Bummed Collector

[FairTradeAct_1935]

First and foremost I’m still satisfied with NGC and all grading is subjective (I might have them re-graded elsewhere, still pondering). Given that I’m kinda bummed on my recent submission. I’ve purchase 3 coins two from separate dealers (1858 Flying Eagle, 1872 Indian head) 1 dealer and the other coin (1857 Flying Eagle)from the other at very respectable price (almost to much) at different dates. I’ll post pictures with  grades and I want a general opinion from the community if you all don’t mind. 

 

[LINCOLNMAN]

I feel for you. I bought a number of whizzed and cleaned coins in the pre-slab era, before my eyes became more educated. Not to say that I couldn't be fooled today, especially on lightly cleaned silver, doctored coins, counterfeits, etc, which is why I only buy certified coins when any real money is involved. I had dealers sell me processed coins as uncs when I was a ten-twelve year old kid.back in the 50's, hard for me to believe even today. I'll let the pros weigh in, but the photos do indicate processed surfaces for the FE cents and an unnatural color for the IHC, IMO. Sad that the bad guys are still out there and will always be with us. Hang in there, I've gained much more that I've lost on "lessons" and still love the hobby.  

[coinman1794]

With careful study of natural luster on undamaged coins, you will eventually learn to recognized cleaned and wizzed coins at a glance. Consider this a learning experience.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

Thank you for the advice peeps. This is definitely a learning moment and a tough one at that. I greatly appreciate the insight and comments 

[World Colonial]

On the coins I collect, most have been cleaned and I can almost always spot it.  However, since the TPG give some latitude, my opinion of "market acceptability" differs from theirs.  I have never bought a whizzed coin.

For the coins you bought, I would have bought one in the grade and/or appearance I wanted.  Almost certainly more expensive but with less financial risk.  Even with the frequently extreme selectivity US collectors practice today, all three should be sufficiently available where a satisfactory example can be found with some patience.

[WoodenJefferson]

...you'd see me camped out at the dealers door with graded coin, receipt of what I paid for said coin raw, realistic prices for now certified coin and demand some action. All monies back, partial refund from estimated grade and actual grade, something financial or pick out another coin in display case that makes up the difference. 

[Just Bob]

Believe me when I tell you that you are not the only person on these boards who has trusted a coin dealer, only to be rewarded with a whizzed, cleaned, or otherwise damaged coin. This very practice almost scared me away from collecting years ago.

Examine these coins carefully, in different kinds of lighting and with different degrees of magnification, and try to see what NGC saw. This can be a real learning experience, if you view it that way.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

"On the coins I collect, most have been cleaned and I can almost always spot it.  However, since the TPG give some latitude, my opinion of "market acceptability" differs from theirs.  I have never bought a whizzed coin.

For the coins you bought, I would have bought one in the grade and/or appearance I wanted.  Almost certainly more expensive but with less financial risk.  Even with the frequently extreme selectivity US collectors practice today, all three should be sufficiently available where a satisfactory example can be found with some patience.:"

 

I have never seen or heard of a "Whizzed" coin and I thought I did my home work before I purchased these coins (obviously not good enough) . I researched like priced coins and  studied there appearances. What gets my goat is both FE are from different dealers in which I purchase on different dates, yet both are whizzed. The 72 seemed like a great deal...(for the seller). Either way I greatly appreciate the advice

[FairTradeAct_1935]

35 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Believe me when I tell you that you are not the only person on these boards who has trusted a coin dealer, only to be rewarded with a whizzed, cleaned, or otherwise damaged coin. This very practice almost scared me away from collecting years ago.

Examine these coins carefully, in different kinds of lighting and with different degrees of magnification, and try to see what NGC saw. This can be a real learning experience, if you view it that way.

The crappy part was I was super excited to get the coin grades and when I got the email and results my heart sank..seriously it has almost made me want to stop collecting b/c of the scumbags that trick/deceive collectors. More than likely I am not giving up something that I enjoy b/c of scumbags. They are still beautiful coins and will still be in my collection until I can find replacements..thanks again for your input and advice. 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

43 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

...you'd see me camped out at the dealers door with graded coin, receipt of what I paid for said coin raw, realistic prices for now certified coin and demand some action. All monies back, partial refund from estimated grade and actual grade, something financial or pick out another coin in display case that makes up the difference. 

LMAO! If these dealers where in driving distance I would have already gone postal on them, but since I bought these on E- scam in out of luck. I already sent the seller(s) a message on their practices and they will  be on notice..thanks again. 

[Just Bob]

50 minutes ago, FairTradeAct_1935 said:

LMAO! If these dealers where in driving distance I would have already gone postal on them, but since I bought these on E- scam in out of luck. I already sent the seller(s) a message on their practices and they will  be on notice..thanks again. 

Post their names here, please.

Or, post a link to the auctions.

 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

23 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Post their names here, please.

Or, post a link to the auctions.

 

Seller: Sheelthipad0 (purchased the 1872, 1857)

Seller: ES_Coins (9627): (purchased the 1858)

[BillJones]

"Whizzed" means that the coins have been gone over in a circular motion with a wire brush. The process brings up a fake luster by moving the metal on the surface. Back in the 1970s it was the way less than honest dealers sold Almost Uncirculated coins as Mint State pieces. The ANA came out against the practice big time.

I will post pictures of a Mint State Flying Eagle in a few days that should help you see the difference.

[Just Bob]

This is from one of Sheelthipad0 's listings:

I absolutely guarantee authenticity. No other guaranties implied nor written. If you the buyer think it may have been cleaned then do not bid if this bothers you-there are no returns for saying it is cleaned. I personnaly (sic) see no indications of a cleaning but it is your opinion that counts!

[Curry]

I currently have a 32 coin sub at ngc right now, 14 in economy and 18 in modern. This is my first sub and I started collecting around 11 years ago. I can imagine I will miss a lot of issues with coins that experienced people would catch on very fast. I will post the results when I get them and I'll probably be in the same boat as you. What I learned is that every business has bums as I call them or those who like to deceive buyers but there are at least more than half in the business/hobby that are very honest and reliable. You just to find them. Those on here experienced me when i was in high school and they taught me a lot. Dont let this buy from a dealer get you down man, keep on going. 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

24 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

This is from one of Sheelthipad0 's listings:

I absolutely guarantee authenticity. No other guaranties implied nor written. If you the buyer think it may have been cleaned then do not bid if this bothers you-there are no returns for saying it is cleaned. I personnaly (sic) see no indications of a cleaning but it is your opinion that counts!

Yeah I spoke to the seller and “IMO” the coin didn’t look cleaned. I noticed the dings and other imperfections hence I bought it at “Her” cost according to her. Either way no hard feelings towards the seller. Just a very, very expensive lesson on all 3 coins. Regardless I love the hobby and I realize I have to put in more diligence 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

2 hours ago, BillJones said:

"Whizzed" means that the coins have been gone over in a circular motion with a wire brush. The process brings up a fake luster by moving the metal on the surface. Back in the 1970s it was the way less than honest dealers sold Almost Uncirculated coins as Mint State pieces. The ANA came out against the practice big time.

I will post pictures of a Mint State Flying Eagle in a few days that should help you see the difference.

That would be awesome and greatly appreciated whenever you have the time

[FairTradeAct_1935]

2 minutes ago, Curry said:

I currently have a 32 coin sub at ngc right now, 14 in economy and 18 in modern. This is my first sub and I started collecting around 11 years ago. I can imagine I will miss a lot of issues with coins that experienced people would catch on very fast. I will post the results when I get them and I'll probably be in the same boat as you. What I learned is that every business has bums as I call them or those who like to deceive buyers but there are at least more than half in the business/hobby that are very honest and reliable. You just to find them. Those on here experienced me when i was in high school and they taught me a lot. Dont let this buy from a dealer get you down man, keep on going. 

Absolutely I can’t give it up! They are beautiful coins that will be replaced eventually but all is good. I look forward to seeing your results. You will have your highs and lows but an awesome experience when they get back. Hoping your coins grade well and May 4 be with you

[Curry]

1 minute ago, FairTradeAct_1935 said:

Absolutely I can’t give it up! They are beautiful coins that will be replaced eventually but all is good. I look forward to seeing your results. You will have your highs and lows but an awesome experience when they get back. Hoping your coins grade well and May 4 be with you

I got my educated grades on a word document and will hopefully be conservative compared to the actual grades. Take care

[Mohawk]

Man, I'm sorry to hear about this and that you bought them from people on Ebay!  Guys like that make it tough for guys like me, who are honest, sell quality coins and take returns if the customer is not happy.  I'd contact the sellers regarding your problems and if you can't get a decent resolution that way, contact Ebay.  Maybe you could file an Item Not As Described claim and get your money back.  That said, classics are a tough game......there are a lot of older coins out there with problems that can be hard to detect, especially from the pictures many sellers post.  To avoid these risks in the future, I'd stick to buying coins that are already graded by NGC or PCGS when there is a decent amount of money involved. 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

Man, I'm sorry to hear about this and that you bought them from people on Ebay!  Guys like that make it tough for guys like me, who are honest, sell quality coins and take returns if the customer is not happy.  I'd contact the sellers regarding your problems and if you can't get a decent resolution that way, contact Ebay.  Maybe you could file an Item Not As Described claim and get your money back.  That said, classics are a tough game......there are a lot of older coins out there with problems that can be hard to detect, especially from the pictures many sellers post.  To avoid these risks in the future, I'd stick to buying coins that are already graded by NGC or PCGS when there is a decent amount of money involved. 

Thanks for the thoughts. I agree with sticking to graded coins. It’s the safest bet but I do enjoy the excitement when you score a ungraded and it turns out to be a great find. That’s the gamble I guess when it comes to collecting. Thanks again 

[LINCOLNMAN]

54 minutes ago, FairTradeAct_1935 said:

Thanks for the thoughts. I agree with sticking to graded coins. It’s the safest bet but I do enjoy the excitement when you score a ungraded and it turns out to be a great find. That’s the gamble I guess when it comes to collecting. Thanks again 

To score a coin from a seller, you will need to know more than the seller. If the seller is a dealer this is highly unlikely. Even if your knowledge of a series is equal to a seller's, remember that if you're buying on the internet the seller has the coin in hand, you are looking at  a photograph and reading the seller's pretty words. Lastly, if you're buying fairly expensive US federal classic coins, ask yourself "why would this seller not have had this coin certified?"  After all, certified coins generally sell more readily and for more money than raw coins. If a score is what you enjoy, consider making yourself an expert on series' of interest and go cherry-picking among common coins at shows, or even on the internet. In other words, know more than the seller. 

[Jade Collection]

ouch, I myself have 19 world coins at NGC for grading, fingers crossed for straight grades for all 19!!

[mumu]

If the whizzing isnt too deep look into the pricing spreads of slightly lower grades and consider cracking them out and making them pocket pieces until the whizzing is worn off. May work for the indian too depending on how it was cleaned. The indian has a better 40 to 58 price spread to conisder this option. Also depends just how much you paid for these coins raw. This will mean you have lower grade coins but might make it easier to get out of them. Even at a loss you might have a problem moving details material.

The seller line about not accepting returns on cleanings was a big red flag.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

9 hours ago, LINCOLNMAN said:

To score a coin from a seller, you will need to know more than the seller. If the seller is a dealer this is highly unlikely. Even if your knowledge of a series is equal to a seller's, remember that if you're buying on the internet the seller has the coin in hand, you are looking at  a photograph and reading the seller's pretty words. Lastly, if you're buying fairly expensive US federal classic coins, ask yourself "why would this seller not have had this coin certified?"  After all, certified coins generally sell more readily and for more money than raw coins. If a score is what you enjoy, consider making yourself an expert on series' of interest and go cherry-picking among common coins at shows, or even on the internet. In other words, know more than the seller. 

ask yourself "why would this seller not have had this coin certified?" Danng in all seriousness I never thought about that. I just purchased vol. #1 cherry pickers guide. I realized my knowledge base is not what I thought it was and I need more education. I am really taking a liking to these chat boards and the wealth of knowledge shared among collectors

[FairTradeAct_1935]

8 hours ago, Mk123 said:

ouch, I myself have 19 world coins at NGC for grading, fingers crossed for straight grades for all 19!!

Good luck my friend and I hope you score some nice grades and I am sure they are awesome coins regardless. 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

8 hours ago, Mk123 said:

ouch, I myself have 19 world coins at NGC for grading, fingers crossed for straight grades for all 19!!

Good luck my friend and I hope you score some nice grades and I am sure they are awesome coins regardless. 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

4 hours ago, mumu said:

If the whizzing isnt too deep look into the pricing spreads of slightly lower grades and consider cracking them out and making them pocket pieces until the whizzing is worn off. May work for the indian too depending on how it was cleaned. The indian has a better 40 to 58 price spread to conisder this option. Also depends just how much you paid for these coins raw. This will mean you have lower grade coins but might make it easier to get out of them. Even at a loss you might have a problem moving details material.

The seller line about not accepting returns on cleanings was a big red flag.

"The seller line about not accepting returns on cleanings was a big red flag:". Yes sir! That was a newbie mistake on my part and a very, very expensive lesson. What I purchased for those 3 coins was close to $1100 after grading fees. (I know i'm a fool) but I thought I was getting a fair market deal and adding key dates to my collection. 

In regards to breaking them out....is that an industry standard? I would be willing to eat the grade cost and re-sleeve the coins in holder and let them chill until later down the road. (Never thought about breaking them out). I just don't want to be that guy and ripped another collector off. If I can get them to tarnish naturally and get some beautiful tones (no idea how long that will take) then it would be worth the process. 

Greatly appreciate the feedback and advice!!!

[mumu]

I dont think toning is going to be a play here. I mean crack them out and pocket piece them for awhile. Light whizzing at 55 could be completely faded out by the time it wears down to 40. I dont know how long that would take. Potentially the coin could be considered a problem free 40 if the whizzing is gone. The event would technically be part of the coins history.. But molecularly the coin would be a problem free 40. Wouldnt call it industry standard but has the potential for market acceptable with no signs of whizzing and could grade. 

[Just Bob]

Just to be clear, Mumu isn't talking about trying to deceive someone by allowing the toning to cover the whizzing. What he is suggesting is carrying these coins around in your pocket with other change, and having them wear naturally, just as any coin would, until the whizzing is worn off. This would be considered honest wear, at least in my opinion, and would in no way be ripping someone off, should you eventually decide to sell.