regular wear or cleaned? 1 1

[CajunJosh]

Will be sending this in for grading, but wanted to get your opinion on the question of regular wear vs cleaning. 

Took a 10x and had a closer look, very faint marks - can only tell in certain lighting. Nothing major. Trying to figure out if its been cleaned or if its regular wear over time. 

Thoughts?

[MarkFeld]

Welcome to the forum.

 

it definitely looks cleaned. And maybe it’s just due to the images, but of questionable authenticity, too. Can you post images of the reverse?

Edited May 2, 2021 by MarkFeld

[CajunJosh]

50 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Welcome to the forum.

 

it definitely looks cleaned. And maybe it’s just due to the images, but of questionable authenticity, too. Can you post images of the reverse?

Thanks for the reply. I figured it may have been cleaned by the previous owner, but the scratches are not completely consistent with cleaning. 

I already sent it off to be graded and did not take a shot of the reverse. I may be able to get a photo of it before it was sold to me by the previous owner. Good price on it, so not bad if it is indeed cleaned. 

[Coinbuf]

I agree that it looks cleaned, I'm no expert but the letters look funky to me so I'm wondering about this being a counterfeit.

[CajunJosh]

1 minute ago, Coinbuf said:

I agree that it looks cleaned, I'm no expert but the letters look funky to me so I'm wondering about this being a counterfeit.

Appreciate the reply. Other than streak type scratches, what aspects would you suggest make it look cleaned? I had it sent in for grading, so we will see soon enough about its authenticity. Would be nice to know!

[Henri Charriere]

[Speaking strictly as a rank amateur, I would guess that there are people on this Forum, probably myself included, who could have arrived at an accurate conclusion based on just the date and asking price.  In fact, with just those two pieces of information -- and a quick look at the reverse had it been available, a decision could have been made as to whether the "coin" should have been submitted at all. Now we'll have to wait for the goddess of "turn-around" times to be merciful and expeditious.]

[Coinbuf]

1 hour ago, CajunJosh said:

Thanks for the reply. I figured it may have been cleaned by the previous owner, but the scratches are not completely consistent with cleaning. 

I already sent it off to be graded and did not take a shot of the reverse. I may be able to get a photo of it before it was sold to me by the previous owner. Good price on it, so not bad if it is indeed cleaned. 

This is the read I'm seeing from the photo, I've outlined an area of the obv field that has an odd look to it in addition to the numerous hairlines that go across the coin in the direction of the arrows that I've drawn.  Lighting and lens angles make photos a poor substitute for in hand evaluation so I may be over reading the photo, and in this case I hope I am.

[CajunJosh]

29 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

This is the read I'm seeing from the photo, I've outlined an area of the obv field that has an odd look to it in addition to the numerous hairlines that go across the coin in the direction of the arrows that I've drawn.  Lighting and lens angles make photos a poor substitute for in hand evaluation so I may be over reading the photo, and in this case I hope I am.

Thanks for the clarification. I held it at different angles and in different lighting, as was only able to see those hairlines in that bright light and at an angle. Is it even remotely possible that its just regular wear and not evidence of improper cleaning? 

[Coinbuf]

Difficult to be sure, however when you see lines that run parallel and move across not just the fields but also the devices that is a very good sign of a cleaning or damage due to the coin having been scraped across a surface.   From the photo it seems to me that the lines move across the bust so that triggers a cleaning in my mind, perhaps the graders will feel differently as they have the benefit of the in hand look.

[RWB]

Cleaning is often more distinguishable on the highest points and the fields - except close to protected areas near lettering or relief. Sliding across a surface will affect the highest relief and the rim the most, and very little on the fields.

[CajunJosh]

43 minutes ago, RWB said:

Cleaning is often more distinguishable on the highest points and the fields - except close to protected areas near lettering or relief. Sliding across a surface will affect the highest relief and the rim the most, and very little on the fields.

most of the scratches I have seen are on the fields, and virtually none on the relief. what would you say in that case?

[Henri Charriere]

[Never got a chance to learn the date -- or mintmark, if applicable.

Never got a chance to see the reverse.

Never got a chance to see that [hopefully] properly proportioned incised reeded edge.

Never got to know how the OP acquired the item, i.e., from whom and for how much -- and what representations as to its condition were made to him at the time.

And most curious of all is no question as to its authencity.  Only whether it had been cleaned or was the unwitting victim of normal wear and tear.

So, right off the bat, regardless how this lustrous beauty was described, consideration of a dozen possible upper-most grades, irrespective of cleaning and traces of glacial moraine, are off the table. I hope this doesn't come back "Details-Cleaned" because I'm gonna wanna have my money back and the coin ain't even mine!

I don't fully understand the "buy first, ask questions later" approach.  It's too bad we can't just cut to the chase and hear what our honorary soothsayer-in-residence VKurtB would have to say about these highly irregular developments.  I guess we'll all just have to wait.

Cajun guy, you done good. You're learning.  And I hope for and wish you the best!]

[RWB]

1 hour ago, CajunJosh said:

most of the scratches I have seen are on the fields, and virtually none on the relief. what would you say in that case?

Cleaning, light rubbing with a cloth or polishing material.

[CajunJosh]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Never got a chance to learn the date -- or mintmark, if applicable.

Never got a chance to see the reverse.

Never got a chance to see that [hopefully] properly proportioned incised reeded edge.

Never got to know how the OP acquired the item, i.e., from whom and for how much -- and what representations as to its condition were made to him at the time.

And most curious of all is no question as to its authencity.  Only whether it had been cleaned or was the unwitting victim of normal wear and tear.

So, right off the bat, regardless how this lustrous beauty was described, consideration of a dozen possible upper-most grades, irrespective of cleaning and traces of glacial moraine, are off the table. I hope this doesn't come back "Details-Cleaned" because I'm gonna wanna have my money back and the coin ain't even mine!

I don't fully understand the "buy first, ask questions later" approach.  It's too bad we can't just cut to the chase and hear what our honorary soothsayer-in-residence VKurtB would have to say about these highly irregular developments.  I guess we'll all just have to wait.

Cajun guy, you done good. You're learning.  And I hope for and wish you the best!]

For what it’s worth, I got it for the melt value and paid with a method of payment that allows me to recoup my money should the coin not be authentic. 

I’m covered on my end. Not sure what your problem seems to be. My bad if my actions have offended you. 

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, CajunJosh said:

For what it’s worth, I got it for the melt value and paid with a method of payment that allows me to recoup my money should the coin not be authentic. 

I’m covered on my end. Not sure what your problem seems to be. My bad if my actions have offended you. 

Cajun guy, not to worry. Nobody pays attention to what I have to say. Still, I would have solicited 2d, 3d and 4th opinions on my relic after providing the armchair experts with as much information as possible beyond cat scratches -- before submitting.  Coins have two sides and dates. That's a start. Unfortunately, the train has left the station and any discussion on the merits at this point would be purely academic.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Missing words.

[Oldhoopster]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Cajun guy, not to worry. Nobody pays attention to what I have to say. Still, I would have solicited 2d, 3d and 4th opinions on my relic after providing the armchair experts with as much information as possible beyond cat scratches -- before submitting.  Coins have two sides and dates. That's a start. Unfortunately, the train has left the station and any discussion on the merits at this point would be purely academic.

Wow, I never thought of Mr. Feld and Mr. Burdette being part of the “armchair expert” crowd.  It would really be interesting what experience/qualifications are required to make it into your True Expert category?  I hope you were just making a humorous statement and not discounting their experience.

 

[Coinbuf]

21 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

Wow, I never thought of Mr. Feld and Mr. Burdette being part of the “armchair expert” crowd.  It would really be interesting what experience/qualifications are required to make it into your True Expert category?  I hope you were just making a humorous statement and not discounting their experience.

 

QA will say anything just to get some attention as most here ignore what he has to say.

[Henri Charriere]

10 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

QA will say anything just to get some attention as most here ignore what he has to say.

I believe I made that clear.

[Henri Charriere]

33 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

Wow, I never thought of Mr. Feld and Mr. Burdette being part of the “armchair expert” crowd.  It would really be interesting what experience/qualifications are required to make it into your True Expert category?  I hope you were just making a humorous statement and not discounting their experience.

 

It is most regrettable the two distinguished gentlemen you've cited, both of whom I respect deeply, must share a platform with the likes of me, an unlicensed chiffonnier and rooster meister, but sometimes we don't get to choose who we sit next to on a crowded subway car.

Ironically, lacking followers, my most ardent fans are my legions of ignorers.

[Oldhoopster]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

QA will say anything just to get some attention as most here ignore what he has to say.

Thanks.  I haven't been active here for that long and don't know the players without a program (or at least those I don't recognize from other forums).  Appreciate the feedback.

 

@CajunJosh sorry that I can't add anything additional to the real vs fake discussion, but you did get feedback from some very knowledgeable and experienced numismatists (and a few of QA's "armchair experts" as well).  Please post the results when it gets back.  While Mr. Feld brought up questionable authenticity only as a possibility, not a certainty, something caught his eye that I missed and I think many of us can learn from it once you have the results (both for cleaning and authenticity)

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:28 PM, CajunJosh said:

 

[I think it fair to say I do not know the first thing about gold coinage.  That said, the OP was kind enough to enlighten us with a few more facts regarding his find. One, in particular, is of note. The purchase of a one-dollar gold coin at or near melt. I myself am curious as to why a similar coin presented here for member comment recently elicited a crescendo of criticism ending in outright condemnation as a counterfeit while the OP's coin escapes sniping as to its unnatural color [possibly due to flood lighting] preferring instead to dwell on such mundane matters as streaks and scratches.

By the way, I may not know much about gold but I do know these early U.S. gold coins, including the Princess and Stella's are worth a pretty penning.  And regarding the small matter of authenticity... I pose this question directly to @GoldFinger1969 @MarkFeld @RWB and, for good measure, to @Coinbuf:  In all your years as a coin collector, grader, scholar and/or numismatist, had you ever heard of any Double Eagle similarly being offered for sale at or above melt? To me, that revelation, tossed in after prodding, almost as an afterthought, lies at the very heart of this debate.  Paraphrasing Rod Serling... Submitted for your approval/perusal/consideration, etc.

[CajunJosh]

24 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[I think it fair to say I do not know the first thing about gold coinage.  That said, the OP was kind enough to enlighten us with a few more facts regarding his find. One, in particular, is of note. The purchase of a one-dollar gold coin at or near melt. I myself am curious as to why a similar coin presented here for member comment recently elicited a crescendo of criticism ending in outright condemnation as a counterfeit while the OP's coin escapes sniping as to its unnatural color [possibly due to flood lighting] preferring instead to dwell on such mundane matters as streaks and scratches.

By the way, I may not know much about gold but I do know these early U.S. gold coins, including the Princess and Stella's are worth a pretty penning.  And regarding the small matter of authenticity... I pose this question directly to @GoldFinger1969 @MarkFeld @RWB and, for good measure, to @Coinbuf:  In all your years as a coin collector, grader, scholar and/or numismatist, had you ever heard of any Double Eagle similarly being offered for sale at or above melt? To me, that revelation, tossed in after prodding, almost as an afterthought, lies at the very heart of this debate.  Paraphrasing Rod Serling... Submitted for your approval/perusal/consideration, etc.

This is a three dollar, by the way. 

[Henri Charriere]

11 hours ago, Oldhoopster said:

It would really be interesting what experience/qualifications are required to make it into your True Expert category? 

That's easy.  Taking into consideration the results of a polygraph examination, i.e. a screening tool used in interviews and interrogations, are not ad-missible in court, I would argue that the testimony of a duly vetted expert witness with the required experience and qualifications acceptable to a court or Congressional confirmation hearing would very likely make it into my True Expert category.

This is what gives credence to RWB's recent, somewhat out of character lament that he basically couldn't care less what a TPG's opinion of his coin is.  

[zadok]

15 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[I think it fair to say I do not know the first thing about gold coinage.  That said, the OP was kind enough to enlighten us with a few more facts regarding his find. One, in particular, is of note. The purchase of a one-dollar gold coin at or near melt. I myself am curious as to why a similar coin presented here for member comment recently elicited a crescendo of criticism ending in outright condemnation as a counterfeit while the OP's coin escapes sniping as to its unnatural color [possibly due to flood lighting] preferring instead to dwell on such mundane matters as streaks and scratches.

By the way, I may not know much about gold but I do know these early U.S. gold coins, including the Princess and Stella's are worth a pretty penning.  And regarding the small matter of authenticity... I pose this question directly to @GoldFinger1969 @MarkFeld @RWB and, for good measure, to @Coinbuf:  In all your years as a coin collector, grader, scholar and/or numismatist, had you ever heard of any Double Eagle similarly being offered for sale at or above melt? To me, that revelation, tossed in after prodding, almost as an afterthought, lies at the very heart of this debate.  Paraphrasing Rod Serling... Submitted for your approval/perusal/consideration, etc.

just to address the last portion of ur query....yes i personally have n routinely still purchase several gold coins at melt or slightly above n occasionally below....u just need to know where...one good example is state auctioned abandoned safety deposit boxes, especially if only advertised locally n not on one of the national online auction platforms...e.g. last november there was a local abandoned deposit box auction....besides all the watches earrings pearls etc there were several gold coins both us n foreign, of interest to u there was almost a complete run of fr 20 fr roosters from '02-'09 with multiples approx 30 coins, all mint state all raw sold individually, average price $340....there were three $20 saints n a few liberties most sold tween $1900-2000...i personally purchased the 19th cent russian roubles, german marks, french 20 fr, n belgium 20 fr....which i viewed as having more numismatic values than any of the 20th cent gold...virtually all of the coins were mint state....after purchase prices n buyers fees i ended up with approx 8% cost over melt....no clue where the op bought his coin but gold coins at or near melt r out there....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zadok]

11 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

That's easy.  Taking into consideration the results of a polygraph examination, i.e. a screening tool used in interviews and interrogations, are not ad-missible in court, I would argue that the testimony of a duly vetted expert witness with the required experience and qualifications acceptable to a court or Congressional confirmation hearing would very likely make it into my True Expert category.

This is what gives credence to RWB's recent, somewhat out of character lament that he basically couldn't care less what a TPG's opinion of his coin is.  

there r other reasons that people dont want their coins submitted to tpg's......

[Henri Charriere]

This is why I refer to you fondly as the Great Zadok.

This possibility has never occurred to me probably because doing so reeks of grave desecration.  But now that you've mentioned French 20-franc gold [rooster possibilities] I don't know how I am possibly going to get any sleep.

And who knows how many other hoards await discovery?

Definitely a valid point!

[Henri Charriere]

10 hours ago, zadok said:

there r other reasons that people dont want their coins submitted to tpg's......

Lack of confidence in the mails, inability to part with their comfort coin however briefly, and one I understand: experiencing the cold heft of history in the palm of your hand. However, now that I have joined a cult that requires encapsulation as a religious prerequisite, I have little choice in the matter.  Your observation regarding the auctioning off of abandoned safe deposit boxes may very well be the key to solving any number of mysteries regarding the unavailability of coins we know were minted but are nowhere to be found particularly in the upper-tier grades.  I am going to have to make some inquiries. Many thanks my friend!

[Henri Charriere]

11 hours ago, zadok said:

just to address the last portion of ur query....yes i personally have n routinely still purchase several gold coins at melt or slightly above n occasionally below....u just need to know where...one good example is state auctioned abandoned safety deposit boxes, especially if only advertised locally n not on one of the national online auction platforms...e.g. last november there was a local abandoned deposit box auction....besides all the watches earrings pearls etc there were several gold coins both us n foreign, of interest to u there was almost a complete run of fr 20 fr roosters from '02-'09 with multiples approx 30 coins, all mint state all raw sold individually, average price $340....there were three $20 saints n a few liberties most sold tween $1900-2000...i personally purchased the 19th cent russian roubles, german marks, french 20 fr, n belgium 20 fr....which i viewed as having more numismatic values than any of the 20th cent gold...virtually all of the coins were mint state....after purchase prices n buyers fees i ended up with approx 8% cost over melt....no clue where the op bought his coin but gold coins at or near melt r out there.

[Back-spaced to close the yawning gap.]

[Henri Charriere]

11 hours ago, zadok said:

just to address the last portion of ur query....yes i personally have n routinely still purchase several gold coins at melt or slightly above n occasionally below....u just need to know where...one good example is state auctioned abandoned safety deposit boxes, especially if only advertised locally n not on one of the national online auction platforms...e.g. last november there was a local abandoned deposit box auction....besides all the watches earrings pearls etc there were several gold coins both us n foreign, of interest to u there was almost a complete run of fr 20 fr roosters from '02-'09 with multiples approx 30 coins, all mint state all raw sold individually, average price $340....there were three $20 saints n a few liberties most sold tween $1900-2000...i personally purchased the 19th cent russian roubles, german marks, french 20 fr, n belgium 20 fr....which i viewed as having more numismatic values than any of the 20th cent gold...virtually all of the coins were mint state....after purchase prices n buyers fees i ended up with approx 8% cost over melt....no clue where the op bought his coin but gold coins at or near melt r out there...

[Back-spaced to close the gap.]

[Henri Charriere]

11 hours ago, zadok said:

just to address the last portion of ur query....yes i personally have n routinely still purchase several gold coins at melt or slightly above n occasionally below....u just need to know where...one good example is state auctioned abandoned safety deposit boxes, especially if only advertised locally n not on one of the national online auction platforms...e.g. last november there was a local abandoned deposit box auction....besides all the watches earrings pearls etc there were several gold coins both us n foreign, of interest to u there was almost a complete run of fr 20 fr roosters from '02-'09 with multiples approx 30 coins, all mint state all raw sold individually, average price $340....there were three $20 saints n a few liberties most sold tween $1900-2000...i personally purchased the 19th cent russian roubles, german marks, french 20 fr, n belgium 20 fr....which i viewed as having more numismatic values than any of the 20th cent gold...virtually all of the coins were mint state....after purchase prices n buyers fees i ended up with approx 8% cost over melt....no clue where the op bought his coin but gold coins at or near melt r out there....

[Back-spaced to close the gap.]