new pcgs board policy

[hammer-migration]

Check your facts, Beaver, before sinking your teeth into a rotting plank, and coming up with a mouthful of dirt. I showed no one HOW to compromise a comic slab. Gave no list of tools or instructions. There was a post, "Can the CGC slab be compromised and a label switched". I posted, "YES, easily!". Someone answered, "IMPOSSIBLE" or something on that order and I IMAGED in THREE attachments:

 

Image 1: A slab cleanly opened without cracks or any evidence of scuffs or bruises, focusing on the pin/cup assembly at the corners.

Image 2: An inner well, pulled from a slab with the label cleanly removed WITHOUT evidence of tampering where it is inserted

Image 3: The label itself with no evidence of tampering where the welds are supposed to keep it in place.

 

There were NO ACCOMPANYING INSTRUCTIONS on how I accomplished this. No HINTS, no suggestions on what to do in any way instructive on the subject of label replacement, bait and switch, or commiting any kind of misrepresentation. I only SHOWED that it could be done and put a statement with the pictures, "Please do not ask me HOW. I will not answer that question remotely or directly". To THIS DAY, I have not told ONE single person, ANYONE, HOW it could be done, keeping my PROMISE, my WORD to Arch that I would NOT.

CGC HAS improved upon the welds and the package, at this point, is FAR more unbreachable than it was at the time of the thread/post.

I realize that this is the topsy-turvy COINEE world that you are posting in, but before you launch into a tirade completely bereft of facts, CHECK YOURSELF, TRY not to post until you KNOW the facts. It makes you look inane in the eyes of those that KNOW the facts when you pontificate on subjects that you haven't a clue about, which SHOULD embarrass you (that is if a COINEE can truly be embarrassed by anything).

 

[Architecht]

Hammer gets a little defensive at times.

 

You may notice this from time to time. (laugh)

 

Arch

[jeh46544]

(that is if a COINEE can truly be embarrassed by anything)

 

I'd be embarrassed if I collected comics.

[chrisfuccione]

Interesting. It's also interesting to me that people over there have the impression that we censor things over here. Odd.

 

Perhaps I should open the penalty box to general view for a day. It contains basically every post I've ever pulled. Perhaps that would enlighten people about exactly what gets pulled. My sense is that there are those who think that we pull substantive issues that are just critical of the "Wrong Things". And that's not even remotely true.

 

We pull offensive material. And while the coin guys over there may think that they know what "offensive material" is, and that it's ok... my only comment would be... they've never met the comic guys. (laughing)

 

Arch

 

Arch I sort of understand why this post got pulled. I guess CGC was scared that threre might be a flaw with thier slabs. They did not want any Tom, or Harry trying to pull apart the slabs and to try and put them back together.

 

But I have a few questions about that thread that got pulled.

 

1) You said that you do not pull substantive issues that are just critical of the "Wrong Things". Well this topic was defently that. It was an issue that needed to be looked at and discussed. Pulling it led to much discustion and suspition on the comic side.

 

2) It is like the post never exsisted. You opened up the pentaly box and I do not find that thread anywhere. Is it like out of sight out of mind?

 

3) Why was Meth put in "time out " for a while over this? As I said before I do not agree how Meth was treated during this whole thing. He gave valuable infomation that your company

could of used. But instead of being thanked he was almost baned? Whats up with that?

 

CHRIS

 

[Architecht]

It was determined that the post could encourage and/or enable fraudulent behavior, so it was yanked.

 

Arch

[coinman1794]

I strongly agree with NGC on this. They are now aware of any possible problem that may exist with the slab, and it does not need to be broadcast to anyone else but NGC. If I were the one who noticed this problem, rather than post it here, I would have PM'ed them. It is not healthy to openly suggest that a slab can be compromized, (even if the EXACT proceedure is not given).

 

This can't be compared to PCGS's censoring. PCGS is trying to save face buy censoring people that they don't like, and who they think might damage their inflated image. NGC is trying to protect their slab integrity and promote non-criminal behavior.

 

In my opinion, it just makes sense to stop this kind of talk. I think this was a legitimate deletion.

[EVillageProwler]

I agree w/ Coinman. I would've expressed this sentiment last night, but I was getting too tired!

 

EVP

 

[EVillageProwler]

I wonder if David Hall thinks that when we refer to him as "HRH" that we mean "His Royal Highness"???

 

EVP

 

[jtryka]

what does it mean? sorry I'm a little slow

[jtryka]

Just found this on the CU website:

 

"David Hall arguably understands collectibles markets and how they work better than anyone in the world. He became a full-time rare coin dealer in 1972 and was quickly one of the major players. In the 1980's he was the man behind the major market innovations of the decade; guaranteed buy/sell markets, electronic trading, and his coup de grace, the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS). "

 

In his photo he looks a lot younger than I expected, I always thought he was older (like Montgomery Burns older).

[gmarguli]

The hair dye makes him look younger.

 

I wonder why they don't talk about his Mercenaries book and his recommendations.

[davefperry]

"HRH" is short for HomeRunHall, David Hall's handle at the other boards. The hair dye explains all the fingerprints, too.

 

Arch, please help this simpleton find the 'expand' button in the upper right. It doesn't show on my screen.

 

 

[gmarguli]

Arch, please help this simpleton find the 'expand' button in the upper right. It doesn't show on my screen.

 

I couldn't find it either, but I didn't want to be the first dummy to admit that.

[jeh46544]

I think the expand button may be the "threaded" button at the top right. It allows you to see the first post and each of the other posts in order, but you have to click on "Re: new pcgs board policy" which is next to the posters name that posted that post. But, I could be wrong.

[Architecht]

When you are looking at a list of all the posts in a forum you will see a list of option in the upper right as follows:

 

"Post Previous Index Next Expand Collapse"

 

Expand will show you a threaded view of everything in that list. When you are drilled into a particular post and viewing many responses, these links change to say:

 

"Previous Index Next Flat Threaded"

 

threaded gives a similar view to "expand" except on only one post.

 

Arch

[gmarguli]

And the banning continues. Looks like they banned NumisEd today.

 

He used to talk about how PCGS wasn't infallible and that you needed to buy the coin and not the slab.

 

Looks like the David Hall "I'm a poor businessman and I want to censor the customers with complaints" rampage continues.

 

Maybe we can get him over here.

 

On a side note, who wants to take bets on the next regular member to get banned over there?

[Please Delete-migration]

Never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, underestimate a sheep. They are natural born killers.

[MarkFeld]

He used to talk about how PCGS wasn't infallible and that you needed to buy the coin and not the slab

 

Greg, while I am sorry that NumisEd was banned (and I have voiced my displeasure on the CU forum), his comments and tone were typically not nearly as subtle as you portrayed in your post! And that is an understatement.

[mark]

Ditto what Mark Feld said about subtleness.

 

Also ditto the thought that PCGS is busy shooting themself in the foot with these bannings. I think PCGS has a reasonably thick skin but when someone penetrates their skin, that person ought to be sent to a penalty box for a while rather than outright banned.

 

Ah well, if he makes it over, I can read his posts here, a'la Gereg's posts. But I sure miss the TJ/Gereg days on the PCGS open forum. Lurking was a lot of fun back then. The NGC open board has all those stupid comix guys littering up the place...

 

Mark

[gmarguli]

He used to talk about how PCGS wasn't infallible and that you needed to buy the coin and not the slab

 

Greg, while I am sorry that NumisEd was banned (and I have voiced my displeasure on the CU forum), his comments and tone were typically not nearly as subtle as you portrayed in your post! And that is an understatement.

 

 

I fully agree that he was blunt and outspoken and I'll also admit that I didn't agree with his opinions on a lot of subjects.

 

I still think it is pathetic for them to ban members that don't think PCGS is god especially without warning. Behind the scenes they aren't too happy with any non-pro PCGS talk on their forums, regardless of whether it is true or not.

 

David Hall is trying to rule those forums by fear. That works really well. Just two days ago I was talking to my friends Quasi and Uday and they told me that ruling by fear is the only way to go.

[dakra]

I can't believe they didn't learn their lesson the first time. Are they looking to get bad publicity or is David HOLE just a cowardly individual. He is losing his credibility with every step he takes. What a jerk.

 

-Dave

[kranky]

I usually avoid threads about board members, but in my opinion PCGS is extraordinarily tolerant of people bashing their company on their own boards.

 

Three times in one thread the guy kept questioning DH's integrity, intimating that those who believed DH's statement that DHRC does not submit coins to PCGS were being naive.

 

Frankly, if my integrity was being questioned over and over after I addressed the concern, I'd probably ban someone too. Disagreements are fine, but that seemed to be over the line.

[dpoole]

All I can say is, NumisEd sure didn't last long. They're getting a pretty quick trigger finger over there.

[ldhair]

I would like to here just what he said before I made a decision how I feel.

 

If I came here to NGC's house and started trashing it, I would be banned in a matter of minutes. And rightfully so.

 

It's there site and I respect that. JMHO

[gmarguli]

Three times in one thread the guy kept questioning DH's integrity, intimating that those who believed DH's statement that DHRC does not submit coins to PCGS were being naive.

 

Frankly, if my integrity was being questioned over and over after I addressed the concern, I'd probably ban someone too. Disagreements are fine, but that seemed to be over the line.

 

 

What a second. David Hall is a proven liar. He has very little integrity in the coin industry and even less friends.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't PCGS pay to settle an insider grading charge years back? If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, but I thought that was what the FTC settlement was about.

 

DHRC may not DIRECTLY submit coins to PCGS, but I doubt it is as clear cut as DH would like everyone to believe. Would DH be willing to disclose EXACTLY how he got his PR70s and would he disclose any "pre-grading deals" that he had with the submitters? It's up to him to show us proof that he has no arrangement with the submitters.

 

Given how much importance there is on one grade point, and given the price differences, I think it is awful that the company that grades coins also sells them.

 

I also remember hearing that B&M doesn't submit coins to PCGS. Then I heard this was not true. A BS explanation was given.

 

The appearance of insider grading is just as bad as actual insider grading.

[crito]

David Hall admited he personally walks coins into the grading room for prefered customers. The same customers who get the best grades, and the same customers he buys most of his inventory from. What more is there to "get"?

 

[chrisfuccione]

Here we go again! When will PCGS(David Hall) learn? The coin collecting community is a small community. If he keeps on banning members he will only hurt his wallet. After a while (sooner not later) he will end up getting bad press over this. CHRIS

[crito]

He has the right to do whatever he wants with his board... and I have the right to do whatever I want with my money. I don't want to give it to him.

[BushMan]

DHRC may not DIRECTLY submit coins to PCGS, but I doubt it is as clear cut as DH would like everyone to believe. Would DH be willing to disclose EXACTLY how he got his PR70s and would he disclose any "pre-grading deals" that he had with the submitters? It's up to him to show us proof that he has no arrangement with the submitters.

Greg- You are so right. The DHRC/PCGS/CLCT situation is fraught with so many potential conflicts, you can't count them all. It's not hard to identify a lot of, say 50 extremely high quality proof sets, with numerous potential 70s. You then sell them to a submission dealer for cost, plus 25%. Along with a pre-determined agreement to repurchase all the coins for 250% of sales price, upon their arrival from PCGS. The submission dealer submits them to PCGS. The submission dealer gets the coins back and immediately sells them for much more than they paid for them. The original identifier of the coins then can sell them for 10 times what he paid for the coins.

[braddick]

Greg, I'm afraid if PCGS could double-ban you, they would!