Question on Grading Coins 0

[124Spider]

Hi,

I keep reading that the 70-point grading system is used for business strike coins only (with a separate--though parallel--scale for proof coins from 60-70).

And I know that the US Mint produces three types of strikes:  Business strike, coins struck not for circulation (but not proof), and proof coins.

As I understand it, the "coins struck not for circulation" are higher quality than the business strike coins.

But I do see uncirculated coins made just for collectors with PCGS/NGC certification, generally with MS69 or MS70 grades.

Do TPGs only certify and grade such coins when there are no business strike versions of such coins?  So one would never see a certified coin out of an "uncirculated coin" set sold by the US Mint, for coins which do have business strike brethren?

Thanks.

Mark

Edited August 27, 2021 by 124Spider

[James Zyskowski]

Howdy. Those are called burnished and I don’t quite understand your question. Here’s a couple answers. Proof coins can grade below 60. accidental circulation. All circulating and burnished for collectors and proof can be slabbed (certified). Grading goes from 0-70 with kinda below 0 grades possible. Some collectors like very low end coins. Thanks 🤓🙀

[124Spider]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:42 PM, James Zyskowski said:

Howdy. Those are called burnished and I don’t quite understand your question. Here’s a couple answers. Proof coins can grade below 60. accidental circulation. All circulating and burnished for collectors and proof can be slabbed (certified). Grading goes from 0-70 with kinda below 0 grades possible. Some collectors like very low end coins. Thanks 🤓🙀

So if one were to break coins out of the US Mint's "uncirculated coin set" (say, a nickel), one could send that in for certification?  Yes, I understand that that rarely makes financial sense, but "burnished" coins would be graded, and slabbed, in the same manner, and with the same designations, as business strike coins? So, for instance, one wanting to have as many MS70 coins as possible for a collection could buy sets of the burnished coins (the Mint's "uncirculated coin sets"), and hope to get an MS70 out of that? 

Understand, I don't intend to do that, but I'm curious about the process, especially that there are no MS70 coins in the census of recent Lincoln cents.

Thanks.

Mark

[James Zyskowski]

Lots of ms70. Search eBay search google. Here’s 3 different examples. Usually you can find most any date and mint mark from the 1970’s on, slabbed in most grades from 65-70   One is burnished Ms69 one is proof 69 and one is ms67pl 

Edited August 27, 2021 by James Zyskowski

[124Spider]

So people do submit the "burnished" coin versions of business strike coins for certification?

[Woods020]

Hang on I think we have some confusion. Burnishing is one type of specially struck coins, but I don’t think that’s what you are asking. And only one of the coins pictured above is burnished. 
 

There are coins struck for purposes other than circulation. You will often see these coins graded with an SP/specimen grade. 
 

What it seems you are really asking is removing coins from an uncirculated set. Those are just business strike coins packaged for collectors. Generally speaking there isn’t anything different about them and they would be graded just like any other business strike. 
 

Similarly proofs broken out of a proof set are graded just like any other proof. 
 

lastly just because a coin is in an uncirculated set in no way means it’s a perfect coin (sp/pf70). In fact they rarely will be. So don’t think if you send in coins out of uncirculated sets you will be returned all 70 grades. 

[Woods020]

This may sound harsh, but the last thing you should think about right now is sending coins in for grading. If you don’t know the basics, and think uncirculated coin sets are burnished, use your time and money to learn the coins. They aren’t going anywhere. You are headed down a road that leads to a lot of wasted money and disappointment. Learn the coins before you buy anything, much less send them in for grading. It may stink to hear now but you will thank me later I promise. 

[124Spider]

I have no interest in sending coins in for grading (as I said in one of the earlier posts).  I am trying to understand the system.  I was using grades to do that.

So the U.S. Mint's "uncirculated coin" sets are just business strike coins packages as a set, so we don't have to buy rolls at a bank to get them?  They are different sort of strike than, say, the recent 2021 Morgan dollars?

Mark

[Woods020]

On 8/26/2021 at 10:06 PM, 124Spider said:

I have no interest in sending coins in for grading (as I said in one of the earlier posts).  I am trying to understand the system.  I was using grades to do that.

So the U.S. Mint's "uncirculated coin" sets are just business strike coins packages as a set, so we don't have to buy rolls at a bank to get them?  They are different sort of strike than, say, the recent 2021 Morgan dollars?

Mark

Yes uncirculated sets, generally, are just business strikes in a special package. I say generally because there may be some sets that occasionally have an SP coin. 
 

I believe the 21 Morgans were proof but I won’t swear to it. I never really looked into them much. But they are also .999 silver unlike any of the circulation coins you are referencing. 

[Woods020]

This resource from our hosts may be helpful for what it seems like you want to learn. 
 

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/

[124Spider]

Perhaps a clearer example is the American Eagle one-ounce silver coins, which come in both proof and "uncirculated" strikes.  Am I correct that the strike for that "uncirculated" coin is a much higher-order process than the strike for the business strike coins?

Similarly, am I correct that the Kennedy half dollar, now that it's not circulated, still is struck the same way it was when it was circulated?

Finally, how can people be advertising the not-yet-issued Morgan and Peace dollars (which are not proof; specifications included "uncirculated" finish) as certified as MS70 (there is an ad in the "Coin Marketplace" here for some), if it's very unlikely that any one person will get a coin of that grade?

Mark

[Lem E]

On 8/26/2021 at 10:08 PM, Woods020 said:

Yes uncirculated sets, generally, are just business strikes in a special package. I say generally because there may be some sets that occasionally have an SP coin. 
 

I believe the 21 Morgans were proof but I won’t swear to it. I never really looked into them much. But they are also .999 silver unlike any of the circulation coins you are referencing. 

This is from the mint website so take from it what you will.

 
United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image.

 

[124Spider]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:48 PM, Lem E said:

This is from the mint website so take from it what you will.

 
United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image.

 

Thanks; perhaps that's where I got the notion that they were different!

Then back to my original question....

[Lem E]

Ok when we are talking Silver Eagles, what the mint calls “uncirculated” is actually the burnished coin (with mintmark). This is different from the standard bullion Eagle (no mintmark). The uncirculated mint sets however are not a burnished version.

[124Spider]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:05 PM, Lem E said:

Ok when we are talking Silver Eagles, what the mint calls “uncirculated” is actually the burnished coin (with mintmark). This is different from the standard bullion Eagle (no mintmark). The uncirculated mint sets however are not a burnished version.

Are the recent Morgan and Peace dollars burnished?

[Lem E]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:09 PM, 124Spider said:

Are the recent Morgan and Peace dollars burnished?

Now that, I do not know.

[Woods020]

They say they are struck with everything the same except for “slightly” more strike force. I think it’s just marketing to make collectors want to buy them for a slightly better strike. They really aren’t anything special and certainly won’t all grade 70. 
 

What it almost seems like you are talking about are SMS sets. Look at say 65-67 sms sets. They are slightly different and while it’s debated are generally readily identifiable and given an SMS grade. 
 

You have a whole lot of things mismatched together. A proof silver eagle will be much better struck than a business strike if that’s what you are asking. 
 

The Morgans are proof strikes I believe, but at a minimum will get some special treatment. Modern proof coins generally are near perfect and will grade 69/70 with rare exceptions. That hasn’t always been the case. Coining processes have and continue to improve and where it may be rare to get a cameo proof in the 50s now they are all pretty much 69/79 DCaM. 
 

But read that I sent you from NGC. Look at the levels of classification. Start with the three types of graded (MS/PF/SP) and then work down. Next look at strike classifications. Click on the detail. Then look at designations, etc…. Right now you are mixing a bunch of types of coins together to get a grading soup 

[124Spider]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:13 PM, Woods020 said:

But read that I sent you from NGC. Look at the levels of classification. Start with the three types of graded (MS/PF/SP) and then work down. Next look at strike classifications. Click on the detail. Then look at designations, etc…. Right now you are mixing a bunch of types of coins together to get a grading soup 

I did, all of that; thanks.

I am "mixing a bunch of types of coins together" because that's the confusion to me--what is the difference in the strike of those coins.  It sounds to me like the "uncirculated" coins are "struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image."  Because that's what the Mint says.  Sure, some of that is marketing hype, and they may not be "burnished," but they also aren't struck the same way as the coins struck for circulation.

Hence my original question:  If coins sold by the Mint as "uncirculated" are, in fact,  "struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image," they should, on average, grade as better than the coins struck for circulation. Do the TPGs grade them along with coins struck for circulation that people buy in uncirculated condition from banks?

And, if they're not materially different, how can someone advertise for sale MS70 coins that have not yet been struck (these are coins to be issued with "uncirculated finish")?

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by 124Spider

[Woods020]

The mint actually doesn’t call the Morgan a proof or business strike that I can find. I’m sure they will get special treatment at a minimum. 
 

Spider it is also important to note that grading accounts for anything that happens after the striking. Often times the damage occurs during the ejection of the coin, in the big bags they go into, and getting transported/rolled for circulation. Coins that are individually handled as soon as struck avoid this. That doesn’t mean the strike was special per se but they avoid any bag marks 

[Woods020]

The Morgans will come back 69/70 for 99% of them more than likely. Pre sale 70s are people that have bought up a large amount. Many dealers have ways of obtaining them in bulk by getting other bidders for them. So if they have say 10 coming in they can pretty safely say 3 or 4 will be 70 if not the majority. It’s simple averages.