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Tetradrachm hoard question
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15 posts in this topic

Recently purchased an attic owl tetradrachm c.455-440 BC as a gift.  It’s part of the “Parliament Collection.” Does anyone know what Parliament collection means? All I can find searching internet is it is from a recently discovered hoard. Specifically looking for when and where this hoard was discovered. Thank you.

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That would be a Pedigree then.  https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/pedigrees/

I couldn't find anything related to "Parliament Collection" other than this cert verification for a Tetradrachm (which may be yours?).  https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4631153-060/NGCAncients/

News to me though that anybody could request it when submitted.

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Oh, wait.  Additional information.  If this is the original seller of the "Parliament Collection" owls then it may be a marketing ploy.  Considering anybody can request it (subject to approval) there doesn't need to be any provenance established for a private collection to be pedigreed.

There may or may not have been a hoard discovery.

https://www.govmint.com/440-404-b-c-ancient-attica-athens-silver-athena-owl-tetradrachm-ngc-ch-vf-the-parliament-collection

New Discovery – The Largest Hoard of Athenian Owls!

Struck sometime between 440 and 404 B.C., this Greek Silver Tetradrachm was minted in Athens, the capital city of Attica, a region of the Greek empire. It features perhaps the most iconic and instantly recognizable designs found on ancient coinage: the Athenian Owl, flanked by the crescent moon, olive branch, and monogram of its city of origin. The obverse features the goddess Athena herself, protected by her beautifully designed helmet.

Part of what makes these coins so iconic is that they are the first mass-circulated coin ever produced! In fact, many of the skilled laborers and soldiers who were paid with these coins simply had no idea what a coin was, resulting in many coins being marked with knives or other instruments used to cut into their surface and confirm their contents.

These coins were minted in large quantities in order to restore the Acropolis and build the Parthenon in Athens. Because of our connections in the numismatic world, we were able to get our pick of the nicest looking coins from this hoard. These selected pieces make up the Parliament Collection – a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to acquire such high-quality Athena Owl coins.

It’s the largest hoard of its kind we’ve ever seen, with coins in this offering graded by the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) as being in Choice Very Fine (Ch VF) condition. These coins have received the extra designation of being a part of The Parliament Collection. Don’t let these historic, museum-quality coins disappear!

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Found the following info on ngc pedigree faq’s:

There is no universally accepted line that separates a “collection” from a “hoard.” NGC considers a collection to be a group of coins that were assembled by a collector in a selective manner. A hoard, on the other hand, is a very large accumulation or find of coins, often with many examples of the exact same type.

The “Redfield Hoard,” for example, is the name given to the accumulation of approximately 400,000 silver dollars by LaVere Redfield. Similarly, the “GSA Hoard” refers to the millions of silver dollars that had been held in the US Treasury’s vaults until they were sold by the General Services Administration (GSA) between 1973 and 1980.

To learn more about NGC’s certification services for Redfield Hoard and GSA Hoard coins, click here.

 

so it appears that the “parliament Collection” is just a pedigree acquired by some company/ collector who hand selected a batch of coins from a “hoard” and paid ngc to pedigree them. So that means the designation has nothing to do with when and where each coin in the collection was initially found, or when. Thanks for the leads. Fyi, there are a number of coins available with this pedigree available online, including such sites as apmex, and govmint.

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No, I believe this reference is to the 20 to 30 thousand coin hoard found in 2017 in an undisclosed country w strict export bans on ancient coins.  A “parliament” is a group of owls, kind of like a flock of seagulls.  Your coin is probably from that hoard.  NGC is not using it to designate pedigree, but rather to designate it as part of that hoard.  By the way, my understanding is that the price of owls has fallen dramatically because of the sheer number of coins involved. David

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I just did a quick search, and there are currently 5 pages of these for sale on eBay. Some raw, some graded by NGC and ANACS. Some raw. None of the slabbed ones seem to have the pedigree on the label. As for the prices, they range depending on condition with poor examples going for about $100 to MS examples going into the $3,000 to $9,000 range. Perhaps these prices are based upon a higher demand?? If this extra hoard was discovered, I would say it has not driven the prices down, unless they were $5,000-10,000+ before the discovery.

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With the OP's indulgence...

To Messrs. @EagleRJO and @J P M :

Speaking as a former thread retread guy, it has been my experience that 99 out of 100 threads are resurrected, inadvertently, by fairly new members who jump right in, without malice.  The sole exception is me. Recently, I barged in like a bull in a China shop and the Grand Msster himself, trying to make a point and unamused by theatrics waved me away with a curt, "stay away."  When Oldhoop announced his departure in a post entitled, "Outta here," just last year, the esteem in which he was held was demonstrated by the 250 posts that followed over nine [cell] pages.  I reactivated the thread a week or so ago to declare my own departure. (Ricky, 🐓,  my faithful sidekick, now speaks for me.)  Not all resurrections are bad. My unsolicited advice:  if it is not related to your area of expertise, let it fly. The membership is always evolving whether by attrition or addition. You wouldn't want a biting comment to stifle a Newbie's exploratory activities. (thumbsu

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If I am providing an opinion I always check if it's a retread as the op is likely long gone.  You my friend are a completely different case. (:

Edited by EagleRJO
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On 1/9/2024 at 9:10 PM, EagleRJO said:

If I am providing an opinion I always check if it a retread as the op is likely long gone.  

The search function here to check for topics is not the most user-friendly.  Unless I created a thread or was active in posting multiple times, I might not recall its existence.

I recall a major site change/upgrade about 2014 (?) here and lots of useful threads didn't make it, as I recall.

Some very useful stuff in older threads, like the JA/CAC interview with Maurice Rosen from 2008.

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On 1/9/2024 at 9:10 PM, EagleRJO said:

If I am providing an opinion I always check if it a retread as the op is likely long gone.  You my friend are a completely different case. (:

But, but... you flat out conceded you were observed speaking to a rooster before a live studio audience!  🤣  

Note:  The demise of OP, IGWT, hasn't stopped anyone from posting on his long-running thread.

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On 1/9/2024 at 9:02 PM, Henri Charriere said:

With the OP's indulgence...

To Messrs. @EagleRJO and @J P M :

Speaking as a former thread retread guy, it has been my experience that 99 out of 100 threads are resurrected, inadvertently, by fairly new members who jump right in, without malice.  The sole exception is me. Recently, I barged in like a bull in a China shop and the Grand Msster himself, trying to make a point and unamused by theatrics waved me away with a curt, "stay away."  When Oldhoop announced his departure in a post entitled, "Outta here," just last year, the esteem in which he was held was demonstrated by the 250 posts that followed over nine [cell] pages.  I reactivated the thread a week or so ago to declare my own departure. (Ricky, 🐓,  my faithful sidekick, now speaks for me.)  Not all resurrections are bad. My unsolicited advice:  if it is not related to your area of expertise, let it fly. The membership is always evolving whether by attrition or addition. You wouldn't want a biting comment to stifle a Newbie's exploratory activities. (thumbsu

There are also Bots QA and sometimes it looks like they pick up a tread and post a comment. I do understand some threads have good information that new people seem to use first.

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