Whitman June 2021 show in Baltimore canceled 1 1

[RWB]

The June Whitman coin show in Baltimore has been canceled. They plan to enlarge the November show.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

The June Whitman coin show in Baltimore has been canceled. They plan to enlarge the November show.

And I hope to hit that one.   2 1/2 hours from Mom & Dad's, I can make it a 1-day event unless there's a reason to stay 2 days (grading courses, special auction, etc.).

[Coinbuf]

Saw that too, I'll be surprised if there is a show in Nov.

[GoldFinger1969]

19 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Saw that too, I'll be surprised if there is a show in Nov.

By then we should be WELL into the vaccination.  No need to cancel I would say earlier than August/September and by then we should be well into high vaccination numbers.

I also think that Whitman relies more on local, East Coast, drive-to-the-event types than FUN or Long Beach with air travel.  So they should be less impacted by reluctance to fly even later this year.  JMHO. 

It's early, but I'd say the November show is more likely than not.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Coinbuf]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

By then we should be WELL into the vaccination.  No need to cancel I would say earlier than August/September and by then we should be wll into high vaccination numbers.

I also think that Whitman relies more on local, East Coast, drive-to-the-event types than FUN or Long Beach with air travel.  So they should be less impacted by reluctance to fly even later this year.  JMHO. 

It's early, but I'd say the November show is more likely than not.  

I like your optimism but I don't share your feelings on the timeline and there is much more in play then just the vaccination.  There is a new emperor and he likes having control and I don't see that being relaxed anytime soon.   Already there are firms putting together software and apps that monitor a persons covid tests and vaccinations and I foresee the new regime requiring U.S. citizens to register and be monitored before being allowed to travel or gather in groups.    Also the effectiveness and length of protection of the vaccines is still unknown outside the lab so its too early to say that the current trajectory of the numbers will continue.    2022 FUN is much more likely to happen due to the less restrictive nature of the government in FL vs that of D.C.

Add to that the fact that some dealers have been seeing record internet sales and may not be all that enthused about bearing the costs and risks associated with setting up at large shows.  I would not be surprised if large shows become a thing of the past in short order.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

If that’s true, I quit the hobby.

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

If that’s true, I quit the hobby.

If WHAT'S true, Kurt ?

[Coinbuf]

Just a guess but I'm thinking he is referencing my comment about the possible reduction or long-term elimination of coin shows.  To be clear I hope I'm totally wrong, and may very well be, we will find out more whenever that first big show does happen.

Edited to add: People are creatures of habit, once a habit is formed it is easier to continue that rather than change direction.   Buyers were forced to change from in person buying to on line buying as a result of covid restrictions, so now some of those buyers (and sellers) will have to want to change back.   From what I have heard some sellers are very happy with the increased sales they have seen on line and may resist the idea of going back to the show circuit due to the high costs.  Likewise buyers may have found that saving all the travel, food, and lodging costs of attending a show has allowed them to purchase an additional coin or two. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Coinbuf said:

Just a guess but I'm thinking he is referencing my comment about the possible reduction or long-term elimination of coin shows.  To be clear I hope I'm totally wrong, and may very well be, we will find out more whenever that first big show does happen.

I could EASILY see some shows cutting back on length.  For instance, I can easily see FUN dropping the 4th day, Sunday.  Maybe other shows drop the Sunday, too, esp. if they had 2 or more days prior.

I think some of the regional shows might be squeezed by the really small local shows plus the Big 3 (FUN, Long Beach, and ANA).  I will be interested to see how Whitman Baltimore does going forward (I've never been, hoping to go this Novembere).

I'm most curious about the TINY local shows....these have 4-15 dealers.  I've gone to a few and they were a TOTAL waste.   They're usually held in Knights of Columbus Halls, American Legions, etc.   The costs of going must be so low that they make enough $$$ to cover their expenses (whatever they are) and still make a profit.

As for the bigger shows....remember, most of the dealers go to do dealer-to-dealer trades.  I've been told that 80% of their business at these shows is this kind, not with people like me (collectors) or the public at-large.

[RWB]

7 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Likewise buyers may have found that saving all the travel, food, and lodging costs of attending a show has allowed them to purchase an additional coin or two.

They could save more by learning to accurately grade coins and avoiding useless "authentication-grading" companies.

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, VKurtB said:

If that’s true, I quit the hobby.

No, you won't. You just retired. You have a lot more time on your hands and a big hole to fill. What are you going to do, sit around whittling wood and spitting chewing tobacco into a can?  Now you can organize all that stuff you got a hernia moving and, hey, who knows, you may even start a Set Registry. The possibilities are endless. But the one thing you cannot do, indeed are not free to do is quit. The hobby defines you. You are the hobby!  Nobody leaves the hobby.  😉

[VKurtB]

18 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

No, you won't. You just retired. You have a lot more time on your hands and a big hole to fill. What are you going to do, sit around whittling wood and spitting chewing tobacco into a can?  Now you can organize all that stuff you got a hernia moving and, hey, who knows, you may even start a Set Registry. The possibilities are endless. But the one thing you cannot do, indeed are not free to do is quit. The hobby defines you. You are the hobby!  Nobody leaves the hobby.  😉

I can always sit on the back porch with two other guys, in rocking chairs, occasionally saying “a-yup” like some slow motion geriatric Tourette Syndrome affliction. I can just buy new issues from 4-5 world mints and be happy with that. One thing I WILL NOT do is deal in older coins online. I quit that long ago. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

22 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If WHAT'S true, Kurt ?

If major (and minor) shows go away. This hobby without F.U.N., Whitman, and ANA shows isn’t worth doing. 

[Coinbuf]

14 hours ago, RWB said:

They could save more by learning to accurately grade coins and avoiding useless "authentication-grading" companies.

  A completely different topic, and the type of opinion that made you very unpopular with the management ats if I recall correctly.

[GoldFinger1969]

5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

If major (and minor) shows go away. This hobby without F.U.N., Whitman, and ANA shows isn’t worth doing. 

I would be shocked if those go away.  I only went to FUN last year for the 1st time, but I am definitely going to now make it a regular occurrence.  Florida in January -- Orlando ! -- is a no-brainer.  Only thing is if they need to keep the 4th day Sunday as part of the event.  Judging by the traffic and activity I saw, I'd say no.  Make Saturday a bit longer -- 6 PM ? -- in place of it.

Never been to ANA or Whitman but will hit the Baltimore Whitman show this November assuming it's a go.  Can make it a 1-day thing from my parents with no need to stay overnight. 

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I would be shocked if those go away.  I only went to FUN last year for the 1st time, but I am definitely going to now make it a regular occurrence.  Florida in January -- Orlando ! -- is a no-brainer.  Only thing is if they need to keep the 4th day Sunday as part of the event.  Judging by the traffic and activity I saw, I'd say no.  Make Saturday a bit longer -- 6 PM ? -- in place of it.

Never been to ANA or Whitman but will hit the Baltimore Whitman show this November assuming it's a go.  Can make it a 1-day thing from my parents with no need to stay overnight. 

I think 4 days is the perfect show length. FUN is perfect. Spring ANA seems too short (3 days) and Summer ANA at 5 days seems like it will never end. Keep in mind, I am a National Volunteer, exhibitor and exhibit judge, so I am obligated for the full run. 

[Coinbuf]

22 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I could EASILY see some shows cutting back on length.  For instance, I can easily see FUN dropping the 4th day, Sunday.  Maybe other shows drop the Sunday, too, esp. if they had 2 or more days prior.

I think some of the regional shows might be squeezed by the really small local shows plus the Big 3 (FUN, Long Beach, and ANA).  I will be interested to see how Whitman Baltimore does going forward (I've never been, hoping to go this Novembere).

I'm most curious about the TINY local shows....these have 4-15 dealers.  I've gone to a few and they were a TOTAL waste.   They're usually held in Knights of Columbus Halls, American Legions, etc.   The costs of going must be so low that they make enough $$$ to cover their expenses (whatever they are) and still make a profit.

As for the bigger shows....remember, most of the dealers go to do dealer-to-dealer trades.  I've been told that 80% of their business at these shows is this kind, not with people like me (collectors) or the public at-large.

Cutting the shows back in length starts a death spiral, already many some dealers that view shows as a venue for dealer to dealer transactions and to service a few of their whale customers leave by Fri.   I have on many occasions been to the LB show on Fri and dealers like CRO are gone, their tables are empty and nothing left but a banner, if you cut out Sun the public, which is already getting used to buying on line, will have even less opportunity and desire to go.  So soon the shows eliminate Sat because dealers complain that there is not enough public attendance to justify that day.  Now its a two day show with almost no public attendance so the dealers that are there for public sales stop going and even less public attendance.  So what you will be left with is a one day dealer to dealer event where they invite the big spenders who can take any day of the week off.  Bingo shows are dead and dealers will no longer be able to justify the costs and the death spiral ends.

Granted this is just my far reaching scenario but its not all that far fetched, do you know anyone alive today that thought people would want to buy a car from a vending machine??  The large part of the American public wants more and more to remove themselves from any personal contact when buying or selling, its just a matter of time.

[GoldFinger1969]

21 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Cutting the shows back in length starts a death spiral, already many some dealers that view shows as a venue for dealer to dealer transactions and to service a few of their whale customers leave by Fri. 

Can't FUN mandate a minimum stay if dealers set-up ?  We do that with my club's annual big event.  It's 2 days (Sat/Sun) and too many vendors were packing up early-Sunday afternoon as folks who paid for attendance that day would come in.

22 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

I have on many occasions been to the LB show on Fri and dealers like CRO are gone, their tables are empty and nothing left but a banner, if you cut out Sun the public, which is already getting used to buying on line, will have even less opportunity and desire to go.  So soon the shows eliminate Sat because dealers complain that there is not enough public attendance to justify that day.

Well that's the only non-work day as of now so I think attendnace would hold up.  Remember, from what I saw on Sunday (albeit my only time to FUN) it was really dead on Sunday.

25 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Bingo shows are dead and dealers will no longer be able to justify the costs and the death spiral ends.  Granted this is just my far reaching scenario but its not all that far fetched, do you know anyone alive today that thought people would want to buy a car from a vending machine??  The large part of the American public wants more and more to remove themselves from any personal contact when buying or selling, its just a matter of time.

Not sure how Bingo enters into the equation and I think the "death spiral" might be exaggerated...but you do raise some fair points.  From a cost perspective, it probably doesn't cost more $$$ to stay another day what with cheaper flights departing on Sunday and/or Monday.

Keeping a 4th day is a small price to pay if it prevents the Death Spiral you fear.  For myself, I think 3 days of a show (plus any earlier events like courses) is more than enough.  I saw everything by Saturday and did all my buying by then, too.

Who knows, maybe there ARE some people who need all 4 days or come later and use the Sunday finale.  But it really was dead Sunday esp. compared to Friday and Saturday.

[Henri Charriere]

Would any member the last time (year) when a coin show was held in New York City?  Would the reason simply be the expense?  I don't know what else the reason could be.

[GoldFinger1969]

34 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Would any member the last time (year) when a coin show was held in New York City?  Would the reason simply be the expense?  I don't know what else the reason could be.

Not sure I understood the question, but I know the NY International Coin Show is held in Manhattan.  Last time was last January.

[Henri Charriere]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not sure I understood the question, but I know the NY International Coin Show is held in Manhattan.  Last time was last January.

Thanks. Now I have to try to remember why I never attended that, or any other, one here.

[GoldFinger1969]

59 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Thanks. Now I have to try to remember why I never attended that, or any other, one here.

I plan to check it out but from what I hear it is very high-end and exclusively foreign/ancient coins.  No high-end U.S. still like Saints or Liberty's, Busts, etc except a stray here or there.  I emailed one of the organizers and he was very clear on that.

[JT2]

I HOPR THEY DO NOT CANCEL F.U.N  they cancelled the summer show last yerar and the winter show in January this year   How ever we have a great govenor here Ron De Santis.  the state of Florida is OPEN baby!!!!....I have been Jonesing for a show for months...  my wife is starting to yell at me becuse i am watching  The Coin Vault and Rick Tomaskas on TV....she keeps saying why are you watching those shows.. you know you arent going to buy anything from them!!!  their prices are higher than a hump on a camels back!!

[RWB]

4 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

  A completely different topic, and the type of opinion that made you very unpopular with the management ats if I recall correctly.

Not at all.. you recall falsely. ATS did not like being called out when they egregiously and falsely authenticated a 1942 experimental piece as "high relief" when it was proven to be from the same hub as ordinary circulation pieces. This was at the time of the last ANA show and the perpetrators had a big inaccurate display of their "expertise." Very  embarrassing for them, more so when it was learned they did not bother to consult the author of the standard reference on those WW-II Experimental and Pattern pieces. That, Coinbuf, is not about wasting money on unnecessary grading fees or the widespread ignorance of collectors about basic coin grading.

Rather than spouting off about things you do not understand, how about helping collectors get control of their hobby skills and use them to everyone's advantage.

Edited February 19, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

Sales shows (coins, jewelry, etc.) and trade shows (occupations, product categories, ECS, etc.) sprout, grow, and fail with the flow of attendee interest, market trends, and innovating product presentation.

Coin shows (the bourse) are almost entirely pure sales. (Summer ANA usually being a slight exception with foreign mint participation and BEP demos.) The present, or recent past, insinuations have change little from half a century ago - yet technology and buyer/seller expectations have increasingly evolved toward multiple modes of contact and sales.

From what I see and hear some positive changes might include:

• Clearly identified subject groupings of sellers, utilizing non-standard pedestrian avenues and much, much better signage.
• Integration of education/information into the physical location of the bourse. Present and educate where the "students" are - not where organizers think they ought to be.
• Encourage open conversations between experts, authors and collectors - via video chat or in person at bourse tables.
• Incorporate auctions into the bourse with large interactive screens and permit viewing scheduling via 'smart' phone or large screen applications.
• Internally publicize with large visual displays, on-screen interviews, product tours and activities.
• Include ample conversation spaces where customers can "take a load off" their feet or grab lunch.

We also must recognize that city Convention Centers were designed for trade shows - product display/demonstration - and not one-to-one sales. That of itself means we are constantly trying to squeeze a sales event into a non-sales space -- so we have to make the space work for us, not against us.

[Suggest interested parties read some of the back issues of the numismatist from the mid-1950s, then 1962-64 to better understand how coin shows developed, then froze like a Texas electric plant.]

 

[Coinbuf]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Rather than spouting off about things you do not understand, how about helping collectors get control of their hobby skills and use them to everyone's advantage.

Not my job, I'm neither a professional grader or a professional numismatist, I am just a simple collector.  And if you take your shoot out of the air and pay attention you would know that I am on this board helping to answer newbie questions almost every day.  Maybe you should try that yourself instead of spouting or your normal useless insults.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, JT2 said:

my wife is starting to yell at me becuse i am watching  The Coin Vault and Rick Tomaskas on TV....she keeps saying why are you watching those shows.. you know you arent going to buy anything from them!!!  their prices are higher than a hump on a camels back!!

I haven't seen any Coin Vault infomericals...but plenty of Rick's with gold coins.....he's about 30% over FMV.  Good shows, though....informative.  If they get people into coins, worth the admission price.

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I haven't seen any Coin Vault infomericals...but plenty of Rick's with gold coins.....he's about 30% over FMV.  Good shows, though....informative.  If they get people into coins, worth the admission price.

Yikes! Really??? Wow, I gotta disagree. 

[RWB]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I haven't seen any Coin Vault infomericals...but plenty of Rick's with gold coins.....he's about 30% over FMV.  Good shows, though....informative.  If they get people into coins, worth the admission price.

Looked at a couple of the shows. Same old spiel, same old con. Seriously doubt these people bring anyone into coin collecting as a hobby. Once a buyer realizes they've been "taken" any slight hobby interest will vanish.

[GoldFinger1969]

9 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Yikes! Really??? Wow, I gotta disagree. 

Hey, I don't LIKE the prices but if someone who is totally unfamiliar with our little hobby gets exposed to it by paying a 1-time exorbitant price, they'll make it back in spades.