1794 First Silver Dollar off the Mint Press

[WoodenJefferson]

I did not know TDN (TradeDollarNut) was the holder of this historic coin.

 

~linked here~

[RWB]

Ah, the uses of having lots of money.

 

As for the "first piece off the press" well, there's no documentary evidence. There is only assumption and speculation...but it makes for fun hype and fantasy. (PS: Coins were not put in bags in 1794.)

[physics-fan3.14]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

[thebeav]

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

[Walkerfan]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

Though we'll never know for sure, this is a convincing hypothesis.

 

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

 

Sign me up, too!!

 

I often wonder, if it would have really reached $10MM, had Laura not jumped the bid. Hard to say, if they overpaid or, if they shocked the competition and actually slowed the bidding down for a better hammer price, as was their strategy.

 

 

[BillJones]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

+1

 

This the way I have viewed this coin from the time I heard the claims about it. As Roger said, there is no documentary evidence to support the first coin claim.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

Though we'll never know for sure, this is a convincing hypothesis.

 

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

 

Sign me up, too!!

 

I often wonder, if it would have really reached $10MM, had Laura not jumped the bid. Hard to say, if they overpaid or, if they shocked the competition and actually slowed the bidding down for a better hammer price, as was their strategy.

 

 

One has to consider who else was in pursuit of the piece. I am not sure the bid was jumped, and I don't think the competition was shocked. Value is in the eye of the beholder, as is a bargain point that, when exceeded, is no longer a bargain. The real time thread that was ats, and the post action commentary by the present owner was interesting.

 

I did like the supersized coin art his bride presented him. I thought it a very appropriate gift.

[MarkFeld]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

Though we'll never know for sure, this is a convincing hypothesis.

 

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

 

Sign me up, too!!

 

I often wonder, if it would have really reached $10MM, had Laura not jumped the bid. Hard to say, if they overpaid or, if they shocked the competition and actually slowed the bidding down for a better hammer price, as was their strategy.

 

 

One has to consider who else was in pursuit of the piece. I am not sure the bid was jumped, and I don't think the competition was shocked. Value is in the eye of the beholder, as is a bargain point that, when exceeded, is no longer a bargain. The real time thread that was ats, and the post action commentary by the present owner was interesting.

 

I did like the supersized coin art his bride presented him. I thought it a very appropriate gift.

 

Everything I read and heard indicated that the bid was jumped - by a seven figure amount. And I believe that the competition was indeed, shocked.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

Though we'll never know for sure, this is a convincing hypothesis.

 

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

 

Sign me up, too!!

 

I often wonder, if it would have really reached $10MM, had Laura not jumped the bid. Hard to say, if they overpaid or, if they shocked the competition and actually slowed the bidding down for a better hammer price, as was their strategy.

 

 

One has to consider who else was in pursuit of the piece. I am not sure the bid was jumped, and I don't think the competition was shocked. Value is in the eye of the beholder, as is a bargain point that, when exceeded, is no longer a bargain. The real time thread that was ats, and the post action commentary by the present owner was interesting.

 

I did like the supersized coin art his bride presented him. I thought it a very appropriate gift.

 

Everything I read and heard indicated that the bid was jumped - by a seven figure amount. And I believe that the competition was indeed, shocked.

 

Value and bargain in the eye of the beholder, then. Shock is a relative term, with many interpretations. Shocked because of the perceived value placed on an item by another bidder? Shocked because another bidder would be so silly to throw away money? Shocked because there was an expectation that a bidder knew what they were doing? OR, were they shocked that the winning bidder did not know the end result was exactly what was desired? After all, who still has their money that they would have spent?

 

On the jumped observation, I recall the winning bidder commenting this strategy and amount was the plan beforehand, and not a spur of the moment emotional bid, which, at the end of the day, is really the only type of bid that could be stated as jumping. Emotion causes just such a bid in percentages far greater than cold calculating non-emotion driven bidding. So, who really received bargain? Who really was shocked? We know who received accolades, of course.

[brg5658]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

Though we'll never know for sure, this is a convincing hypothesis.

 

Please enter me in the give-away !

Thanks for the opportunity !

 

Sign me up, too!!

 

I often wonder, if it would have really reached $10MM, had Laura not jumped the bid. Hard to say, if they overpaid or, if they shocked the competition and actually slowed the bidding down for a better hammer price, as was their strategy.

 

 

One has to consider who else was in pursuit of the piece. I am not sure the bid was jumped, and I don't think the competition was shocked. Value is in the eye of the beholder, as is a bargain point that, when exceeded, is no longer a bargain. The real time thread that was ats, and the post action commentary by the present owner was interesting.

 

I did like the supersized coin art his bride presented him. I thought it a very appropriate gift.

 

Everything I read and heard indicated that the bid was jumped - by a seven figure amount. And I believe that the competition was indeed, shocked.

 

Value and bargain in the eye of the beholder, then. Shock is a relative term, with many interpretations. Shocked because of the perceived value placed on an item by another bidder? Shocked because another bidder would be so silly to throw away money? Shocked because there was an expectation that a bidder knew what they were doing? OR, were they shocked that the winning bidder did not know the end result was exactly what was desired? After all, who still has their money that they would have spent?

 

On the jumped observation, I recall the winning bidder commenting this strategy and amount was the plan beforehand, and not a spur of the moment emotional bid, which, at the end of the day, is really the only type of bid that could be stated as jumping. Emotion causes just such a bid in percentages far greater than cold calculating non-emotion driven bidding. So, who really received bargain? Who really was shocked? We know who received accolades, of course.

 

The bid was definitely jumped.

 

It was at $5.5 million on the phone (Pogues), and was jumped to $8.525 million (~3 million) in one bid. It was a "shock-and-awe" bidding tactic, and also guaranteed that the final price with the juice would surpass the magical $10 million mark (with bragging rights -- 8.525 was not a valid bidding increment in normal auction bidding).

 

When you have that kind of money, and you want to say you were the first "$10 million" coin, I guess you can do whatever you want.

 

 

From the PCGS forums, TDN (Bruce Morelan) wrote the following:

 

January 24, 2013

The jump was intended. Once we ascertained that we were up against the Pogues, the strategy was to ensure that we shock and awed them. As it turns out, the most we were high were one increment - and it's worth one increment to be the first to break $10M

 

You don't beat the Pogues by being nambie pambies

You can see the bidding in a video

.

[brg5658]

(1) Value and bargain in the eye of the beholder, then. Shock is a relative term, with many interpretations. Shocked because of the perceived value placed on an item by another bidder? Shocked because another bidder would be so silly to throw away money? Shocked because there was an expectation that a bidder knew what they were doing? OR, were they shocked that the winning bidder did not know the end result was exactly what was desired? After all, who still has their money that they would have spent?

 

(2) On the jumped observation, I recall the winning bidder commenting this strategy and amount was the plan beforehand, and not a spur of the moment emotional bid, which, at the end of the day, is really the only type of bid that could be stated as jumping. Emotion causes just such a bid in percentages far greater than cold calculating non-emotion driven bidding. So, who really received bargain? Who really was shocked? We know who received accolades, of course.

 

To clarify what Mr.McKnowNothing claimed:

 

(1) "Shocked" because that's the exact word that the purchaser (TDN) of the coin used to describe the bidding tactic. It was argued by others in the PCGS thread that there were no known bidders beyond the $5.5 million bid increment, and that Legend/Morelan probably paid about $3 million more than anyone else was willing to (after the juice).

 

(2) The bid was jumped once Legend realized they were bidding against the Pogues. It was not stated whether it was planned ahead of time or was a spur of the moment tactic.

 

You can view a video of the actual bidding sequence

.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Seems pretty supportive of my thoughts.....;

 

Shock and awe was a big thing at the time in describing a tactic of winning. But you know that. It is a war/bid plan. It is not.... "hey...that guy just robbed me and kissed my wife and she ran away with him. I am shocked."

 

Planned before hand....yes. Read carefully. And read the as it turned out part. And post the rest of the thread, which is enlightening. And post the comments after the fact of the 2nd bidder.

[brg5658]

The point being that about 30% of the "value" of the coin's bid at the time of the auction was bragging rights. I'm not saying when it sells next it won't have been a good investment for Legend/Morelan -- that's very plausible. There's always someone who wants to have the bragging rights.

 

The 1794 dollar sell price of $10,016,875 is actually the most ever successfully bid and won for a US coin at auction.

 

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

[thebeav]

After watching the video, I can't disagree with the technique. Up to that point, the bidding was quite spirited, and it was obvious that there would be a long way to go. When that bid of 8 plus came in, it didn't just shut the door, it slammed it....

 

Paul

[physics-fan3.14]

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

What the heck was the reserve set at? $12.4 mil is multiples of what those have sold for in the past decade. Surely it isn't worth that much.

[brg5658]

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

What the heck was the reserve set at? $12.4 mil is multiples of what those have sold for in the past decade. Surely it isn't worth that much.

 

I don't think anyone knows. Just more than $10.575 million!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The point being that about 30% of the "value" of the coin's bid at the time of the auction was bragging rights. I'm not saying when it sells next it won't have been a good investment for Legend/Morelan -- that's very plausible. There's always someone who wants to have the bragging rights.

 

The 1794 dollar sell price of $10,016,875 is actually the most ever successfully bid and won for a US coin at auction.

 

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

I guess you are correct. You certainly know more than me.

 

I have a bit more respect for the owner of the piece. Accordingly, my opinion was and is that the gentleman is not in need to impress anybody, and did not achieve what he has accomplished in life because he spends 3 Million dollars for bragging rights. It seems a little discourteous and haughty, to me, to state same in a manner of authority and finality and familiarity.

 

But I know nothing. I can only conclude, based on your in depth knowledge, that the second bidders were dumb and more importantly did not bid higher for bragging rights, because they should have known that was 30% of the value. I am sure they regret not consulting you.

 

I am sure the owner is glad that he consulted you, though. When did you turn down employment with the gentleman? Were you holding out for Ms. Sperber's slot?

[WoodenJefferson]

I must have been asleep at the wheel when all this was going down...wait, these auctions are out of my league.

 

Well, I hope Bruce visits his coin often and enjoys it.

[BillJones]

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

What the heck was the reserve set at? $12.4 mil is multiples of what those have sold for in the past decade. Surely it isn't worth that much.

 

I don't think anyone knows. Just more than $10.575 million!

 

The Pogues put "a good keeping price" on the 1794 and 1804 dollars. I guess they had to consign them to show that they were offering all of their holdings, but it certainly had to be a disappointment to those who were looking forward to buying those coins.

 

I thought that the starting bids (at the mid 7 figures already) were the Pogues' "protection prices," but they were not. As such the auction really seemed like it was shilled to me. It makes me glad that I'm not on a level with the people who participate in these sales.

[numisport]

The point being that about 30% of the "value" of the coin's bid at the time of the auction was bragging rights. I'm not saying when it sells next it won't have been a good investment for Legend/Morelan -- that's very plausible. There's always someone who wants to have the bragging rights.

 

The 1794 dollar sell price of $10,016,875 is actually the most ever successfully bid and won for a US coin at auction.

 

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

I guess you are correct. You certainly know more than me.

 

I have a bit more respect for the owner of the piece. Accordingly, my opinion was and is that the gentleman is not in need to impress anybody, and did not achieve what he has accomplished in life because he spends 3 Million dollars for bragging rights. It seems a little discourteous and haughty, to me, to state same in a manner of authority and finality and familiarity.

 

But I know nothing. I can only conclude, based on your in depth knowledge, that the second bidders were dumb and more importantly did not bid higher for bragging rights, because they should have known that was 30% of the value. I am sure they regret not consulting you.

 

I am sure the owner is glad that he consulted you, though. When did you turn down employment with the gentleman? Were you holding out for Ms. Sperber's slot?

I certainly agree that a significant portion of those coins' value is bragging rights. And moreover I don't think this does anything to enhance or expand the parameters of the hobby in general. There are many legitimately rare coins in the lower four figure range that can be purchased if one is patient.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The point being that about 30% of the "value" of the coin's bid at the time of the auction was bragging rights. I'm not saying when it sells next it won't have been a good investment for Legend/Morelan -- that's very plausible. There's always someone who wants to have the bragging rights.

 

The 1794 dollar sell price of $10,016,875 is actually the most ever successfully bid and won for a US coin at auction.

 

But, the Pogue 1804 silver dollar recently received a bid of $10,575,000 in the Stacks Auction of May 2016 (would have been $12.4 million with the juice), but that bid didn't reach the reserve, so the coin did not sell.

 

I guess you are correct. You certainly know more than me.

 

I have a bit more respect for the owner of the piece. Accordingly, my opinion was and is that the gentleman is not in need to impress anybody, and did not achieve what he has accomplished in life because he spends 3 Million dollars for bragging rights. It seems a little discourteous and haughty, to me, to state same in a manner of authority and finality and familiarity.

 

But I know nothing. I can only conclude, based on your in depth knowledge, that the second bidders were dumb and more importantly did not bid higher for bragging rights, because they should have known that was 30% of the value. I am sure they regret not consulting you.

 

I am sure the owner is glad that he consulted you, though. When did you turn down employment with the gentleman? Were you holding out for Ms. Sperber's slot?

I certainly agree that a significant portion of those coins' value is bragging rights. And moreover I don't think this does anything to enhance or expand the parameters of the hobby in general. There are many legitimately rare coins in the lower four figure range that can be purchased if one is patient.

 

Is there any direct knowledge that this is fact? I am just curious. I would think that the only method to logically conclude that 2 bidders would enter a $3 million dollar bragging rights contest is direct knowledge. Of course we all form perceptions of an event and form opinions. I simply would be interested why there is a thought that accomplished wealthy individuals and very astute business persons would risk $3 million dollars on a coin because of bragging rights. It seems a little assumptive and based only on the perception of their wealth.

 

How and why would it not enhance the hobby? Whether you believe the coin is a 'legitimate" rarity or not, or that there are other "legitimate" rare coins (and I confess I have no idea what that means) in the lower 4 figure range available for purchase, has absolutely nothing to do with the coin under discussion or the cost to the owner to acquire it. It is almost a statement of jealousy because a wealthy person purchased a coin, and to justify the action jealous persons assume it was done by a braggadocio. That seems a little disingenuous, to me. But it is just an opinion. I really know nothing.

[Afterword]

It would be interesting to know if someone could show such an object to someone without mentioning how much it cost or hoping they would ask.

[coinman1794]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

With no documentation that this was "the first silver dollar struck," we are left with only die state. It could potentially be "the earliest surviving piece struck, which was not circulated."

[physics-fan3.14]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

With no documentation that this was "the first silver dollar struck," we are left with only die state. It could potentially be "the earliest surviving piece struck, which was not circulated."

 

I'll buy that for a dollar.

[Conder101]

It IS the earliest die stage piece known, and it is also the ONLY piece known from that die stage.

[coinman1794]

If I were a brand new mint, making a special strike of my very first coin, I would absolutely not put a silver plug in the damn thing, and I wouldn't scratch it all to hell with adjustment marks. I would choose a perfect planchet and make a really nice piece.

 

With no documentation that this was "the first silver dollar struck," we are left with only die state. It could potentially be "the earliest surviving piece struck, which was not circulated."

 

I'll buy that for a dollar.

 

That distinction has to get it up to at least melt value

[RWB]

Is it asserted the coin is from the first die pair used or the first pair designated on a list?

[Conder101]

Well they only used one die pair for that year.

[RWB]

....that would present some limitations in determining the first coin off new dies.

[coinman1794]

There is literally no way to tell.