French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2024 at 3:55 PM, Henri Charriere said:

British Petroleum [BP] ain't got a da-ned thing to do with it!  

Revisit the figures I provided upthread.

Gold Rooster melt, then, was $429.82.  [Spot gold was $2302.02.]

The gold bullion dealer with the least expensive gold roosters was APMEX: $445., exclusive of dealer premium and sales taxes, where applicable.

The gold bullion dealer with the most expensive gold roosters was Money Metals Exchange: $488., exclusive of dealer premium and sales taxes, where applicable.

That was then, yesterday. Today is today, and tomorrow, may be further up or down.

One thing I have to give @zadok credit for was opening my eyes up to the fact that F20FR GR are bullion. Of course, gold spot price is less of a consideration the higher you go up the Mint State scale.  The owners of the finest examples, I believe it safe to say, do not fret over fluctuations.

Yup. Dealers in the Kirk Kelly network of dealerships regularly had so-called mint state Coq Marianne in their monthly mail order flyers a few decades ago. Of course, they were not necessarily really high grades. The frustrating thing is that there are almost definitely more “registry worthy” pieces out there, but they are “trapped” in countries in which there is no widely recognized difference between MS65 and MS70. Yes, our fascination with single points and pluses and stars is pretty uniquely an American fetish. 

Edited May 5 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But with the BP they were above melt, right ? 

I wonder if that was peculiar to Roosters or maybe also the case with other gold coins, MS or not ?  Could be someone willing to ditch them below melt (again, pre-BP) because they think gold is going to drop in price. 

...no it was basically that way for all of the bullion related issues, swiss francs, sovereigns etc etc...even if in mint state, the only time any significant premium over bullion melt was if very high grades or top pops, as u mention with the bp n taxes the end price would be at or slightly over bullion, but not all buyers pay the taxes so one can actually buy at or slightly below bullion...as i have often stated this series n many others that served as bullion place holders dont have a big collector base, there r a few registry set collectors n in the roosters some interest in the pre restike issues but its very minimal, thats one reason u see so many unslabbed mint state coins, if it doesnt slab top pop u dont recover ur certification costs otherwise ud see dealers slabbing a hundred at a time as bulk submissions but there r not that many collectors to buy the mid range uncs....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't see articles in the papers of the day talking about the citizens of the UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc.....engaging in the hoarding of gold and gold coins to the extent that the French did.  Clearly, a cultural thing. Europe overall much more into gold coins than here in the States.   French farmers, middle class, and professional class (doctors, lawyers, small businessmen) leading the charge. Not sure why...could go back to Napoleon.  No history of devestating wars that I am aware of or hyperinflations in the 1800's.  WWI did have an impact on the accumulation tendencies of the 1920's and 1930's but not sure about the herd instinct before then.

Zadok....article in August 1933 NYT said that 35 billion French Francs had been hoarded, or about $2 BB U.S.  Not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold.

Even before the Depression hit, I think this was a response to WW I.   WW I had such an effect on the French psyche....the trench warfare....the evsiceration of millions of French men (in some towns, the ratio of eligible marrying-age females to men was 6-to-1 ).  Clearly scarred, the same country that largely held off the Kaiser's armies in 1914-18 folded in 6 weeks less than 25 years later when facing the Nazis.

I think this accounts for part of the massive hoarding in France relative to other countries. 

Edited May 6 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 :

Re:    "35 BB French Francs had been hoarded or about 2 BB U.S....not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold."

If I may muddy up the waters, only 117-1/2 MM 20-Francs gold roosters were minted, only 1/3 of which, the "originals," are relevant to the conversation, having been struck to 1906.

The "restrikes" (1907 to 1914) were re-minted between 1951 to 1960. The 1914 was re-minted in 202,359 copies in 1921.

Clearly, the number of gold roosters available for melting, some 43 MM played a miniscule role when one accepts 35 BB pieces were involved overall.

 

[zadok]

On 5/6/2024 at 2:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Zadok....article in August 1933 NYT said that 35 billion French Francs had been hoarded, or about $2 BB U.S.  Not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold.

Even before the Depression hit, I think this was a response to WW I.   WW I had such an effect on the French psyche....the trench warfare....the evsiceration of millions of French men (in some towns, the ratio of eligible marrying-age females to men was 6-to-1 ).  Clearly scarred, the same country that largely held off the Kaiser's armies in 1914-18 folded in 6 weeks less than 25 years later when facing the Nazis.

I think this accounts for part of the massive hoarding in France relative to other countries. 

...i definitely like the 6 to 1 ratio...a lot of the hoarded gold most likely ended up in nazi hands, but im sure every one hoarded everything they could, question would be just what gold was available to hoard?...obviously the restrike roosters prob not hoarded since never really put into circulation...lots of diff corollaries to follow to try determine what mite have shown up in hoards etc...but sort of need to know what was there to start with....

[VKurtB]

On 5/6/2024 at 11:51 AM, zadok said:

...i definitely like the 6 to 1 ratio...a lot of the hoarded gold most likely ended up in nazi hands, but im sure every one hoarded everything they could, question would be just what gold was available to hoard?...obviously the restrike roosters prob not hoarded since never really put into circulation...lots of diff corollaries to follow to try determine what mite have shown up in hoards etc...but sort of need to know what was there to start with....

The post-war Swiss Vrenellis (1947B and 1949B) were allegedly made from Holocaust victims' gold false teeth removed by the Nazis. 

 

Edited May 6 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/6/2024 at 11:39 AM, Henri Charriere said:

@GoldFinger1969 : Re:"35 BB French Francs had been hoarded or about 2 BB U.S....not all gold, some silver, but probably mostly gold." If I may muddy up the waters, only 117-1/2 MM 20-Francs gold roosters were minted, only1/3 of which, the "originals,"are relevant to the conversation, having been struck to 1906. The "restrikes" (1907 to 1914) were re-minted between1951to1960. The 1914 was re-minted in 202,359 copies in 1921. Clearly, the number of gold roosters available for melting,some43M played a miniscule role when one accepts 35 BB pieces were involved overall.

For their life savings, different from their day-to-day commerce needs, a larger coin was preferable.  Double Eagles fit the bill, Henri.

That's why this article caught my attention.  $20 is right in the sweet spot; the bar would have been over $8,000. 

Edited May 7 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/6/2024 at 2:36 PM, VKurtB said:

The post-war Swiss Vrenellis (1947B and 1949B) were allegedly made from Holocaust victims' gold false teeth removed by the Nazis. 

As sick as it is, probably could say that about lots of post-1945 Euroepan gold coins/bars.

This was one of the themes underlining the 1976 thriller, MARATHON MAN starring Sir Lawrence Olivier, Dustin Hoffman, and Roy Scheider.  GREAT movie !! 

"Is it safe...."  

Edited May 7 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/6/2024 at 8:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As sick as it is, probably could say that about lots of post-1945 Euroepan gold coins/bars.

Indeed. And likely with good reason, 

[Henri Charriere]

  Q.A.:  I understand you solved a mystery that's been dogging me for the past five years!  Every source I have consulted said the composition of F20F GRs, "original" and "restrike" is comprised of the same exact composition; 90% gold and 10% copper. Your research indicates otherwise!

🐓:  Correctamundo!  Allow me to add a few facts.  "In 1905, the law separating church and state was passed.  The change in legislation led to a change in the motto on the edge of the 20-Francs Maranne Coq coin in 1907 "Dieu Protege la France" ("God Protect France") was replaced by ("Liberte, equalite, fraternite").  In addition, the label wreath was replaced by an oak branch as if to anchor the power of a strong state.

"In terms of size and weight, the Marianne Coq 20-Francs coin is based on the standard 20-Francs coin created by Napoleon I.  It weighs 6.45 grams, is 90% pure gold, i.e., a fine gold weight of 5.81 g. with a diameter of 21 millimeters and a thickness of 1.25 mm.

(Now we come to the fresh information, dug up by Ricky, an inquisitive Rooster if ever there was one...)

The "refrappes Pinay"

"The Marianne Coq coin is also historically exceptional, as it was melted again between 1951 and 1960 in what is known [locally] as the Pinay re-strike.

"In 1948, at the end of the Second World War, gold stocks had been melted down or lost, and coins were badly damaged or cropped. The Banque de France decided to reopen the gold market to revitalize the economy.  To do so, it restruck the popular coin that symbolized strong power:  the Marianne Coq.

"The original dies were used and earlier engraved images were reused. Between 1950 and 1960, 37 million 20 francs Marianne Coq gold coins were re-engraved dating from 1907 to 1914.

"How to recognize them?  In theory, it is difficult to tell the difference berween Pinay refrappes and originals.  However, most of them are in excellent condition, having never been in circulation.  As the machines used for minting are not the same, more precise details can be seen on the Pinay refrapees.  Finally, a mass spectrometer analysis reveals a slightly different metallic composition between the origInal 20 francs coq and the refrappes.  On average the original coins contain 902.63 thousands of gold compared with 900.39 thousandths of gold for the refrapees.  This results in hue and a slightly more coppery color.  (Emphases in bold, throughout, are mine.)

Q.A. Great job!  Before you run off on your next project...any References?

🐓  : Yes. Thomas Numismatics (which lists the five sources they relied on on their website: thomasnumismatics.com

(Posted with the express cooperation and patience of NGC Moderation which  retains the right to edit or delete this post as it sees fit, at their discretion.)

[zadok]

On 5/17/2024 at 9:21 PM, Henri Charriere said:

🐓:  The spot silver price as of today, Friday, May 17, 2024 is:  $ 31.48.

The gold melt value of a French 20-francs gold rooster is;  $ 445.88.

To be blunt about it, as silver moves above $30/oz., it is virtually impossible to purchase one -- any date, any condition -- for less than $500., and if you do it is simply because the seller is unaware of the incremental increases in price recently.

...so wrong on both counts....

[zadok]

On 5/19/2024 at 1:22 PM, Henri Charriere said:

YOU ARE CORRECT!

ONLY YOU... 

•  KNOW THE PRICE OF SPOT SILVER AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT;

•  KNOW THE PRICE OF SPOT GOLD AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT;

▪︎  KNOW THE GOLD MELT PRICE OF THE 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT;

•  KNOW HOW TO AVOID A DEALER'S PRICE, BUYER'S PREMIUM, AND WHERE APPLICABLE, A STATE'S SALES TAX.

THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME YOU, UNLIKE MOST PEOPLE, NJMISMATISTS OR NOT, KNOW THE NAMES OF THE PRESIDENTS THAT APPEAR ON THE $100 AND $10,000 BILLS AS WELL AS THE FULL LEGAL NAMES OF THE GENTLEMAN WHO SHOT PRESIDENT McKINLEY, WHERE, WHEN, WHY AND THE LOCATION OF THE PRISON AND METHOD OF EXECUTION USED TO PUT HIM TO DEATH WITHIN SIX WEEKS OF THE ASSASINATION.

(I WOULD HAVE USED THE EXAMPLES OF THE ASSASINATIONS OF THE ARCHDUKE FRANZ FERDINAND AND SS-REICHSPROTEKTOR REINHARD HEYDRICH, BUT REALIZED YOU CANNOT SPELL THEIR NAMES MUCH LESS PRONOUNCE THEM CORRECTLY.

 

...surely east harlem has some kind of public health service....

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2024 at 2:41 PM, zadok said:

...surely east harlem has some kind of public health service....

Morningside Heights, where comedian George Carlin grew up. He said to make it sound cool, they called it White Harlem. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:19 PM, VKurtB said:

Morningside Heights, where comedian George Carlin grew up. He said to make it sound cool, they called it White Harlem. 

A bunch of us went to Rao's in the old Italian Harlem section of Manhattan when we graduated college in the mid-1980's. 

Dinner was fantastic. 

Came out, and 2 of the 4 tires were missing from our car. 

Haven't been back since. 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

French Gold Hoarding:  I've been perusing The NYT Time Machine archives....the amount of "gold coin" and "gold hoarding" articles that deal ONLY with France is astounding (maybe I'm not using the thing correctly, but I'd say 80-90%).  Not finding anything on German, Swiss, or British hoards anywhere near that of France.

I am more and more convinced that the WW I trauma that I really first read about in John Keegan's masterful book on World War 1 really influenced how the French became close to paranoid regarding their gold holdings.  We saw the destruction of the French psyche in how they folded in 6 weeks in WW II compared to how they fought Germany to a stalemate pretty much solo for 4 years in WW I.  That same traumatic effect seems to have impacted how the French viewed gold as to quote James Grant who noted that a crowd 1-mile long hit the Bank of France in July 1914 as the conflict approached that "...no matter who was going to win, the Franc was certain to be a loser." 

Anyway, the Napoleon coin comes up from time to time...no mentions of Roosters....but some interesting articles from different decades, might be of interest to Henri or anybody curious about the entire Hoarding Mystique or these occasional panics in gold pricing during Bretton Woods.

Interesting how there seemed to be an article on gold every day in the NYT Business section...even today, you don't see mentions of The Fed every day in The NYT or The WSJ. 

Had to transform PDFs into JPEGs since we STILL can't post PDFs (come on, NGC Mods !! )

Edited June 4 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

dupe

Edited June 4 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

As my faithful followers -- and my biggest fans, those who've keystroked me into oblivion (my army of Ignorers) know -- it has been three (3) years since I added a coin to either of the two Set Registries I own, here and "there".

I seriously contemplated acquiring what one "house of coins" with a sterling reputatjon to match, called a "Counterfeit Forgery," but  the backlash on the Forum while not intense, was nonetheless persuasive.

I thought rising gold prices would prompt French peasants, long believed to hoard considerable numbers of gold roosters (see article by fellow member GF1969 upthread) to shake their trees.  That failed to materialize.

I settled for the next best thing and sent the proprietor(s) of Thomas Numismatics in Meylan, France an amount in physical U.S. currency, to cover all anticipated costs for an odd test "coin"  The details regarding this transaction that no one in their right mind would engage in -- an arguably "sight-unseen" purchase from an establishment I have only heard of and a contact I have never met, do not know, have never spoken or written to, is described in more detail in the Topic: "Sending Cash Through the Mail."

In a few words the "coin" is a uniface (one side only) hexagonal planchet, PCGS-certified SP-62, Highest grade (the only example) Top Pop., 1/0 UNIQUE; unlisted in reference books - unpublished -- undated (ND) Not Determined, with no mintmark (basically of unknown provenance though my guess is circa 1898) and the work of Jean Clement Chaplain (Marianne type) whose name appears in small print on every 20-Francs gold rooster..

It cost me all of $2.40 to send T.N. $2,000 in U.S. currency through the international mails, unregistered, uncertified no RRR with no tracking number and uninsured in a greeting card, so as not to attract attention.

The cost of shipping this test "coin" to me is $60.00. It took them two weeks to acknowledge receipt of my order and will take another estimated two weeks to send it to me, privately insured.

The link is:  https:www.//pcgseurope.com/cert/42188163

The precise cost involves their conversion of USD into €euros as well as the fluctuations of the metals markets -- and there is no question in my mind the shipment will be intercepted by CBP which will exact a customs duty fee and subject me to a long intrusive interrogation. To give you an idea as to how unsettling this can be, imagine being "ordered" to provide your full legal name, date of birth and Social Security Number over the phone to a total stranger under penalty of having the shipment returned in five days if you decline to comply.

There is no space for the encapsulated "coin" on any Set Registry but for all intents and purposes, acquisition of this example will figuratively crown the already complete set I have maintained on the West coast for the past five years.

A Note of Caution...  I would not encourage any collector in his right mind to duplicate my feat. I take calculated risks which remarkably turned out better than I expected.  I would not advise anyone else to do the same. Collect with your head, not over it.   🐓 

Edited June 15 by Henri Charriere
Make link provided operative.

[GoldFinger1969]

French Gold Hoardings:  This chart shows the massive growth in French gold reserves, much of which was hoarded by peasants, farmers, small businessmen, professionals, etc.  This appears to be endemic to France, probably a result of the political volatility in the country for a century after Napoleon.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:12 AM, Henri Charriere said:

These graphs certainly help explain why the so-called "original" gold roosters, minted between 1899 and 1906, in the tens of millions, disappeared and are exceedingly hard to find as they saw considerable circulation as opposed to the "restrikes: (refrappes Pinay) which, though dated 1907-1914 were, as correctly noted by member zadok, minted in the millions post WWII and were essentially stockpiled as bullion.

Absolutely.  You wonder if they are STILL held by the French populace ?   Maybe Roger knows if France tended to melt coins (American or Roosters) but I believe that was largely confined to the UK.

This hoarding of gold is really focused on France.  No stories or articles on other countries to the extent of France and French citizens hoarding.  Confirmed by the charts above -- note the minimal interest in gold in Germany and the UK.

On 6/5/2024 at 7:12 AM, Henri Charriere said:

To date, the census and poplation figures of the two major TPGS continue to reflect the fact that NONE have been graded MS-67, or higher, though they have existed for well over 100 years.Thanks for the research and insight!   

Appreciated, more coming !! 

[Henri Charriere]

Yesterday, as reported yesterday on select threads, I received my latest acquisition.  The particulars may be found at this Link:

https://www.pcgseurope.com/cert/42188163

[Henri Charriere]

NOTICE TO ALL SET REGISTRANTS OF THE FRENCH 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER SERIES, 1899 TO 1914.

Earlier this month, I became aware that my No. 1 rank on the West coast had dropped a rank to No. 2, without advance notice.  (In checking the set registry clock, I learned that one coin, the 1909, had been deleted quietly, with no notice to me on 5/23/2024.)  I tried to ADD it back to the inventory but a message informed me it was already in a member's set. Likely mine.)

As I do not believe the deletion was accidental, I texted management.  They said they would look into it.  After a short interval, they came straight to the point. Because the 1907 to 1914 half of the set were restrikes, in the words of the Set Registry coordinator (who consulted his world coin experts) it should "never have been made a part of the set."  Instead, a new separate set was created for restrikes.

I recounted, for his benefit the entire history of the series citing how many were restruck and when: 1921 and 1951 to 1960.  There is no discernible difference between the earlier "Originals" 1899 to 1906, and the later "Restrikes" 1907 to 1914. In point of fact, not all coins dated 1907-1914 were restruck later. Only sophisticated electronic equipment can determine the difference and what I find particularly galling is no one requested to see my coin and subject it to in-hand inspection or electronic analysis.   I wrote to no avail.

I suggested retaining the original format with the two sections headed Originals and Restrikes, respectively. Request Denied.

There aren't many Set Registrants on the West coast but no one's set rating or ranking will remain unaffected. What about their historical list of Current and All-Time Finest Sets?  No comparison now; apples and oranges.

Of interest too, are the eight times as many members who collect gold roosters here at NGC. Will NGC follow suit?  I predict potential resentment and confusion.  

Imagine, if you will, gentle collector, being on top of the heap one day, and being lost in the sauce the next. The decision to bifurcate the sets was made unilaterally without notice or member input.

The controversy regarding acceptance of of other TPGS sets in each others' Registries preceded my tenure here. Collectors of these coins will now have to make a choice: collect either of the two short sets each consisting of 8 coins, 16 total.

I know those of you who do not collect the series few knew of and have put up with my antics for years, couldn't care less but, asked how I feel, I would have to be honest: BETRAYED. 

These coins, the last in a long line of French 20-francs, have been around for over a hundred years. TPGSs have been around for decades.  Am I to believe all these numismatists with hundreds of years of experience amongst them were unaware the earlier roosters were called originals and the latter ones, regardless when actually minted, are all universally regarded as restrikes?  Spare me, please.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Your input is welcome.

Edited June 15 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing; additional comments.

[GoldFinger1969]

French Gold Hoarding:  I never thought I would say this, but to understand the mentaility of the gold coin/DE coin hoarding, I may need a French History major or expert.

France experienced a mild inflation post-WW I in the early-1920's....but it was NOTHING compared to what Germany endured with their hyperinflation.  And the Germans, who had a huge incentive to want to hold/hoard gold, did nothing of the sort as you can tell from the German holdings of gold.

Strange....how both the psyche to fight changed so much for France but not Germany in 25 years....and the different approaches to gold with France going nuts despite Germany having the horrid currency.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/15/2024 at 7:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

French Gold Hoarding:  I never thought I would say this, but to understand the mentaility of the gold coin/DE coin hoarding, I may need a French History major or expert.

France experienced a mild inflation post-WW I in the early-1920's....but it was NOTHING compared to what Germany endured with their hyperinflation.  And the Germans, who had a huge incentive to want to hold/hoard gold, did nothing of the sort as you can tell from the German holdings of gold.

Strange....how both the psyche to fight changed so much for France but not Germany in 25 years....and the different approaches to gold with France going nuts despite Germany having the horrid currency.

I am going to pretend I didn't see this.  Have you read my previous post???

PCGS, without notifying me, deleted a coin from my F20F GR Set Registry.  I knew nothing about it.  I just happened to stumble upon it. I asked for an explanation. And got one:  the 1909 they deleted was a "restrike" (duh!) and, all these years later, this was news to them.  THEY SAID ALL EIGHT (8) RESTRIKES -- HALF THE SERIES -- SHOULD NEVER HAD BEEN MADE A PART OF THE SET.  So they created a separate parallel set for them.  A five-year project wiped out.

I lost my number 1 rank. I lost my set rating. On what should have been the happiest day of my life, acquiring a unique pattern, my West coast set was destroyed. Cannibalized. If NGC feels the same way, nearly 80 set registrants will have a decision to make. All the ranks, ratings and records will go out the window.

With a single e-mail, I became a nobody.  I am 72, not exactly in the best of health, and forced to accept my fate as a good-for-nothing, retired old man destined now to join the ranks of those around me: down among the cranks, the misfits, the one-lungers, the has-beens, the might've beens, the would-bes, the never-wills, the ne'er-do-wells and the God-knows-whats...

[In case Sandon is watching, the foregoing was lifted, in part, from "Joe Gould's Secret," originally published in The New Yorker magazine and included in the book, UP IN THE OLD HOTEL, by Joseph Mitchell (1908-1996) published in 1992 by Pantheon Books, a division of Random House.]

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:30 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I am going to pretend I didn't see this.  Have you read my previous post???

PCGS, without notifying me, deleted a coin from my F20F GR Set Registry.  I knew nothing about it.  I just happened to stumble upon it. I asked for an explanation. And got one:  the 1909 they deleted was a "restrike" (duh!) and, all these years later, this was news to them.  THEY SAID ALL EIGHT (8) RESTRIKES -- HALF THE SERIES -- SHOULD NEVER HAD BEEN MADE A PART OF THE SET.  So they created a separate parallel set for them.  A five-year project wiped out. I lost my number 1 rank. I lost my set rating. On what should have been the happiest day of my life, acquiring a unique pattern, my West coast set was destroyed. Cannibalized. If NGC feels the same way, nearly 80 set registrants will have a decision to make. All the ranks, ratings and records will go out the window.

With a single e-mail, I became a nobody.  I am 72, not exactly in the best of health, and forced to accept my fate as a good-for-nothing, retired old man destined now to join the ranks of those around me: down among the cranks, the misfits, the one-lungers, the has-beens, the might've beens, the would-bes, the never-wills, the ne'er-do-wells and the God-knows-whats...

[In case Sandon is watching, the foregoing was lifted, in part, from "Joe Gould's Secret," originally published in The New Yorker magazine and included in the book, UP IN THE OLD HOTEL, by Joseph Mitchell (1908-1996) published in 1992 by Pantheon Books, a division of Random House.]  Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

Definitely unfair, but as I am not a registery expert by any stretch, not sure how to rectifiy this.

Changing the rules of the game after the game starts seems unfair.  And it seems some of the players know more about the game than the umpires. 

[Henri Charriere]

Unasked question:  If this reconfiguration were to be effected here at NGC, i.e., dividing the F20F GR series into two separate sets, the Originals (1899-1906) and Restrikes (1907-1914) what would the ramifications (or repercussions) be?

There are up to 8 times as many formal collectors (set registrants) here, than there. I would not be affected at all. My only set consists of Restrikes, eight coins, all MS-66.  Because only half the Originals have been certified MS-66, and I wish to hew to that grade, my set has been paused, so any new reconfiguration would have no effect on me. My fellow collectors -- on whose behalf I cannot speak because I do not know their intentions, I am guessing would be relieved. The acquisition of Originals has always been hard and a brief review of sets compiled thus far indicates the vast majority of collectors began their sets with Restrikes and move on to Originals as supply and their budgets will permit. Bear in mind, gold spot prices have risen considerably in the five years I have been a member. Last I checked, the collections of the top two registrants are still incomplete due to the lack of availability of the key date: 1900, in the highest Mint State grades.

[I should like to thank member J P M (I sometimes jokingly refer to as the House of Morgan) for unwittingly encouraging me to resist the impulse to throw in the towel, and soldier on.]

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

[zadok]

On 6/15/2024 at 9:30 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I am going to pretend I didn't see this.  Have you read my previous post???

PCGS, without notifying me, deleted a coin from my F20F GR Set Registry.  I knew nothing about it.  I just happened to stumble upon it. I asked for an explanation. And got one:  the 1909 they deleted was a "restrike" (duh!) and, all these years later, this was news to them.  THEY SAID ALL EIGHT (8) RESTRIKES -- HALF THE SERIES -- SHOULD NEVER HAD BEEN MADE A PART OF THE SET.  So they created a separate parallel set for them.  A five-year project wiped out.

I lost my number 1 rank. I lost my set rating. On what should have been the happiest day of my life, acquiring a unique pattern, my West coast set was destroyed. Cannibalized. If NGC feels the same way, nearly 80 set registrants will have a decision to make. All the ranks, ratings and records will go out the window.

With a single e-mail, I became a nobody.  I am 72, not exactly in the best of health, and forced to accept my fate as a good-for-nothing, retired old man destined now to join the ranks of those around me: down among the cranks, the misfits, the one-lungers, the has-beens, the might've beens, the would-bes, the never-wills, the ne'er-do-wells and the God-knows-whats...

[In case Sandon is watching, the foregoing was lifted, in part, from "Joe Gould's Secret," originally published in The New Yorker magazine and included in the book, UP IN THE OLD HOTEL, by Joseph Mitchell (1908-1996) published in 1992 by Pantheon Books, a division of Random House.]

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

...yaaaaawn!....

[zadok]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:43 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Unasked question:  If this reconfiguration were to be effected here at NGC, i.e., dividing the F20F GR series into two separate sets, the Originals (1899-1906) and Restrikes (1907-1914) what would the ramifications (or repercussions) be?

There are up to 8 times as many formal collectors (set registrants) here, than there. I would not be affected at all. My only set consists of Restrikes, eight coins, all MS-66.  Because only half the Originals have been certified MS-66, and I wish to hew to that grade, my set has been paused, so any new reconfiguration would have no effect on me. My fellow collectors -- on whose behalf I cannot speak because I do not know their intentions, I am guessing would be relieved. The acquisition of Originals has always been hard and a brief review of sets compiled thus far indicates the vast majority of collectors began their sets with Restrikes and move on to Originals as supply and their budgets will permit. Bear in mind, gold spot prices have risen considerably in the five years I have been a member. Last I checked, the collections of the top two registrants are still incomplete due to the lack of availability of the key date: 1900, in the highest Mint State grades.

[I should like to thank member J P M (I sometimes jokingly refer to as the House of Morgan) for unwittingly encouraging me to resist the impulse to throw in the towel, and soldier on.]

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

...moral to this issue, only buy top-pop coins when buying foreign bullion gold coins n u never have to worry....

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:38 PM, zadok said:

...moral to this issue, only buy top-pop coins when buying foreign bullion gold coins n u never have to worry....

   The issue here has nothing to do with Top Pops or Foreign Bullion Gold coins.  

It has to do with whether coins dated 1907 to 1914 in the F20F GR series -- commonly referred to as "Restrikes," whether they were minted in the years as dated, or decades later -- should be divorced from the "Originals" minted as dated, from 1899 to 1906, on the dubious grounds of "irreconcilable differences."  [ I am going to withhold comment in the event NGC accepts the distinction, and follows suit. ]  My stance is simple: if it walks like a rooster and crows like a rooster, it is a rooster.

It is possible, my objection is much ado about nothing.  The #2 guy had apparently failed to delete his long-dormant set from the active rolls and the higher gold prices coupled  with persistent unavailabiliy, are apparently keeping any competitors I may have, at bay.  I won't know until the fall-out is complete, i.e., after collectors have relented and formally assigned their restrike inventory to the newly-created dedicated set -- or decide to take a powder, and leave.  🐓 

 

Edited June 18 by Henri Charriere
Add a word.

[zadok]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:35 PM, Henri Charriere said:

   The issue here has nothing to do with Top Pops or Foreign Bullion Gold coins.  

It has to do with whether coins dated 1907 to 1914 in the F20F GR series -- commonly referred to as "Restrikes," whether they were minted in the years as dated, or decades later -- should be divorced from the "Originals" minted as dated, from 1899 to 1906, on the dubious grounds of "irreconcilable differences."  [ I am going to withhold comment in the event NGC accepts the distinction, and follows suit. ]  My stance is simple: if it walks like a rooster and crows like a rooster, it is a rooster.

It is possible, my objection is much ado about nothing.  The #2 guy had apparently failed to delete his long-dormant set from the active rolls and the higher gold prices coupled  with persistent unavailabiliy, are apparently keeping any competitors I may have, at bay.  I won't know until the fall-out is complete, i.e., after collectors have relented and formally assigned their restrike inventory to the newly-created dedicated set -- or decide to take a powder, and leave.  🐓 

 

...restrikes dont belong in registry sets as simple as that, just a means to pad points n outscore the collectors who collect the originals...in other words circumventing the integrity intent of the registry as it is supposed to be...the originals n the restrikes belong in two separate sets, simple a no-brainer...anyone that invests in bullion restrikes should realize the folly of their adventure...n not intrude into the collector base of the originals...u should whine elsewhere, no sympathy here....

[Henri Charriere]

Q.A.:  BALDERDASH!  But I tell you what, he has implied he knows better -- AND HAS KNOWN BETTER -- than the collective expertise of every TPGS and their panels of highly acclaimed numismatists with centuries of experience amongst them.  I am going to plead my case to the ultimate authorities.

🐓  :  Will Moderation approve? What is your level of confidence?

Q.A.:  Zero, But I am afraid that it is a risk I have to take given the gentleman's cockiness and condescending tone...

To:  His Excellency Sheikh Mohammad Khalid, Acting Minister, Ministry of the Propogation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.

(In short, the supplicant, OP, pleads his case and after due deliberation, a fatwa issues, as reproduced in its entirety, as follows...)

TO ALL TPGSs IN AMREEKA, AND THEIR FOREIGN OFFICES AND AFFILIATES, WHEREVER SITUATED:

IT HAVING BEEN BROUGHT TO THE MINISTRY'S ATTENTION THAT "Z's DECREE" HAS FALLEN BY THE WAYSIDE, IT IS HEREBY ORDERED THAT ALL RESPONSIBLE PARTIES BE  PUT ON NOTICE THAT FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH ITS PREMISE SHALL RESULT IN A SPECIAL ENFORCEMENT OPERATION.

THE ISSUE BEFORE THE MINISTRY IS SIMPLE. WHETHER ALL SET REGISTRIES FOR THE FRENCH 20-FRANCS GOLD ROOSTER SERIES SHALL BE SPLIT IN HALF AND THE ONE SET NOW EXTANT BE MADE INTO TWO.  THERE IS NO MERIT IN PETITIONER'S COMPLAINT. COMMINGLING OF GOLD ROOSTERS OF MIXED ORIGINAL/RESTRIKE PERSUASION HAS NEVER BEEN PERMITTED, WILL NO LONGER BE TOLERATED AND SHALL CEASE IMMEDIATELY.  IT IS WELL-SETTLED IN CASE LAW THAT THE INTEGRITY OF THE COINS MUST BE UPHELD AND SHALL BE, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, UNDER PENALTY OF APPLICABLE CODES.

SO ORDERED.

🐓  :  Oh well. You win some; you lose some.  I sure would like to know how come the two major TPGSs didn't know anything about this.

Q.A.:  Perhaps they never got the memo.  Perhaps we will never know. It's almost dawn; let's get some sleep. 'Nite, Ricky.