BU or slider?

[Nutmeg Coin]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291694105095?rmvSB=true

 

Personally I don't see any good excuse to not have coins like this certified, as $10 Indians with light friction, etc. can be sold as Unc. when they aren't.

[tommy44]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291694105095?rmvSB=true

 

Personally I don't see any good excuse to not have coins like this certified, as $10 Indians with light friction, etc. can be sold as Unc. when they aren't.

 

I agree, and I say slider.

[BillJones]

There is a reason why the more cynical among us say that BU = "Been Used."

[Nutmeg Coin]

A friend who likes Modern coins pointed out the auction, and I told him it looked fishy. Have had numerous sliders offered to me, the $10 Indians (as well as incuse Indians) can be hard to discern as to AU or BU.

[MarkFeld]

"I don't see any reason why the owner of any coin should have to have it certified."

 

No "excuse" is needed.That's not the issue. The issue is how the seller of an uncertified coin represents it.

[AHFreak]

I wouldn't be surprised if that seller just buys problem coins either in details holders or raw just to turn around and sell them on Ebay as BU GEM Super duper Mega Stunners... blows my mind that an operation like this can do what they do for so long... and the buyers are lined up ready to pay real money for these "great coin deals" it is a head scratcher.

 

I'd say it's AU, and probably a problem coin to boot.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I checked his problem feedback; it seems like a number of his customers bought the raw coins and had them come back in details holders.

[coinman1794]

This coin looks AU55 at best, as there is obvious wear over the high points.

[Danye West]

Not a BU coin!

[mumu]

I have been amazed by this sellers longevity as well as I have started a thread about it. Here's what really baffles me. How on one end of the spectrum you have a demand for stickers representing additional opinions of the TPGs and there are so many buyers only willing to buy coins stickered, meanwhile on the other end there is an endless supply of buyers for this . While so many sellers sit in the middle with good honest coins that simply will not sell because they don't have stickers or blitz marketing. If the PNG was doing their job, coin buyers wouldn't even go near a seller like this.

[coinman_23885]

I have been amazed by this sellers longevity as well as I have started a thread about it. Here's what really baffles me. How on one end of the spectrum you have a demand for stickers representing additional opinions of the TPGs and there are so many buyers only willing to buy coins stickered, meanwhile on the other end there is an endless supply of buyers for this . While so many sellers sit in the middle with good honest coins that simply will not sell because they don't have stickers or blitz marketing. If the PNG was doing their job, coin buyers wouldn't even go near a seller like this.

 

As much as I criticize the PNG, the PNG has nothing to do with this particular seller and shouldn't be blamed. The PNG only claims to regulate its own members. GSC is not a PNG member to the best of my knowledge.

[AHFreak]

And regardless, trying to place the blame with someone who "should be" regulating, or "should be" educating or however it is the PMG should prevent this is IMO misguided and unrealistic. The bottom line is that it is up to the consumer, the buyer, the end user, etc to be smarter than to go buy coins like this, or from sellers like this.

 

I know that not everyone is like me, but I make this point to demonstrate that it is completely possible to protect oneself without ever relying on anyone other than oneself for said protection. I literally didn't know jack about coins before 2010. I didn't know this business existed. I didn't have to look very far at all to know that I'd be an insufficiently_thoughtful_person to buy any coins at all from a seller like this. In fact I realized immediately that buying a raw coin and expecting anything other than a problem coin would make me an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. As I've educated myself I've learned that it is possible to find good problem-free coins in the raw at a great value. But that only came with time spent learning and developing my eye.

 

Why does everyone seem to want to blame everyone besides the buyers in situations like these? The buyers are the only ones to blame, if not for them sellers like this would go broke trying to sell. There are to many available resources to educate, inform and protect yourself these days. I do empathize with the old man who gets taken by a shady seller when that happens, but very often the guys buying this stuff are doing so with a "make a quick buck at someone else's expense" mentality... I don't feel sorry for people like that. Not for a second.

[mumu]

I have been amazed by this sellers longevity as well as I have started a thread about it. Here's what really baffles me. How on one end of the spectrum you have a demand for stickers representing additional opinions of the TPGs and there are so many buyers only willing to buy coins stickered, meanwhile on the other end there is an endless supply of buyers for this . While so many sellers sit in the middle with good honest coins that simply will not sell because they don't have stickers or blitz marketing. If the PNG was doing their job, coin buyers wouldn't even go near a seller like this.

 

As much as I criticize the PNG, the PNG has nothing to do with this particular seller and shouldn't be blamed. The PNG only claims to regulate its own members. GSC is not a PNG member to the best of my knowledge.

 

Directly, no. But if the PNG wasn't such a passive joke of a "guild" they would have a safe marketplace that would put sellers like this out of business. I agree buyer should beware. But when there is a purposeful attempt to misrepresent, even the savvy can be gotten.

[James_OldeTowne]

It definitely does not appear "new" from the photos, and I don't even necessarily believe it would straight-grade anything. I have upon numerous occasion recommended to my customers NOT to buy from this particular seller, based on "wins" they have had in the past.

[WoodenJefferson]

Well, it's not a Gem BU++ they only gave it a Choice BU++ (the usual defense, the high points show a weak strike)

 

 

 

 

Note: Since I don't do gold and I know the composition is soft even with the copper added, but wouldn't friction from the Mint to the reserve bank and then to other institutions wear these coins down and would that not constitute circulation wear?

 

Where is the line between BU vs wear from bank to bank?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I doubt that Anacs or ICG would grade it much differently than NGC or PCGS in this case. A Png dealer showed me one of the much better date s mint $10 Indians at a show with the PCGS OH AU58 tag; he said it was probably a 62 by today's standards. NGC graded it AU55 in a show express. So not only wasn't it undergraded but the supposed best grade you get in a show special didn't help. He looked like the cat that swallowed the canary when I went back to his table to show him the result the next day.

 

One of the authors of a notable currency book was talking to me about one of the currency dealers who was buying AU notes in major auctions and selling them as Unc.. When there are huge spreads from AU to BU this type of game is very likely.

[BillJones]

You guys wonder how this eBay sellers stays in business, but at least he is selling genuine coins. The counterfeit scammers are still plying their trade on eBay, and appear to be having some success.

 

I downloaded this picture of a counterfeit 1902-S $10 gold a few months ago into my counterfeit file.

 

 

Here are some close-up pictures that show that this piece is no good.

 

 

A few days ago someone ATS posted a blog about another eBay counterfeit. Darned if it wasn't this same piece back up there again. According to the the eBay records it sold for $665.08 with nine bids placed on it.

 

There are worse things than than cleaning and over grading.

 

BTW the serial number on this peice does match a genuine 1902-S eagle in an NGC slab. NGC has a copyright notice on the photo so I can't show it here of the genuine piece.

[EleMint Man]

So the counterfeit 1902 S Eagle was slabbed in a counterfeit holder. Any Idea how this is done? I can tell right away this looks suspicious...made in China, heh.

The image on NGC's certification shows much more detail on this coin. Strange, it lists a 0 pop....should show at least 1 and a value too. Never seen anything like this!

 

 

NGC Cert: 3241813-020

Date/Info: 1902 S

Denomination: $10

Grade: CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE

NGC Price Guide: N/A

NGC Census: 0

NGC Coin Explorer: View

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This is how capitalism works, isn't it? Some guy buys an ungraded coim thinking he is going to "beat the system" and make money. Then he doesn't.

[johnny9434]

wasent there some trouble with the seller in the past? something to do with their reputation? just wondering

[BillJones]

wasent there some trouble with the seller in the past? something to do with their reputation? just wondering

 

If you can judge a book by its cover, here the picture that the seller posted of himself on eBay.

 

 

[BillJones]

So the counterfeit 1902 S Eagle was slabbed in a counterfeit holder. Any Idea how this is done? I can tell right away this looks suspicious...made in China, heh.

The image on NGC's certification shows much more detail on this coin. Strange, it lists a 0 pop....should show at least 1 and a value too. Never seen anything like this!

 

 

NGC Cert: 3241813-020

Date/Info: 1902 S

Denomination: $10

Grade: CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE

NGC Price Guide: N/A

NGC Census: 0

NGC Coin Explorer: View

 

That is odd because the piece that is shown in the NGC picture is not the same item. It looks to be genuine. Now I'm confused.

[coinman1794]

So the counterfeit 1902 S Eagle was slabbed in a counterfeit holder. Any Idea how this is done? I can tell right away this looks suspicious...made in China, heh.

The image on NGC's certification shows much more detail on this coin. Strange, it lists a 0 pop....should show at least 1 and a value too. Never seen anything like this!

 

 

NGC Cert: 3241813-020

Date/Info: 1902 S

Denomination: $10

Grade: CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE

NGC Price Guide: N/A

NGC Census: 0

NGC Coin Explorer: View

 

That is odd because the piece that is shown in the NGC picture is not the same item. It looks to be genuine. Now I'm confused.

 

The coin AND the slab are counterfeit. An authentic 1902-S NGC-61 3241813-020 does exist, but NGC is apparently aware of the counterfeits made of it.

[AHFreak]

wasent there some trouble with the seller in the past? something to do with their reputation? just wondering

 

If you can judge a book by its cover, here the picture that the seller posted of himself on eBay.

 

 

No FREAKIN WAY!!! That is SOOOOOO classic!

 

Thanks for sharing that made my day

[Nutmeg Coin]

That punk would fit right in to a B movie like "Idiocracy".

[EleMint Man]

 

 

As far as an honest description of an item up for sale, I found this quite interesting.

 

The seller certainly goes out of his way in making a detailed description!

 

Some may argue about the pricing saying it is too high. I say the coin looks to be

 

about MS64 and the "Creative" toning requires time and know how and the pricing

 

is acceptable. For some!

 

http://www.amazon.com/1923-Peace-Dollar-MS-64/dp/B019ZSK1OC/ref=sr_1_14?s=fiona-hardware&ie=UTF8&qid=1457255155&sr=8-14&keywords=1923+MS64+Peace+dollar

 

[Lucky One]

I don't see any reason why the owner of any coin should have to have it certified. No "excuse" is needed.That's not the issue. The issue is how the seller of an uncertified coin represents it.

 

I couldn't agree more. Many of us here pre-date the TPGs by decades. I sold many gem BU coins at market prices over the past several years on ebay and passed a lot of great deals on to buyers, some who told me what the pros graded them. Needless to say, I wish I had a select few of them back (one MS65 went MS67, and an early capped bust half in mint state that I called "MS62, maybe 63" went a full 63 for the buyer an made him a couple thousand dollars richer) but the coins were bought right long ago and we got all of our money out of them regardless of the ones we undergraded. How many returns? I'm sure you're thinking. Well, I think probably 1 in a hundred, if that. One gentleman boought about a quarter of my choice to gem Morgans, just kept coming back for about a year until they were all gone. I'm sure he was having fun getting them graded, I was a very picky buyer as I put that stuff away.

 

Anyway, the point is that I didn't need the coins slabbed and obviously neither did the buyers. The ONLY person who needs third party grading is the one who doesn't have a clue what he's looking at, and the TPGs of course who rely on pure ignorance for their living.

 

The way I see it, if you don't know how to grade you shouldn't buy slabs either, or at least have a pro that you KNOW you can trust select them for you. CAC and Wings is another good idea if you don't know how to grade, at least it is a second professional opinion and should make any transaction safe for the unexperienced.

 

I spent my time learning early on in my hobby career and made my mistakes with five and ten dollar coins. I wish everyone would make it a goal to become proficient in discerning grade, condition and alterations (natural or due to doctoring) as well as striking characteristics on 18th & 19th century coinage so that they actually understood what they were looking at, but then there would be no job for professional graders. Oh well, I guess you can't keep everyone happy...

[Lucky One]

This one seems to be a question of personal responsibility to me- the responsibility of the buyer. Many sellers on ebay are well known for wearing blinders while grading, and the AU-BU range is where most of their mistakes are made, at least in my personal experience. When I bought circulated coins I felt safe (and I was), but any time I considered bidding on a BU coin I thought twice, three times before I bid it up past AU money. But I can't blame the seller as long as he gives a full return privilege. If someone is foolish enough to spend half their budget on return postage I guess that's OK, but for my money, after returning coins to them I have pretty much ignored any 'BU' coins. That goes for many ebay sellers, all with feedback too good to be true, but that pretty much tells you who their biggest customers are- the grossly inexperienced. And if they are willing to buy all those expensive ungraded coins without any proficiency training and take the chance on being burnt big time I guess they deserve what they get in the end. It reminds me of all those who believed obamacare would lower our insurance premiums without looking at the real world- that didn't work out too well for most either.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Since the best consensus on the coin cited was that it wasn't even Unc., the description in ebay was false; and there is usually a clear line between Unc. and AU though there are plenty of exceptions.

 

Someone selling many raw coins on ebay that graded significantly higher than the seller asserted? An extremely rare event from what I have seen whether online, at coin shows or in stores. Most auction companies require coins to be certified before sale, and sure people can cite exceptions to that rule but they represent a tiny statistical percentage.

 

Certification protects both buyers and sellers and anyone selling a collection involving tough, subtle characteristics, or across various hard to grade coins and denominations, owe it to those concerned to get the coins graded. With grading standards requiring a level of expertise and practice beyond the ken of most people, it behooves people even more to get coins certified.

[Lucky One]

I wouldn't be surprised if that seller just buys problem coins either in details holders or raw just to turn around and sell them on Ebay as BU GEM Super duper Mega Stunners... blows my mind that an operation like this can do what they do for so long... and the buyers are lined up ready to pay real money for these "great coin deals" it is a head scratcher.

 

I'd say it's AU, and probably a problem coin to boot.

 

I think this seller buys from the hotel buyers who advertise to "buy silver, gold and jewelry at top prices" and then pay you a quarter to fifty cents on the dollar. These guys are buying the stuff so cheap that you'd think they would be more honest since they'll make a profit on most of their material no matter how cheap it sells at auction.

 

As for head scratching- I think I figured it out long ago- you just can't fix some kinds of stupid...