation, BU roosters r not in the same discussion.....

[VKurtB]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:59 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The Melt has been cited as immutable fact by every authoritative source I have consulted with many citing even the years in which it is said to have occurred.

Between 1914 (last year of issue) and 2021, the French population grew to 65 million from 40 million.

Over 117 million 20-franc gold roosters were minted.  I don't know what happened to all the copper cents here, or whether melting was a factor, but then again, maybe the explanation is as simple as storage due to their precious metal content whether in the attic or a safety deposit box. Considering billions of cents are minted yearly, maybe I will get a plausible explanation at the convention.  Just gotta be patient and wait.

I don’t know about very recent years, but for MANY years around the turn of the millennium, bulk sales of 20Fr roosters were extremely common. All the biggest mail order firms had them in their monthly catalogs nearly every month, along with several other 20 whatever’s from various European countries. But the Swiss and French were the most ubiquitous. 
 

Several firms under the Kirk Kelly Rare Coins of Greenville, SC umbrella come to mind. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:09 PM, zadok said:

...neither u nor i or most likely any other member of this forum belongs to the Greatest Generation....thats reserved for the previous generation, BU roosters r not in the same discussion.....

That's true, but the option to me is unappealing.  If you were born between 1928 and 1945, you are a member of the "Post-War Cohort," otherwise known as the Silent Generation comprised of Radio Babies and Traditionalists. So what'll it be, Great Zadok?

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I don’t know about very recent years, but for MANY years around the turn of the millennium, bulk sales of 20Fr roosters were extremely common. All the biggest mail order firms had them in their monthly catalogs nearly every month, along with several other 20 whatever’s from various European countries. But the Swiss and French were the most ubiquitous. 

I will assume you are aware that all the so-called "re-strikes" (the French refer to as "re-distributed," covering the years 1907 to 1914, were minted in 1921 and again during the 1950's and 1960's.  Why?  Your guess is as good as mine.

Incidentally, everything you've written above is as true today as it ever was. 

[zadok]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:54 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

That's true, but the option to me is unappealing.  If you were born between 1928 and 1945, you are a member of the "Post-War Cohort," otherwise known as the Silent Generation comprised of Radio Babies and Traditionalists. So what'll it be, Great Zadok?

u werent born in that period so moot point, u r a member of the boomer generation.....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:54 PM, zadok said:

u werent born in that period so moot point, u r a member of the boomer generation.....

The Alpha generation is almost over (ending in 2025)  Generation Beta is on deck.  I am "all in" on Beta, that is...until Moot Points rears its head. And with them;  THE  END.

[zadok]

On 10/17/2021 at 5:24 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

The Alpha generation is almost over (ending in 2025)  Generation Beta is on deck.  I am "all in" on Beta, that is...until Moot Points rears its head. And with them;  THE  END.

ur starting to ramble n deflect(like another person here on the forum)...original point was not to generalize n dilute references to the Greatest Generation...none of us r entitled to inclusion with them....n certainly not anything as mundane as bullion coins...i guess u can identify with any demographic group u so choose, cant imagine anyone wanting to be in Z, A or B by choice but to each his own...u n i belong to the "boomers" whether we want to or not, escape not really n option....

[VKurtB]

On 10/17/2021 at 8:12 AM, zadok said:

ur starting to ramble n deflect(like another person here on the forum)...original point was not to generalize n dilute references to the Greatest Generation...none of us r entitled to inclusion with them....n certainly not anything as mundane as bullion coins...i guess u can identify with any demographic group u so choose, cant imagine anyone wanting to be in Z, A or B by choice but to each his own...u n i belong to the "boomers" whether we want to or not, escape not really n option....

Boomer, proud to be. My dad and uncle were part of “the greatest generation”. But we boomers have an identity too. We’re the last generation capable of actual thinking. Just observe any X, Y, Z, millennial or whatever for 15 minutes and it’s just obvious.

[zadok]

On 10/17/2021 at 2:20 PM, VKurtB said:

Boomer, proud to be. My dad and uncle were part of “the greatest generation”. But we boomers have an identity too. We’re the last generation capable of actual thinking. Just observe any X, Y, Z, millennial or whatever for 15 minutes and it’s just obvious.

...too bad we arent okies then we could have a generational fight song too....my dad, us army, cbi theatre n my uncle, usmc, korea were part of that generation...the country prob never have that unified spirit ever again...having said that, this country has lost many a fine man n woman since then n im not really sure what we sacrificed was worth the results...especially now when we r giving all we paid for back for nothing in return...i know u dont want to be an okie since ur butts in bama n ur hearts in the keystone state but a song would be fun....

[Henri Charriere]

I don't know what the purpose of war is.  I don't thing the Inuit and similar tribes even have a word for it.

But we left $83 trillion in Iraq, threw perfectly good helicopters into the sea in Southeast Asia and apparently "borrowed" land from the Mexicans and Native Americans.

Bear in mind, no one, I repeat, NO ONE can push your buttons unless you allow them to.  

Now, as GoldFinger1969 is fond of saying...

BACK  ON  TRACK!

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/17/2021 at 6:14 PM, zadok said:

...too bad we arent okies then we could have a generational fight song too....my dad, us army, cbi theatre n my uncle, usmc, korea were part of that generation...the country prob never have that unified spirit ever again...having said that, this country has lost many a fine man n woman since then n im not really sure what we sacrificed was worth the results...especially now when we r giving all we paid for back for nothing in return...i know u dont want to be an okie since ur butts in bama n ur hearts in the keystone state but a song would be fun....

The Okefenokee Swamp is  

[zadok]

On 10/17/2021 at 7:33 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I don't know what the purpose of war is.  I don't thing the Inuit and similar tribes even have a word for it.

But we left $83 trillion in Iraq, threw perfectly good helicopters into the sea in Southeast Asia and apparently "borrowed" land from the Mexicans and Native Americans.

Bear in mind, no one, I repeat, NO ONE can push your buttons unless you allow them to.  

Now, as GoldFinger1969 is fond of saying...

BACK  ON  TRACK!

its purpose is what allows u to live ur life in a representative democratic republic....someone named QA introduced the Greatest Generation into the discussion in the first place...but i digress, numismatically speaking, ms68 coins have minimal impact if any on 19th, 18th century US coins n very little on any foreign country collections of non-bullion issues, for the most part that grade is only relative to modern 20th, 21st century US coinage...i do have to admit there were a few exceptions in the Tyrant Collection....

[zadok]

On 10/17/2021 at 7:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The Okefenokee Swamp is  

Oklahoma.......