Lost numismatic items and the usps

[Nutmeg Coin]

I spoke with a usps employee in the Atlanta, GA area on lost numismatic items and she seemed to suggest that if coins and currency items get separated from their packages, there is no way to re-connect them to their rightful owner. If there are no people who know numismatics sorting through lost items in their Atlanta recovery center, how could they possibly do that job?? If certified coins and currency end up in the lost mail center, what would solutions be to re-connect them to their rightful owners?

[Conder101]

Certified material shouldn't be that hard to reunite with the proper owner as long as they are still in their holders. Owner has serial number and so does the item. All the recovery center has to do is list the serial number. Denomination and service would help but wouldn't be absolutely needed.

[Nutmeg Coin]

How could the grading services help with this? By having a database of lost, stolen or missing certified coins reported? They the rightful owner provides proof and gets the item back? Frankly I doubt the usps is doing their due diligence on this.

[Zebo]

Contact the USPS Office of Inspector General. They may be able to help with a solution.

[WoodenJefferson]

In this day and age, agencies claim they do not have the 'man power' it takes to service their customers expectations.

 

Note: That's why there are bulk lots at auctions.

[bourse28]

I insure coins over $100 shipped via USPS. Sig confirmation over $200.

 

As far as coins separated from their packages during shipment I would wager, rather sadly they are in the possession of the thief. Items which could be subject to breakage should be in a box or marked fragile.

 

I doubt the grading services or even the ANA have the time or personnel to take on such a task of lost numismatic items nor would I want the expense of such a project included in their fees.

 

I have had only one coin lost in over 20+ years of shipment via USPS. What about you?

 

I do like the idea of an online database with the serial numbers of either slabs or missing banknotes much like one would check NGC certificate verify. Unfortunately unless this is a revenue generating activity it appears very cost prohibitive.

 

 

 

[Conder101]

Another problem with an online listing is the headache of pieces getting listed that were only misplaced and not stolen, or sold and the seller forgot and thought it was stolen or recovered and not reported for removal.

[Loop AU Pty]

In March 2013 NGC shipped nearly $20k's worth of our graded coins back to us - by USPS DOMESTIC PARCEL - no registration, no tracking - WE ARE IN AUSTRALIA.

 

Every time we asked for an explanation we were stonewalled - first by the despatch dept, then by Max Speigel, then by a very aggressive New Jersey law firm.

 

NGC told us it was OUR fault that items were not returned to us - despite us sending by COURIER to US from Australia - a journey which took 3 days, Brisbane to Sarasota.

 

When we then came to log in here, we find our account has been 'permanently banned'.

 

No help from NGC, despite all items having serial numbers in slabs - NOTHING - and no response to our ongoing dissatisfaction, leading us to conclude that NGC has acted incompetently and knowingly in sanctioning the theft of our and our clients' property.

 

We have lost many customers and compensated all clients for their loss, which was the correct thing to do.

 

It is apparent that NGC does not have the same ethics or sense of accountability to its customers - and we paid for grading in advance - then to have the despatch dept put a parcel - one parcel - containing $20k's worth of silver & gold into the domestic postal system - to disappear without a trace.

 

No compensation, no explanation - and the hush-up job continues.

 

So, we have reported to Federal Police in US and Aus - they are investigating currently and assure us they will have information soon. The implications are obviously very serious for any company involved in grading due to the issues of trust, integrity and being seen to act appropriately - rather than have any hand in a material loss.

 

Due to the lack of cooperation experienced we can only surmise that such a position results from NGC's clear culpability - and the consequent silence is increasingly DEAFENING.

 

Nearly 3 years in NGC still have not helped us trace the slabbed coins, despite having all the relevant information - some fabulous items in the order including a 1923 South Africa gold sovereign long case proof set.

 

Why no help, you might ask yourself?

 

Why indeed.

[e1cnr]

How could the grading services help with this? By having a database of lost, stolen or missing certified coins reported? They the rightful owner provides proof and gets the item back? Frankly I doubt the usps is doing their due diligence on this.

 

If the mail recovery center has found a certified coin, they could contact the grading service to find out who submitted the coin. At least it would start the process. I do think many valuable certified coins get lost and not recovered. Frequently they are insured or lost claim filed anyway. Most of the 'numismatic' material going through the Atlanta Recovery is plated from television advertisements with crappy packaging and little or no invoice / return address.

 

There are probably more certified coins stolen in the mailing process, than lost without documentation, making it to Atlanta Recovery.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The postal employees probably don't know what they are looking for. Large nearly 1 oz. coins are going to be easier to identify and find. If they let area coin clubs with background clearances connect the dots they would have a much better chance. Certification numbers with NGC, PCGS and other grading service coins could be entered into a database that could be checked online by anyone looking for those coins. This is not that complicated for systems engineers.

[MarkFeld]

In March 2013 NGC shipped nearly $20k's worth of our graded coins back to us - by USPS DOMESTIC PARCEL - no registration, no tracking - WE ARE IN AUSTRALIA.

 

Every time we asked for an explanation we were stonewalled - first by the despatch dept, then by Max Speigel, then by a very aggressive New Jersey law firm.

 

NGC told us it was OUR fault that items were not returned to us - despite us sending by COURIER to US from Australia - a journey which took 3 days, Brisbane to Sarasota.

 

When we then came to log in here, we find our account has been 'permanently banned'.

 

No help from NGC, despite all items having serial numbers in slabs - NOTHING - and no response to our ongoing dissatisfaction, leading us to conclude that NGC has acted incompetently and knowingly in sanctioning the theft of our and our clients' property.

 

We have lost many customers and compensated all clients for their loss, which was the correct thing to do.

 

It is apparent that NGC does not have the same ethics or sense of accountability to its customers - and we paid for grading in advance - then to have the despatch dept put a parcel - one parcel - containing $20k's worth of silver & gold into the domestic postal system - to disappear without a trace.

 

No compensation, no explanation - and the hush-up job continues.

 

So, we have reported to Federal Police in US and Aus - they are investigating currently and assure us they will have information soon. The implications are obviously very serious for any company involved in grading due to the issues of trust, integrity and being seen to act appropriately - rather than have any hand in a material loss.

 

Due to the lack of cooperation experienced we can only surmise that such a position results from NGC's clear culpability - and the consequent silence is increasingly DEAFENING.

 

Nearly 3 years in NGC still have not helped us trace the slabbed coins, despite having all the relevant information - some fabulous items in the order including a 1923 South Africa gold sovereign long case proof set.

 

Why no help, you might ask yourself?

 

Why indeed.

 

Welcome to the forum and very sorry for your trouble.

 

Two questions quickly come to mind:

 

1) Did you list insurance values for each coin on the submission invoice(s)?

 

2) Did you request a particular type of return shipment?

[Loop AU Pty]

Hi Mark,

 

Yes insurance values were on all documentation on submission.

 

When we called NGC prior to sending the shipment - our first - and last - I was told that because we were in Australia we would be able to 'choose a return shipping option before despatch' from Sarasota.

 

At that time there were no international shipping options on the submission forms they'd provided so NGC told us to leave that blank - a customer service representative would 'take care of that' for us.

 

We sent the items in a large secure box by international courier - clearly marked - and we reminded NGC in our conversation that we required a similarly reliable method of return - 3 day service if possible.

 

The gradings appeared online about three weeks after submission, and we contacted the company to ask where they were up to with our order. Each time we rang there we were told the order was 'nearly ready' - this happened twice. The third time we were getting worried - at that point they told us it'd been 'sent by USPS'.

 

I asked their office staff 'what kind of USPS' and they said 'domestic'.

 

In the following days we called seven or eight times, insisting that NGC find our consignment - they knew full well what was inside the box - and that we are in Australia.

 

After a few days NGC would place our phone call on hold - sometimes for up to 20 minutes - and eventually then recently promoted Max Spegel took my call. We voiced our extreme concern at the whereabouts if our clients' property - and were met with total indifference. If it was us, we would've mustered all resources to find the box.

 

Several weeks later we received a phone call from a lawyer in New Jersey and an email which offered approximately $7500 as 'a consideration' - on the basis that we had not instructed NGC which shipping method we required for return and consequently were 'jointly responsible' for any loss arising.

 

We'd been calling NGC for several weeks to ensure that we could instruct them prior to despatch, as they'd asked us to do - this was clear in every phone conversation we had with them and we were assured at least twice that this would be taken care of after grading.

 

Thereafter NGC went to ground - why would they publish details of such a ridiculous error - sending a valuable consignment to a client overseas - by regular USPS untracked, unregistered domestic parcel mail?

 

One of the last pieces of information we got on the parcel was from USPS - they said the box had taken 5 days to get to their Miami sort facility from Sarasota. Five days? I usually do that drive in around three and a half hours. The box had simply 'disappeared'.

 

It may be still floating around the postal system - however not at any point has NGC offered to notify dealers or lend any help to find that consignment. No communications, no report of an investigation - no publicity - nothing.

 

Why would anyone in their right mind send a consignment to another continent - by USPS domestic mail. NGC had our full contact details - email & phone # - why wouldn't they simply send a courtesy email to us to let us know that grading was complete and they were about to return our goods?

 

We await the return of our property.

[MarkFeld]

Hi Mark,

 

Yes insurance values were on all documentation on submission.

 

When we called NGC prior to sending the shipment - our first - and last - I was told that because we were in Australia we would be able to 'choose a return shipping option before despatch' from Sarasota.

 

At that time there were no international shipping options on the submission forms they'd provided so NGC told us to leave that blank - a customer service representative would 'take care of that' for us.

 

We sent the items in a large secure box by international courier - clearly marked - and we reminded NGC in our conversation that we required a similarly reliable method of return - 3 day service if possible.

 

The gradings appeared online about three weeks after submission, and we contacted the company to ask where they were up to with our order. Each time we rang there we were told the order was 'nearly ready' - this happened twice. The third time we were getting worried - at that point they told us it'd been 'sent by USPS'.

 

I asked their office staff 'what kind of USPS' and they said 'domestic'.

 

In the following days we called seven or eight times, insisting that NGC find our consignment - they knew full well what was inside the box - and that we are in Australia.

 

After a few days NGC would place our phone call on hold - sometimes for up to 20 minutes - and eventually then recently promoted Max Spegel took my call. We voiced our extreme concern at the whereabouts if our clients' property - and were met with total indifference. If it was us, we would've mustered all resources to find the box.

 

Several weeks later we received a phone call from a lawyer in New Jersey and an email which offered approximately $7500 as 'a consideration' - on the basis that we had not instructed NGC which shipping method we required for return and consequently were 'jointly responsible' for any loss arising.

 

We'd been calling NGC for several weeks to ensure that we could instruct them prior to despatch, as they'd asked us to do - this was clear in every phone conversation we had with them and we were assured at least twice that this would be taken care of after grading.

 

Thereafter NGC went to ground - why would they publish details of such a ridiculous error - sending a valuable consignment to a client overseas - by regular USPS untracked, unregistered domestic parcel mail?

 

One of the last pieces of information we got on the parcel was from USPS - they said the box had taken 5 days to get to their Miami sort facility from Sarasota. Five days? I usually do that drive in around three and a half hours. The box had simply 'disappeared'.

 

It may be still floating around the postal system - however not at any point has NGC offered to notify dealers or lend any help to find that consignment. No communications, no report of an investigation - no publicity - nothing.

 

Why would anyone in their right mind send a consignment to another continent - by USPS domestic mail. NGC had our full contact details - email & phone # - why wouldn't they simply send a courtesy email to us to let us know that grading was complete and they were about to return our goods?

 

We await the return of our property.

 

That sounds very much unlike the NGC I know. What about sending a detailed letter to Mark Salzverg, in case he is unaware of the situation?

 

Also, if you haven't already done so, you might want to contact the Numismatic Crime Information Center: here

[Nutmeg Coin]

I agree with the options above, but since the gentleman from Australia is dealing with a legal issue where NGC may have a significant story to tell here in contrast to what the poster stated, it likely does not belong in an NGC forum. It sounds like a legal matter requiring lawyers on both sides to hash it out rather than an appeal to a public forum where as he stated the moderators regarded his claims as problematic in the past on the subject.

[wheat'swheats]

The Atlanta P.O. is a disaster and I don't think their employees could reunite their own change with their pocket. Talking with management is like teaching a pig to whistle. An absolute waste of time. And what is even worse, I don't think they care.

[Loop AU Pty]

I agree with the options above, but since the gentleman from Australia is dealing with a legal issue where NGC may have a significant story to tell here in contrast to what the poster stated, it likely does not belong in an NGC forum. It sounds like a legal matter requiring lawyers on both sides to hash it out rather than an appeal to a public forum where as he stated the moderators regarded his claims as problematic in the past on the subject.

 

If you knew your client was in AUSTRALIA why would you send a valuable return consignment of $20k's worth of graded coins back to them by USPS DOMESTIC UNTRACKABLE PARCEL POST?

 

Sorry, are you missing something here?

 

We are.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Legal matters need to be addressed through lawyers and state agencies that deal with hundreds of these cases on a weekly basis: http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divisions-Offices/Consumer-Services/Consumer-Resources/Consumer-Protection/File-a-Complaint

 

Also the usps inspectors and other people may have jurisdiction. You could also subscribe to an inexpensive legal service like "pre-paid legal" or legal shield where you pay and inexpensive monthly fee and get hours and hours of free consultation a month, I don't know if they would decline representing you since you are in another country.

[numisport]

I am unclear as to what the real problem is here. I have shipped probably 100 or so registered packages that had all seams sealed with paper tape, seams and tape lines marked with registered seal and duplicate registered ticket clearly showing declared value. Have never had any problems. Every person that handles that package must sign for it. Registered mail is locked up when not being handled. Once that package leaves NGC it's no longer their responsibility. That's why you pay return shipping based on insured value. Responsibility in claim is USPS. Please correct me - I'm all ears.

[bstrauss3]

If you knew your client was in AUSTRALIA why would you send a valuable return consignment of $20k's worth of graded coins back to them by USPS DOMESTIC UNTRACKABLE PARCEL POST?

 

Sorry, are you missing something here?

 

We are.

 

Yup. The assumption that the shipping department knows ANYTHING about what they are shipping.

 

They receive a standard NGC box with the paper work folded up in it. Open the box, scan the bar code, computer prints a label. The shipping clerk - probably making slightly better than minimum wage - folds the paperwork back up and tucks it into the box. Seals the box with paper tape, affixes the return label and dumps it into the outbound totes for USPS. Separate totes for registered mail and regular mail.

 

Next package.

[dral]

I don't understand why NGC did not or does not ship such valuable items by a method that allows close tracking and require that the shipment be insured. I do understand that the items went missing while in the hands of USPS, but it seems to me that greater care should have been taken by NGC to try to make the chosen USPS route be as safe as possible for shippers of items of the ilk in this discussion. Increased cost of doing business? Sure, but one loss such as the Australian's experienced would cover a heck-of-a-lot of added shipping cost.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I wouldn't want to have anything shipped out of the country without all the potential ducks lined up in a row in case anything goes awry. I hear DHL is very efficient, international registered is pretty secure. USPS worldwide express fully insured would be another way to go. Recently a guy near Fukushima, Japan wanted me to ship an $800 plus item to him for under $20, I told him if I was going to do it right I would need a lot more, no sale.