Gold Coins of Europe 2 2

[RWB]

A change in alloy was assumed, but that is not necessary to change the visual color of coin gold for minting.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:32 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes, in its own way, Quintus’ set is not much different from building a set of modern bullion coins. Same thing. Never meant to actually circulate. Why else do you imagine so many European 20 Whatever coins are out there is such good conditions? These things seldom were used in commoerce. 

There are 7.8 billion people living on this planet.  Of that number, there are only 40 🐓 Set Registrants.  Here, and "over there."

There is only one serious contender here and he is ranked #3.  (The other two are unaware Honolulu has issued a major tsunami alert and are busy sitting back on their laurels collecting awards.)

Likewise, "over there" there is only one serious contender. ME! The handful of others -- and I want to emphasize I am saying this respectfully having observed this phenomenon over a decent interval -- are dead in the water, beyond resuscitation, revival and recovery.

If, as My Cousin Vinny, the Honorable VKurtB, maintains, that I am merely a collector of modern bullion coins, he has conveniently overlooked the fact that a distinction must be made between those who accumulate random date/condition coins at little more than melt price from run-of-the-mill bullion sources, and Set Registrants pre-occupied with dates, condition, scarcity and numismatic value.  The pickings are slim and the competition among the real contenders is fierce.

In the past two years, every dealer who has sent me entreaties regarding high-tier 🐓 has thrown his or her hands up in defeat.  It is not possible to sell something you don't have. I have resigned myself to the fact that though my collection is "complete" "current- and all-time finest," it is not the "best."

[J P M]

I would have to say I have never seen Quintus Coin Collection of Roosters But I would think it must be a bit more than a collection of Bullion coins  

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:42 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I would have to say I have never seen Quintus Coin Collection of Roosters But I would think it must be a bit more than a collection of Bullion coins  

I do not collect 10-Franc gold roosters but there was one for sale for well over $10,000 on the web yesterday.

These coins are presumably half the size of the 20-Franc gold roosters which contain less than 1/5 of a troy oz of gold.

Paying that much 💰 for less than a tenth of an ounce of gold bullion is not my idea of coin collecting.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 1:45 PM, RWB said:

A change in alloy was assumed, but that is not necessary to change the visual color of coin gold for minting.

I cannot give you a straight-forward explanation because even the most reliable sources are tainted with incorrect information.   One thing for sure, the composition was tweaked many times with finer gold, the elimination of silver and manipulation of the copper used.  Weight disparity is common and even the standard diameter size, 21 mm, touted by dealers and retail merchants alike, is in fact, slightly larger. No one has the slightest idea how many of the 117 million produced survived but dealers continually crow about their overall rarity.  Who knows, maybe the finest MS originals exist in private collections or museums, but without formal certification the populations are mere guesstimates and existence just conjecture.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:53 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not collect 10-Franc gold roosters but there was one for sale for well over $10,000 on the web yesterday.

These coins are presumably half the size of the 20-Franc gold roosters which contain less than 1/5 of a troy oz of gold.  Paying that much 💰 for less than a tenth of an ounce of gold bullion is not my idea of coin collecting.  

There are no (1 ounce) Roosters that trade for the spot price of gold bullion, like generic 1924 Saints ?

[VKurtB]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:15 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There are 7.8 billion people living on this planet.  Of that number, there are only 40 🐓 Set Registrants.  Here, and "over there."

There is only one serious contender here and he is ranked #3.  (The other two are unaware Honolulu has issued a major tsunami alert and are busy sitting back on their laurels collecting awards.)

Likewise, "over there" there is only one serious contender. ME! The handful of others -- and I want to emphasize I am saying this respectfully having observed this phenomenon over a decent interval -- are dead in the water, beyond resuscitation, revival and recovery.

If, as My Cousin Vinny, the Honorable VKurtB, maintains, that I am merely a collector of modern bullion coins, he has conveniently overlooked the fact that a distinction must be made between those who accumulate random date/condition coins at little more than melt price from run-of-the-mill bullion sources, and Set Registrants pre-occupied with dates, condition, scarcity and numismatic value.  The pickings are slim and the competition among the real contenders is fierce.

In the past two years, every dealer who has sent me entreaties regarding high-tier 🐓 has thrown his or her hands up in defeat.  It is not possible to sell something you don't have. I have resigned myself to the fact that though my collection is "complete" "current- and all-time finest," it is not the "best."

You need to get Europeans liking the idea of entombing their Coq Marianne in NGC or PCGS plastic. Good luck with that. I’ll bet the best sets ever assembled sit today raw in Abafil trays somewhere in continental Europe. Those coins might never encounter U.S. plastic.

Edited August 6, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:15 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Here, and "over there."

… And we won’t back ‘til it’s over over there.

[Alex in PA.]

And here VKurtB is the latest most important news from Penns Woods:

https://www.8newsnow.com/weird-news/library-book-returned-after-50-years-with-20-bill/

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

There are no (1 ounce) Roosters that trade for the spot price of gold bullion, like generic 1924 Saints ?

Unless someone knows something I don't, the closest weight class would be the 100 Francs coin which comes in at .933 troy ounces but I am not aware of any French coin that competes with, say, the American Eagle or South African Kreugerrand.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:58 PM, VKurtB said:

… And we won’t back ‘til it’s over over there.

What a shame and they just announced a successor to Brett Charville.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:53 PM, VKurtB said:

You need to get Europeans liking the idea of entombing their Coq Marianne in NGC or PCGS plastic. Good luck with that. I’ll bet the best sets ever assembled sit today raw in Abafil trays somewhere in continental Europe. Those coins might never encounter U.S. plastic.

In a dream I had, you graciously offered to become my "aerial ambassador," and I genuflected and thanked you profusely...   

[RWB]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I cannot give you a straight-forward explanation because even the most reliable sources are tainted with incorrect information.   One thing for sure, the composition was tweaked many times with finer gold, the elimination of silver and manipulation of the copper used.  Weight disparity is common and even the standard diameter size, 21 mm, touted by dealers and retail merchants alike, is in fact, slightly larger. No one has the slightest idea how many of the 117 million produced survived but dealers continually crow about their overall rarity.  Who knows, maybe the finest MS originals exist in private collections or museums, but without formal certification the populations are mere guesstimates and existence just conjecture.

Nondestructive elemental testing would reveal alloy changes. Are there visible differences corresponding to the alloy changes you mentioned? One cannot assume al alloy change simply because the surface color seems different.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 7:56 PM, RWB said:

Nondestructive elemental testing would reveal alloy changes. Are there visible differences corresponding to the alloy changes you mentioned? One cannot assume al alloy change simply because the surface color seems different.

You are not going to accept this explanation, but as Just Bob responded elsewhere, "you put me on the spot," so here goes:  I am unable to rely on personal experience but all 16 Roosters on my P- Set Registry and all 8 Roosters on my N- Set Registry lie within the range of MS-64 and MS-67.  The overall appearance is one of uniformity. Theoretically, they have never been in commercial circulation. I am merely parroting fact or anecdotal evidence as noted in a number of sources.  Evidently, any opinion I have of examples I own are colored by the collective unchallenged subliminal suggestions and perceptions of others. If I ever get my hands on something concrete you will be the first to know I've experienced my Eureka! moment.   🐓

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

No one has the slightest idea how many of the 117 million produced survived but dealers continually crow about their overall rarity.  Who knows, maybe the finest MS originals exist in private collections or museums, but without formal certification the populations are mere guesstimates and existence just conjecture.

(1)  What years were Roosters minted ?

(2)  What years were the closest to 1-oz. Roosters minted ?  And what denomination were these ?

(3)  Hard to believe they have NO IDEA how many remain of 117 MM.  Where'd they go ?  We have an excuse -- we melted all our damn gold coins in the 1930's.  What happened to France's ?  If they didn't melt them down...if they weren't re-struck (which involves a melting)...they should be out there, some of them, no ?

[RWB]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am merely parroting fact or anecdotal evidence as noted in a number of sources.

That is understood, and accepted. However, if the differences in surface color are important is some way, then the cause(s) of that difference should be explained. Likewise for alleged alloy changes. We have the technology to reduce or eliminate off-hand guesses and baseless claims. Use technology to solve these pesky issues, and then concentrate on the human parts of "why" and "when."

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:31 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

(3)  Hard to believe they have NO IDEA how many remain of 117 MM.  Where'd they go ?  We have an excuse -- we melted all our damn gold coins in the 1930's.  What happened to France's ?  If they didn't melt them down...if they weren't re-struck (which involves a melting)...they should be out there, some of them, no ?

The roosters, sovereigns, lira, etc were cycled through economies, melted, recoined into something else, bought, sold, and used for jewelry, plating 50 State quarters, contacts in your computer, etc. The form changed, but 29 million oz are mostly still around.

[J P M]

On 8/7/2021 at 8:48 AM, RWB said:

The roosters, sovereigns, lira, etc were cycled through economies, melted, recoined into something else, bought, sold, and used for jewelry, plating 50 State quarters, contacts in your computer, etc. The form changed, but 29 million oz are mostly still around.

I would think when Germany took over France before WWII they made off with a lot of items also.

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:01 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I would think when Germany took over France before WWII they made off with a lot of items also.

See the article "U.S. Mint & Nazi Gold, Merkers Kaiseroda Salt Mine Treasure, June to August 1945," in Journal of Numismatic Research, Summer 2013, Issue #3.

[J P M]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:06 PM, RWB said:

See the article "U.S. Mint & Nazi Gold, Merkers Kaiseroda Salt Mine Treasure, June to August 1945," in Journal of Numismatic Research, Summer 2013, Issue #3.

All that loot , and that was just one of many,

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:21 PM, J P Mashoke said:

All that loot , and that was just one of many,

This was the largest. The Tri-Paritie Commission identified others.

[Oldhoopster]

On 8/3/2021 at 7:28 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Oldhoopster. I am ashamed to say I no longer own a single copy of a coin book, newspaper, journal, tract, or advertisement.

Are you serious?  You don't have books?  No references?  No nothing?  

You must either have one heck of an extensive and highly organized set of internet bookmarks or have an absolute miserable time trying to do any research.  I probably open a book every time I look at a coin. Oh well, to each us own 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/7/2021 at 5:46 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Are you serious?  You don't have books?  No references?  No nothing?  

You must either have one heck of an extensive and highly organized set of internet bookmarks or have an absolute miserable time trying to do any research.  I probably open a book every time I look at a coin. Oh well, to each us own 

[There was a not particularly pleasant woman selling tchotchkes on the street and I walked up to her and handed her a tall, flawless, thick-walled glass decanter on top of which was placed a removal perforated glass strainer topped by a Rooster. I bought it years before at a street fair for $85.  I walked up to her and handed it to her without uttering a word. Stunned and startled she uttered four words: "What's this for???"  I told her "It's called E-vic-tion," turned around, and left.

[VKurtB]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I cannot give you a straight-forward explanation because even the most reliable sources are tainted with incorrect information.   One thing for sure, the composition was tweaked many times with finer gold, the elimination of silver and manipulation of the copper used.  Weight disparity is common and even the standard diameter size, 21 mm, touted by dealers and retail merchants alike, is in fact, slightly larger. No one has the slightest idea how many of the 117 million produced survived but dealers continually crow about their overall rarity.  Who knows, maybe the finest MS originals exist in private collections or museums, but without formal certification the populations are mere guesstimates and existence just conjecture.

The alloys of ALL Latin Monetary Union were ROUTINELY “tweaked” (aka debased) unofficially as a way to cheat other countries in the LMU. By REPUTATION, the Swiss were considered the best least debased, and Italy and the Vatican were considered primary miscreants. France’s reputation was kind of in the middle. The whole thing was ended by WW1. It is not claimed that the LMU breakdown CAUSED WW1, but it was considered to be A cause of bad feelings among participating nations. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB

Talking about bad feelings...Regardless, every forum needs a guy everyone loves to hate and, unfortunately on this Forum that person is me. @MAULEMALL hangs out at the water cooler, because of ME.  The pi-guy, (3.14) hangs out with his cronies ATS, because of ME.  I had one run-in with @bsshog40 and that was enough for him. @Alex in PA. ordered me to leave @Ratzie33 alone and I chose to honor his request. I resist the impulse to "follow" people because my imprimatur is poison. There are a host of people who tolerate me.  A few who like me. And two who are amused by me: @VKurtB and the Great @zadok. I love this place!  And the oft-times finicky moderators who ride herd on all of us.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Missing word.