Prominent rimming? 0

[Sharann]

Hello my dear friends! I  hope you've all had a wonderful day. Now, on to the nitty gritty...

First of all, this is not an error question, nor is it a value question. It is one of my how and why, need to know so I can understand everything questions. 

It is to my understanding that the planchet is upset to make the rims of the coin. Then the die strikes to make the design. I want to know what is the cause of some coins' rims protruding higher than their counterparts? I can completely understand it in an off center or MAD because of what they are.

I am sure that wear can do it among many other things after the mint. But there are so many factors that play into the striking of a coin, I just wanted to know your thoughts,if you don't mind, of course. 
If the temperature of the coin, at the time of upset, could make the metal easier to form, therefore, creating a slightly more prominent rim? Or could the temperature of the coin when struck or pressure of the strike when the rim is just ever so slightly off. Or if there is no way anything I said could have affected it, that is fine, I'd just like to know to better understand. I want to understand things very clearly or I may as well not understand them at all. 

The coin pics I am attaching are the same coin, mint and date and neither APPEARS to be worn more than the other. These are not the most prominent examples of this I've run across, so they won't be as easy to see and for that I do apologize. I have the other coins somewhere and I will post when I run across them.  It is more of a touching and feeling, not a seeing, thing anyway. 

And yes, the second are upside down, hut I did that on purpose so, you'd know that they were in the same place in both pictures. 🙂
 

[Mr.Bill347]

I would’ve interested as well. Seems to me that most strikes are uniform coming out. Do you have to figure rim wear will occur depending on circulation . Funny because I spent several hours today looking TJ myself.

 

[RWB]

1 hour ago, Sharann said:

It is to my understanding that the planchet is upset to make the rims of the coin. Then the die strikes to make the design. I want to know what is the cause of some coins' rims protruding higher than their counterparts?

What a blank is upset, a proto-rim is produced. That is, the planchet has a gently raised rim flowing from the field. (See the photos in your silver dollar thread about 6 weeks ago.) The die includes the actual rim for the coin. Upsetting merely improves the ability to raise the correct die-impressed rim and lettering with a minimum of pressure and while extending die life.

[Sharann]

5 minutes ago, RWB said:

What a blank is upset, a proto-rim is produced. That is, the planchet has a gently raised rim flowing from the field. (See the photos in your silver dollar thread about 6 weeks ago.) The die includes the actual rim for the coin. Upsetting merely improves the ability to raise the correct die-impressed rim and lettering with a minimum of pressure and while extending die life.

Yes, I remember about the upsetting, but somewhere along the way I missed that the die includes the actual rim. I was under the impression that the coin is all one piece, not that a rim was put around it. That just raises more questions in my head now. I'm just gonna have to gather my thoughts on this one real quick because I am undoubtedly confused. 

[Woods020]

You are correct the planchet and subsequent coin are one piece. I think what RWB is trying to convey is that the rim is started in upsetting (I.e. the edge is raised) but the final clean rim that you see on the finished product is a product of striking. The die has the rim incorporated in its relief like other elements of the design. 
 

As far as why some have more prominent rims than others, I believe it is mostly due to pressure and/or die age. More pressure and newer dies produce more prominent designs. Similar to how proofs have more detail as a result of more pressure and well prepared dies (among other things). 

[Woods020]

Also remember the edge reeding is a result of the coin being struck in a collar. As the die impacts the planchet metal has to flow as the die sinks. The outward expansion is contained in a collar which also applies reeding, and the obverse/reverse design flows between high points and low points (the difference being the relief) of the coin. Oversimplification but hope it conveys the basic point. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Woods020

[Sharann]

2 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

You are correct the planchet and subsequent coin are one piece. I think what RWB is trying to convey is that the rim is started in upsetting (I.e. the edge is raised) but the final clean rim that you see on the finished product is a product of striking. The die has the rim incorporated in its relief like other elements of the design. 
 

As far as why some have more prominent rims than others, I believe it is mostly due to pressure and/or die age. More pressure and newer dies produce more prominent designs. Similar to how proofs have more detail as a result of more pressure and well prepared dies (among other things). 

Okay, and the more I read what he wrote, the more the word includes didn't actually mean includes as we southerners take it, lol. Includes and built-in are not the same in Mississippi, lol. 

I, too, wondered about strike pressure, but had not thought about die wear. 

[Sharann]

6 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

Also remember the edge reeding is a result of the coin being struck in a collar. As the die impacts the planchet metal has to flow as the die sinks. The outward expansion is contained in a collar which also applies reeding, and the obverse/reverse design flows between high points and low points (the difference being the relief) of the coin. Oversimplification but hope it conveys the basic point. 

Yes, sir, I got the basic point but I promise you can't oversimplify anything right now. I am not as off kilter as I first thought I was so thank you for helping me to understand that I am really okay and that I hadn't missed as much as I thought. However, I still wonder if temperatures have any impact on what I am asking. And like I said I am only asking to totally get it, instead of walking around thinking I do when I don't. 

You have done an excellent job explaining. Thank you so much! 

[Woods020]

RWB can correct me if I put words in his mouth haha. He has more knowledge in his nose hair than I’ll probably ever have. But I believe what I said to be the case. 

[Sharann]

Just now, Woods020 said:

RWB can correct me if I put words in his mouth haha. He has more knowledge in his nose hair than I’ll probably ever have. But I believe what I said to be the case. 

It makes sense so I am sure you are right... And that he was right. Thank you both. 😊

[Woods020]

If you ever get a chance to read From Mine to Mint, by none other than RWB, you will see that different coin sizes and designs also require more/less pressure to bring out the design. Some metals move more/less and larger coins require more metal to flow as a result of the larger design.  I will say it’s not the most interesting part of the book reading a chart of strike pressure, but it is very informative. So much thought and trial and error comes into every aspect of coining it’s amazing. Every element, including how many tons of strike pressure are needed to optimize between design and die life have to be carefully considered. 

[Sharann]

I took all those into consideration as well, just by thinking and what all of you have told me. It really amazes me that I thought about all these things and my question was which of the things cause the end result or was it a combination of factors. I did put it in simpler terms and did not ask as many questions in a true attempt to just get one answered. I am pretty sure that you and he have covered all the high points. I will probably get that book and read it soon because you seem to have a great understanding of the whole process and I want to as well. Thank you again for all your help 🙂

37 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

If you ever get a chance to read From Mine to Mint, by none other than RWB, you will see that different coin sizes and designs also require more/less pressure to bring out the design. Some metals move more/less and larger coins require more metal to flow as a result of the larger design.  I will say it’s not the most interesting part of the book reading a chart of strike pressure, but it is very informative. So much thought and trial and error comes into every aspect of coining it’s amazing. Every element, including how many tons of strike pressure are needed to optimize between design and die life have to be carefully considered. 

 

[RWB]

Thanks for the compliment Woods020, and I appreciate Sharann's insights into my comments. One goal of writing is to be clear, and that was evidently not the case. Woods 020 has explained things very well. But allow me to try this version. Your perceptions might help me in the FMTM-2 book.

• A rolled strip of metal is passed under a circular cutter (a little like a cookie cutter) which cuts a "blank" of metal.
• The blank is then run through an "upsetting machine." This makes the blank perfectly circular, removes any roughness, and raises a small rounded rim (or "proto-rim"). The altered metal blank is now called a "planchet" or sometimes a "type-II planchet" by old timers. The purpose of this proto-rim is to facilitate striking of the coin so that lettering and the final coin's rim are properly formed.
• The obverse and reverse dies include all of the coin's face design including the height and width of the final coin's rim. A collar die forms the edge of a coin, which can be  plain, reeded or lettered, and also restricts its diameter. When a planchet is struck by the dies, metal is forced into the dies. The small extra amount from the proto-rim filled the rim and peripheral lettering of the dies.
• The result is a sharp rim raised slightly higher than the face design. This rim helps protect the design from wear and facilitates stacking and handling on the coin.

Edited March 6, 2021 by RWB

[Woods020]

14 minutes ago, RWB said:

Thanks for the compliment Woods020, and I appreciate Sharann's insights into my comments. One goal of writing is to be clear, and that was evidently not the case. Woods 020 has explained things very well. But allow me to try this version. Your perceptions might help me in the FMTM-2 book.

• A rolled strip of metal is passed under a circular cutter (a little like a cookie cutter) which cuts a "blank" of metal.
• The blank is then run through an "upsetting machine." This makes the blank perfectly circular, removes any roughness, and raises a small rounded rim (or "proto-rim"). The altered metal blank is now called a "planchet" or sometimes a "type-II planchet" by old timers. The purpose of this proto-rim is to facilitate striking of the coin so that lettering and the final coin's rim are properly formed.
• The obverse and reverse dies include all of the coin's face design including the height and width of the final coin's rim. A collar die forms the edge of a coin, which can be  plain, reeded or lettered, and also restricts its diameter. When a planchet is struck by the dies, metal is forced into the dies. The small extra amount from the proto-rim filled the rim and peripheral lettering of the dies.
• The result is a sharp rim raised slightly higher than the face design. This rim helps protect the design from wear and facilitates stacking and handling on the coin.

I like this explanation a lot. It also gives good information on what a type 1 and type 2 planchet is. I remember the first few times I saw that it made me do some research into what that meant. So a good nugget of information to include. 

[Rummy13]

WOW, that's all I can say. It is so amazing to me how much knowledge some of the people here Have and how they are willing to shear it and their time with us that are trying to learn more. I like collecting coins, but love getting all this extra knowledge. I hope people keep asking things, so I can keep learning. Thank you everyone for asking and for the great answers, that even someone like myself can understand.

[Sharann]

20 minutes ago, Rummy13 said:

WOW, that's all I can say. It is so amazing to me how much knowledge some of the people here Have and how they are willing to shear it and their time with us that are trying to learn more. I like collecting coins, but love getting all this extra knowledge. I hope people keep asking things, so I can keep learning. Thank you everyone for asking and for the great answers, that even someone like myself can understand.

I know!!! Lol, ain't it just wonderful?!?! 

[Hoghead515]

On 3/5/2021 at 11:17 PM, Woods020 said:

If you ever get a chance to read From Mine to Mint, by none other than RWB, you will see that different coin sizes and designs also require more/less pressure to bring out the design. Some metals move more/less and larger coins require more metal to flow as a result of the larger design.  I will say it’s not the most interesting part of the book reading a chart of strike pressure, but it is very informative. So much thought and trial and error comes into every aspect of coining it’s amazing. Every element, including how many tons of strike pressure are needed to optimize between design and die life have to be carefully considered. 

It is an awsome book. I got done reading it while back and I'm getting ready to read it again. I already read most of it twice. Goes into so much fine detail. You can bout put yourself there working at the mint. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

I would’ve interested as well. Seems to me that most strikes are uniform coming out. Do you have to figure rim wear will occur depending on circulation . Funny because I spent several hours today looking TJ myself.

 

In my opinion, nearly all 2009 nickels (and dimes) are worth hanging onto. In most of the country, they’ve always been scarce.