Crossover Experiences 1 1

[Morpheus1967]

So I had 4 coins in NGC slabs.  I sent them ATS for a crossover, because I needed one in the other guy's slab for a registry set there, and they are impossible to find in the wild.  Now, all of the coins had a perfect grade.  My hope was to obviously get all 4 to cross over, but realistically I would have been happy woith three of the 4, with the plan to sell the other two to recoup some of the cost from the submission.

Well to my surprise, only 1 of the 4 crossed over with  a perfect grade.  Luckily they did not crack the other three out, so they are still in 70 slabs.  But is this surprising?  Are they that much more stringent?  

FYI, the NGC population for this coin in a 70 is over 10,000.  ATS, there are less than 300.  

[Zebo]

Cross overs are a bit tricky. Many believe that if you crack them out you will see a higher percentage cross. Same is true going in the other direction. The two TPGs grade slightly different. A 25% cross over rate, especially on 70s is pretty poor. I do not believe that PCGS is stricter in grading. Was the one that did cross the one you needed for your registry set? If not, I might try to send it again - different day, different grade maybe. 

What are the coins that you tried to cross? 

[Morpheus1967]

I sent in 4 of all the same coin, the 2017 silver Krugerrand.  All had NGC grades of SP70.  An SP70 in a NGC slab goes for about $60.  The last one that sold in a PCGS slab went for over $500 at Stacks Bowers.  So with getting at least one that crossed, I guess I should be ok with it. 

Although, part of me wonders if it was the way I submitted.  I joined PCGS under the gold membership to get the 4 free grading vouchers.  So I used those for the crossover, as I don't really ever envision sending in raw coins to them.  I would hope they give them the same attention as sending in raw coins, but who knows.  I just find it hard to believe that I had less success in crossing over so called "perfect" coins than the average crossover success rate for the year with them. (34% for the last 30 days, 33% ytd.)

 

[Zebo]

If you only needed one to cross, your all set. Disappointing rate, however. I cross in the opposite direction and have about a 60% success rate. Did any of your coins have any toning? 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I don't feel like ATS they are any tougher on grading standards, they just don't deal in world coins as much. NGC graded 87,000 of these PCGS only 2,600. If the number submitted was similar I would expect the % grading at 70 to be closer. 

56 minutes ago, Morpheus1967 said:

The last one that sold in a PCGS slab went for over $500 at Stacks Bowers.  So with getting at least one that crossed, I guess I should be ok with it. 

Sell it while you can, I have a feeling a few monsters boxes will be submitted if people realize the price difference. For me NGC is the place to be with world coins but you do get these discrepancies with popular world coins that can drive prices up. It's nice to take advantage of them while they last. 

[Morpheus1967]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

If you only needed one to cross, your all set. Disappointing rate, however. I cross in the opposite direction and have about a 60% success rate. Did any of your coins have any toning? 

No toning.  And yes, thankfully at least one crossed lol.  

[Morpheus1967]

52 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

For me NGC is the place to be with world coins but you do get these discrepancies with popular world coins that can drive prices up. It's nice to take advantage of them while they last. 

Aren't you tied for the  number one set ATS lol?

Yes, I will also probably start an NGC set as well.  The only reason I went ATS for this set is because they don't have all the ridiculously low mintage privys as part of their set.  Here, you can't put together a simple MS set because they only have one all inclusive set.  All the privys, proofs, etc.  

[Zebo]

41 minutes ago, Morpheus1967 said:

The only reason I went ATS for this set is because they don't have all the ridiculously low mintage privys as part of their set.

That will change.mjust give it a little time.

[Fenntucky Mike]

1 hour ago, Morpheus1967 said:

Aren't you tied for the  number one set ATS lol?

Lol, yep. 

The only reason I went with PCGS slabs on these in addition to the NGC is because I saw the discrepancy in the total numbers graded. I figured it would cause a premium in the cost of a PCGS slab due to this. My set ATS probably won't be there much longer. This happens a lot with world coins, a ton are graded by NGC and few by PCGS causing the PCGS slabs to go for a premium. I'll speculate using total #'s graded between the two TPG's. Sounds like it's time to sell.

2 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

Yes, I will also probably start an NGC set as well.  The only reason I went ATS for this set is because they don't have all the ridiculously low mintage privys as part of their set.  Here, you can't put together a simple MS set because they only have one all inclusive set.  All the privys, proofs, etc.  

I get it, all the privy's can be discouraging or cost prohibitive for people who just want to collect a straight set. I imagine NGC will make a straight set by year MS only once they get to the 2021's that'll give the set five slots. I think that is probably the only reason a straight set does not exist, not enough years issued yet. So they are just lumping everything into one set for now. 

[gmarguli]

I'm not a big crossover guy in either direction. I feel that you get a better shot at a fair grade if you crack them. I've done crossovers that have failed to cross and then when cracked and submitted raw, they've upgraded. Also, I feel that PCGS is much more likely to cross a world coin than a US coin. 

I did do a few world coin crossovers to PCGS that posted grades last week.

Invoice 1: 45 Coins, 39 crossed, 16 upgraded including 4 new Pop 1/0 and 1 Pop 2/0.

Invoice 2: 6 coins, 3 crossed. Not shocked that the other 3 coins did not cross. They were marginal for their grade.

Invoice 3: 5 coins, 3 crossed, 2 upgraded. These were old ANACS & a SEGS slabs. One of the ANACS and the SEGS upgraded. The 2 that didn't cross, one was called cleaned (I agree, but hoped PCGS would net grade it like ANACS did) and the other I'm very surprised it didn't cross. 

[Coinbuf]

I have tried the cross over game a few times in the past but for the most part I see it as a waste of money.  Each service grades slightly differently and there for sure is a slab bias (imo) when attempting crossovers between PCGS/NGC each way.  My most recent experience was horrible, sent in 6 PCGS coins to NGC (all MS67) and all failed, now I know two were iffy but the other four were very solid and two even had green beans.  I only did that submission because I wanted them for a couple of registry sets, I was pretty pissed with the results and then to add insult just one month later came the announcement letting PCGS coins back in, talk about going postal. 

[Morpheus1967]

I will freely admit that I am not versed enough yet in being able to look at, say an MS67, and say with any degree of certainty that this should cross over.  I did, however, feel I was pretty safe in submitting 70's with the hope that at least 3 of them would cross.  I mean, a 70 should be a 70, right?  (I'm not really that naive, but you get my point.)

I will definitely chalk it up to a learning experience.  Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[RWB]

Couple of comments:

The coin does not change when moved from one brand to another. A corn flake remains a corn flake even if it's in a Cheerios box.

It's amazing how much money some put into "register sets" that does not involve the real value of the coins. This seems like a sunk cost, never to be recovered.

if it's a hobby and it makes one happy, that's all that matters.

 

[numisport]

37 minutes ago, Morpheus1967 said:

I will freely admit that I am not versed enough yet in being able to look at, say an MS67, and say with any degree of certainty that this should cross over.  I did, however, feel I was pretty safe in submitting 70's with the hope that at least 3 of them would cross.  I mean, a 70 should be a 70, right?  (I'm not really that naive, but you get my point.)

I will definitely chalk it up to a learning experience.  Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

No, a 70 is not necessarily a 70. None are perfect and some are close. That said be careful what you wish for. PCGS graded proof Ikes have dropped like a rock from original prices of 3 to 4 thousand dollars to now around 500 for the '71-S. And of course that is probably why NGC doesn't grade them 70. Last I looked there were none graded 70 before 1976 dated coins..... do they know something PCGS is missing ?

[MarkFeld]

“FYI, the NGC population for this coin in a 70 is over 10,000.  ATS, there are less than 300.”

” An SP70 in a NGC slab goes for about $60.  The last one that sold in a PCGS slab went for over $500 at Stacks Bowers.”

Despite the above, you were still surprised that only 1 of 4 crossed? If it were that easy, the populations and prices would be much more equivalent.

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, gmarguli said:

I'm not a big crossover guy in either direction. I feel that you get a better shot at a fair grade if you crack them. I've done crossovers that have failed to cross and then when cracked and submitted raw, they've upgraded. Also, I feel that PCGS is much more likely to cross a world coin than a US coin. 

 

Three things...

1). Cracking coins is an insult and the greatest indignity and lack of confidence a collector (likely a commodities investor) can subject a coin to.  It is a reflection on a [b'n'e] offender exhibiting latent criminal tendencies and not on the hobby at large;

2). No one can cite a single controlled study indicating a correlation between a raw coin given preferential treatment over an entombed one.  Reason? It does not exist.

3). Staff comprising PCGS in an European outpost cannot be compared with staffing in a USA office. The former as a matter of course deals with foreign and ancient coinage on a continuing, repetitive, daily basis.

Cracking is a form of deviant behavior so offensive, etiquette books have yet to devise a formal term for it.

Read it and weep...

[zadok]

....comments to comments:

...coin doesn't change brand to brand...true

...corn flake is a corn flake even in cheerios box...true, but tastes like oats

...amazing how much money goes into registry sets...true

...sunk money, never recovered...false, number 1 registry sets sell quite well at major auction sites

...hobbies make u happy...true

...that's all that matters...debatable

 

[Morpheus1967]

8 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

“FYI, the NGC population for this coin in a 70 is over 10,000.  ATS, there are less than 300.”

” An SP70 in a NGC slab goes for about $60.  The last one that sold in a PCGS slab went for over $500 at Stacks Bowers.”

Despite the above, you were still surprised that only 1 of 4 crossed? If it were that easy, the populations and prices would be much more equivalent.

You are not taking into the total number of coins submitted. Less than 3,000 have been submitted to PCGS.  The bulk submissions went to NGC on this coin, so of course the pops are going to be much higher..  And yes, I am surprised only 1 of 4 crossed.  If NGC is grading it as a flawless coin, it should be flawless, no?  Or at least better than 25%.  Am I to assume that any of my other NGC coins graded at 70, only 1 in 4 are truly 70?  Is PCGS that much more stringent in grading?

I am, of course, being somewhat facetious.  But it's not like I was trying to crossover a 1921 peace dollar graded MS63 in an ICG slab to PCGS or NGC.

[Morpheus1967]

7 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Three things...

1). Cracking coins is an insult and the greatest indignity and lack of confidence a collector (likely a commodities investor) can subject a coin to.  It is a reflection on a [b'n'e] offender exhibiting latent criminal tendencies and not on the hobby at large;

Cracking is a form of deviant behavior so offensive, etiquette books have yet to devise a formal term for it.

Read it and weep...

You've said some whacked out stuff on this forum, but this one might just take the cake.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

I wouldn't over think this too much, there are just to many factors that could have effected the outcome, the biggest being people. I tend to think that if submitted on a different day the results could have been flipped. 

Can you post a few pictures of one or two of the coins that dropped a grade, before and after being crossed? Did any milk spotting, hazing or toning develop while in the NGC holder?

[Zebo]

You also have to remember that they are grading the coin through the current plastic and not in a raw state. Harder to grade??? Possibly better to be conservative... Or - it could be politics! 

it would be nice if everyone worked off the same standards and that grade inflation never occurred -- but that's life.

[Morpheus1967]

Here are the coins that did not cross.  Any scratches you see are on the slab itself.  If anyone can point out issues, I am definitely up for some learning.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Morpheus1967
Clarity

[Morpheus1967]

[Morpheus1967]

[Morpheus1967]

And thanks for all the feedback.  I know grading is totally subjective. 

I will have to look closer at the coins this evening.  The photos I posted here are quick photos I posted on ebay.  I can take better ones if you see something I should look at.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

I see milk spotting on all three, that would drop them a grade. Some would say they shouldn't straight grade.

[Morpheus1967]

Yea, I noticed that when I uploaded the pictures.  That's why I was going to take another look at the coins tonight.  I will clean the slabs up and repost if necessary.  Thanks Mike. (Assuming that is your actual name lol).  

[Fenntucky Mike]

10 minutes ago, Morpheus1967 said:

Thanks Mike.

No problem. 

Milk spots are a pain in the rear. In this series they seem to be more prevalent (or at least more noticeable) on the 2017's with the special finish. Sorry about your luck, like you said a leaning experience.

[VKurtB]

BOTH major firms are less likely to cross any given coin from "the other guys" at a given grade than the same coin raw. It's simply a fact of the nature of the beast. They assume if they're being asked to give their imprimatur, there's a reason.

[Cat Bath]

If you cross it enough times, it will become a PO-1.....But it will get a gold bean.

So there's that