The NGC Forum Today

[physics-fan3.14]

It seems like the NGC forum of today has become a toxic place. Anytime someone posts an opinion, there is an argument that devolves into namecalling and vicious attacks. A person can't even post a question about toned steel cents without it breaking down into mudslinging. Heaven forbid anything actually controversial gets posted!

 

There used to be a lot of great content posted here - genuine learning, and knowledgeable contributors. We still have a few great contributors, but the membership here seems to have dwindled. I don't know why.

 

There are more posts from spambots, hackers, and trolls than meaningful discussions these days.

 

My enjoyment of this place has been declining rapidly, and that makes me sad. This used to be the best corner on the internet: the Sleepy Hollow of coins, where we would greet you friendly, and engage in great numismatic conversation. What happened to those days?

 

What can we do to get back there?

[wheat'swheats]

Now you see why I have just about quit posting , and it is usually the same ones over and over.

[cpm9ball]

Sadly, Jason, there is little that can be done to control who comes and goes. We've lost some great people like Rey and Lou in passing, and others like Hoot who chose to pursue a new career and give up his collection in order to fund that career. Then, there are guys like Victor who is just plain crazy, anyway, and is now happily married and collecting license plates in the Nevada desert.

 

On a personal note, my participation has changed, much to my dismay, because of unplanned early retirement. It's no fun continuing with collections you can't afford to maintain or improve upon. You can't afford to attend the shows even if it is just to hook up with old friends, and you can't even find room to set up your photo equipment. The drastic shortfall in income forces me to sell off some of the sets that brought me much joy and fun. (Now, I know what Hoot must have gone through.) What's the point?

 

It seems that a changing of the guard is inevitable. If everything remained the same, the Redskins would still be winning without Joe Gibbs, but we know that ain't ever gonna happen anywhere, any way or any time. Be thankful for your health, the friends that you have and the new friends you can make as time changes all.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[World Colonial]

Slightly different observation but I have noticed the actvity has decreased here a lot since I first joined. I suspect that some of it probably has to do with the state of the market. I have posted on the South African coin forum BidOrBuy for about six years. It was always less active than here but now it is practically a morgue since prices have plummeted in the last four years.

[RWB]

Demographic and interest shifts combine with temporary subculture changes to create uncomfortable changes. Sometimes people use the anonymity of the internet to cleanse (or feed) their emotional needs. Much of this seems silly to outsiders, but for the individuals it is a way of expressing things when there is no one to listen in person.

 

Text comments also lack approximately 80% of the content required for effective communication between humans. We all presume a lot of meaning in written comments that is as much our own as it is the writer's. Confusion and misunderstanding are easy.

 

(The toned steel cent comments are certainly indicative of problems deeper than superficial opinions.)

 

A personal observation: In the decade I have been posting messages here and at PCGS, I've noticed a decline in the number of posters, and a reduction in the apparent quality of new-poster information requests. Further, new posters seem to begin with a base of misinformation that is deeper and broader than in the past. Thought of another way, there seems to be more novice confusion. The 'good ole days' were mostly one sided; now it is multi-sided with no clear source of authority -- information is dumped on the web and it's "user beware."

 

 

[KMAG100]

Text comments also lack approximately 80% of the content required for effective communication between humans. We all presume a lot of meaning in written comments that is as much our own as it is the writer's. Confusion and misunderstanding

 

+1 (thumbs u

 

..... I think at times from a writers interest of briefness this can go as high as 90%.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A greater emphasis on coin investing and a lessened interest in coin collecting, over the years.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I would hope that people posting would keep the hobby in mind at all times and consider how their comments help or hinder numismatics and the helpfulness that should be the backbone of forums. Personally I have seen more snarky comments on various forums than I would care to relate, especially the Ebay forums. There is the notify button for problem comments that hopefully come to the attention of the moderators. I would like to see a three strikes or so rule with those making offensive posts, as some other forums have adopted.

[Afterword]

I think how the information is provided when a novice asks questions should be given more consideration. A lot of times, the information provided here is conveyed in such a manner as to come across as more of an absolute than guidance. People in general do not like to be told what to do. They want information so they can decide for themselves.

 

They also do not like unsolicited information presented to them in the form of an interrogation. "Why would you want to submit a coin for grading that's a common date and only worth melt?" You might as well add, "What are you, an insufficiently_thoughtful_person?", because that is what they are going to take away from it anyway.

 

I also think a novice coming to this forum looking to learn about coins and coin collecting will read a lot of posts before they ever post themselves. They may also read articles/books on the subject. To question their actions on a public forum with the presumption of total ignorance on their part might be a little shortsighted, and may come across as a little condescending.

 

[cpm9ball]

I think how the information is provided when a novice asks questions should be given more consideration. A lot of times, the information provided here is conveyed in such a manner as to come across as more of an absolute than guidance. People in general do not like to be told what to do. They want information so they can decide for themselves.

 

They also do not like unsolicited information presented to them in the form of an interrogation. "Why would you want to submit a coin for grading that's a common date and only worth melt?" You might as well add, "What are you, an insufficiently_thoughtful_person?", because that is what they are going to take away from it anyway.

 

I also think a novice coming to this forum looking to learn about coins and coin collecting will read a lot of posts before they ever post themselves. They may also read articles/books on the subject. To question their actions on a public forum with the presumption of total ignorance on their part might be a little shortsighted, and may come across as a little condescending.

 

The person responding with a question has probably read similar posts in the past countless times. To try to get to the heart of the matter, it is easier to ask direct questions. It's unfortunate that some people might find these questions offensive, but are the others to blame? Would a doctor be considered insensitive for asking personal questions to assist in a diagnosis? What about a police officer asking a driver if they have been drinking or taking drugs when they got pulled over for driving erratically?

 

The new person coming here seeking information should try to provide as much background information as possible. No one is a mind-reader. We can't assume anything. No one is suggesting ignorance. If a newcomer feels this way, maybe they should take a step back, examine what has taken place, ask why he/she got the results that occurred and what could have been done to avoid the outcome in the first place. How can one expect to get the best results while "wearing a thin skin"?

 

Chris

[Afterword]

"....maybe they should take a step back, examine what has taken place, ask why he/she got the results that occurred and what could have been done to avoid the outcome in the first place."

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you and others should follow that same advice, which is what I was suggesting in my post. Perhaps you should also be more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way.

 

Some doctors are more thoughtful than others. The same is true for police officers. Instructors, as well.

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Perhaps you should also be more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way.

 

Right! Maybe we should not say anything at all to avoid offending the OP, and he should assume by our silence that we are concerned that he may have a thin skin so he should clarify his question.

 

That makes sense!

 

Chris

[Afterword]

Perhaps you should also be more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way.

 

Right! Maybe we should not say anything at all to avoid offending the OP, and he should assume by our silence that we are concerned that he may have a thin skin so he should clarify his question.

 

That makes sense!

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

I still think being more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way is more appropriate, but to each his own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Perhaps you should also be more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way.

Right! Maybe we should not say anything at all to avoid offending the OP, and he should assume by our silence that we are concerned that he may have a thin skin so he should clarify his question.

That makes sense!

Chris

 

I still think being more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way is more appropriate, but to each his own.

 

What exactly is the best way? Did the OP tell you before he told the rest of the readers? If so, why didn't you warn the other readers that the OP was easily offended? How is ANYONE supposed to know the best way without asking? Isn't it a process of elimination, if the OP doesn't tell us?

 

Your method is no better than any other.

 

Chris

 

 

[Afterword]

Perhaps you should also be more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way.

Right! Maybe we should not say anything at all to avoid offending the OP, and he should assume by our silence that we are concerned that he may have a thin skin so he should clarify his question.

That makes sense!

Chris

 

I still think being more concerned about the best way to do something rather than the easy way is more appropriate, but to each his own.

 

What exactly is the best way? Did the OP tell you before he told the rest of the readers? If so, why didn't you warn the other readers that the OP was easily offended? How is ANYONE supposed to know the best way without asking? Isn't it a process of elimination, if the OP doesn't tell us?

 

Your method is no better than any other.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is not the easy way: It requires some consideration; The ability to place oneself in another’s shoes; The desire to look at your approach to something with a critical eye; The capacity to admit to yourself that you might be wrong; A true, not superficial, motive for wanting to instruct.

 

But, like I said - to each his own.

 

Have you ever noticed how many people enter the forum but never make a post? It makes me wonder if it is because of what they read there.

 

Who knows, maybe your way is the best way.

 

 

 

[joeyuk]

I used to enjoy place. Now many including my posts often go ignored or given purposely useless responses,Very clickish and not welcoming to those outside the circle of trust. I lurk and laugh at the seemingly very intelligent people acting like children. And that explains Registered: 09/12/03

Posts: 146

 

I have seen much more informative and better run forums elsewhere. Only drawback is as they are a world forum with most posters outside the U.S. encapsulation of coins is frowned upon.

 

 

If true to form this should be the last post in this thread.

[jackson64]

I rarely come to this site anymore--specifically because of this issue. I still collect pretty avidly but do not participate in the forums ( and have even removed most of my sets from the registry.)

 

How funny it is that I casually take a peak at the money marketplace to see what's being sold and for how much and there is a vitriolic thread.

I then look for a thread with a particular coin photo and come across this thread--which has already disintegrated into a back and forth argument...

 

Between the coin "pros" and their condescension, the practical worship of the hobby book writers, and insiders ( grader/auction house employees) and the simple snarkiness--I simply don't need this kind of nastiness in my life.

 

I'll continue to collect coins--but this forum has nothing to offer me. Surely one is more likely to receive a belittling remark here than any fun or informative discourse/information...................

[cpm9ball]

I used to enjoy place. Now many including my posts often go ignored or given purposely useless responses,Very clickish and not welcoming to those outside the circle of trust. I lurk and laugh at the seemingly very intelligent people acting like children. And that explains Registered: 09/12/03

Posts: 146

 

I have seen much more informative and better run forums elsewhere. Only drawback is as they are a world forum with most posters outside the U.S. encapsulation of coins is frowned upon.

 

 

If true to form this should be the last post in this thread.

 

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but when someone only posts about once a month over a period of almost 12 years, it isn't hard to miss their posts.

 

You seem very judgmental. Your lack of participation merely suggests that you prefer things your way. That's fine. I hope you find everything you want somewhere else.

 

Chris

[joeyuk]

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but when someone only posts about once a month over a period of almost 12 years, it isn't hard to miss their posts.

 

You seem very judgmental. Your lack of participation merely suggests that you prefer things your way. That's fine. I hope you find everything you want somewhere else.

 

Chris

 

There was a time where information was shared freely and newcomers were welcomed. Now it is what is.

 

I think you sound judgmental. I posed for a very long time ATS and back then most people would read both forums so it would be redundant to post it here as well. The fact they had a fast moving forum didn't hurt either. Where you pulled the idea I want things my way from is beyond me so please do not start making presumptions. If I do find things elsewhere be assured your hoping has nothing to do with it.

[cpm9ball]

..............so please do not start making presumptions........

 

.......Very clickish.......

 

.......not welcoming.....

 

.......circle of trust......

 

.......people acting like children......

 

.......better run forums elsewhere.......

 

This is the pot calling the kettle black!

 

 

 

.......encapsulation of coins is frowned upon.......

 

This makes you better than others?

 

 

 

If true to form this should be the last post in this thread.

 

Once a month? He hath spoken!

 

You know, Jason started this thread hoping for some meaningful contribution, and all you can do is tear it down with generalizations. Joe-yuk.......you're the man!

 

Chris

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Starts a post lamenting the toxic and antagonistic attitude of the boards.

 

Hopes for meaningful conversation.

 

Thread turns toxic and antagonistic.

 

I'm done here.

[joeyuk]

Originally Posted By: joeyuk

..............so please do not start making presumptions........

 

.......Very clickish.......

 

.......not welcoming.....

 

.......circle of trust......

 

.......people acting like children......

 

.......better run forums elsewhere.......

 

 

This is the pot calling the kettle black!

 

 

 

Originally Posted By: joeyuk

.......encapsulation of coins is frowned upon.......

 

 

This makes you better than others?

 

 

 

Originally Posted By: joeyuk

If true to form this should be the last post in this thread.

 

 

Once a month? He hath spoken!

 

You know, Jason started this thread hoping for some meaningful contribution, and all you can do is tear it down with generalizations. Joe-yuk.......you're the man!

 

Chris

 

The first comments you made referred to the back slapping atta boy attitude enjoyed by a handful here.

I said frowning on encapsulation as a downside on another forum so why would it make me better?

 

I replied to this thread to say what I liked about this forum in the past compared to where it is today. Some people would look at this as an effort to get it back there. I suppose as long as people want to spin comments to fit there interruption nothing will change.

 

I am finished with this thread as well and if you need further explanation PM me.

 

_________________________

[bsshog40]

Starts a post lamenting the toxic and antagonistic attitude of the boards.

 

Hopes for meaningful conversation.

 

Thread turns toxic and antagonistic.

 

I'm done here.

Man you are so right my friend. I haven't been on much for a couple reasons. I haven't seen many posts lately that were either in my realm of collecting or something I really couldn't help anyone with. I've also gotten a little involved with some hurology since my dad passed. Both hobbies will probably slow down now since I was recently laid off from work. I still check in once in a while but only look at threads that might be interesting but steer clear of the drama filled ones.

[bochiman]

Jason, I hear ya.

 

I used to lurk here for a year before joining, and then I read a lot and seldom posted (I am that way as I try to figure places out).

 

Then, I tried posting a bit, but there was a lot of "us vs them" when mentioning the PCGS forum and members there (that weren't banned as the banned members came here to complain and often got nasty).

 

Then, like you mentioned, someone can post pictures or questions and negative folks seem to feel compelled to chime in. When I see pictures or people's coins, my first inclination is to see if I have something positive to say. If so, I try to say it.

 

If the coin isn't my cup of tea (and I am not worried about someone buying a counterfeit), then I see if someone is actively soliciting ANY comments, including ones that aren't as positive. Even then, I usually try not to chime in in a non-positive way in those threads.

 

Add to that the folks that usually seem to make posts that are trying to be funny and seldom add any real meat to the conversation, and it just isn't worth it many times.

 

I'll still read a majority of the posts/threads, but it isn't worth posting most of the time for the reasons above, and that you stated.

 

The one plus for these boards, versus the PCGS boards for me at the moment is that the only-a-flipper folks haven't come crashing over here to post a frenzy (in fact finding mode) only to disappear when the USMint flip is over (after trying to corner markets and flip everyone else out and then brag about it).

 

 

Both boards, currently, have the types of people/posts who turn threads into arguments and attacks.

 

 

 

 

[bochiman]

Chris,

 

I feel for you on your unplanned early retirement. I honestly do. I did the same thing 2 years ago, but, thankfully, mine was my choice. It did, however, limit/freeze my hobby (and other) funds. I did it for family reasons (some good, some health related of other family members).

 

That aside, like I said, I feel for you and do understand (to a degree...not going to denigrate your position at all by saying I fully understand your thoughts and feelings about it).

 

However, you are coming into some of the conversation more than blunt. You are coming in sharply on folks, like Joeyuk, and seemingly just want to pick apart how others feel about something.

 

Does someone have to be an avid poster, rather than a lurker/reader, for you to take them seriously?

 

To me, a collector who posts is a fellow collector, who posts. I don't care if it is 1 post every year, 2 years, 3 years, etc. If they want to share/learn/give an opinion, I am ok with it.

 

Heck...there is a member at PCGS forums who has NEVER posted (but they have a registered account)....but they have PMed me (and several others I believe) to share thoughts on posts/coins/life. They don't want the drama that can come about when posting (I'm alluding to what Jason mentioned in his OP and later), so they just share things in PMs.

 

Is that person any lesser of a person because they haven't posted? I don't think so.....that person has shared thoughts/experiences/etc...just on a more 1-1 personal basis about numismatics.

 

All said and done, I hope your retirement improves. Best to you.

[cpm9ball]

Chris,

 

I feel for you on your unplanned early retirement. I honestly do. I did the same thing 2 years ago, but, thankfully, mine was my choice. It did, however, limit/freeze my hobby (and other) funds. I did it for family reasons (some good, some health related of other family members).

 

That aside, like I said, I feel for you and do understand (to a degree...not going to denigrate your position at all by saying I fully understand your thoughts and feelings about it).

 

However, you are coming into some of the conversation more than blunt. You are coming in sharply on folks, like Joeyuk, and seemingly just want to pick apart how others feel about something.

 

Does someone have to be an avid poster, rather than a lurker/reader, for you to take them seriously?

 

To me, a collector who posts is a fellow collector, who posts. I don't care if it is 1 post every year, 2 years, 3 years, etc. If they want to share/learn/give an opinion, I am ok with it.

 

Heck...there is a member at PCGS forums who has NEVER posted (but they have a registered account)....but they have PMed me (and several others I believe) to share thoughts on posts/coins/life. They don't want the drama that can come about when posting (I'm alluding to what Jason mentioned in his OP and later), so they just share things in PMs.

 

Is that person any lesser of a person because they haven't posted? I don't think so.....that person has shared thoughts/experiences/etc...just on a more 1-1 personal basis about numismatics.

 

All said and done, I hope your retirement improves. Best to you.

 

Thanks for your comments. Your post makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I didn't get that vibe from some of the others. They were negative without any, IMO, positive input. Why should someone complain when they haven't made any attempt to make the place better. By that, I mean that they have not offered suggestions to make it better.

 

A couple of people have complained about some of us cracking jokes and not offering anything positive in some threads. Ten years ago, there were a lot of other members who enjoyed a good laugh. Now, it seems that no one cares for it. Look at it this way, if I can't have a little fun in my life, I might as well give up now.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[BKW]

The forum is just like collecting itself. You have to sort through a lot of "low end" junk before you find that high end post. But they are out there - informative, educational, fun and friendly posts. Ignore the dreck and focus on those "A" & "B" posts I enjoy this forum and hope the good posters (you know who you are) keep posting.

[bochiman]

A couple of people have complained about some of us cracking jokes and not offering anything positive in some threads. Ten years ago, there were a lot of other members who enjoyed a good laugh. Now, it seems that no one cares for it. Look at it this way, if I can't have a little fun in my life, I might as well give up now.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

I, certainly, didn't mean to compare "Cracking jokes" with the constant lack of making serious threads. I am more talking about a very small number of folks that consistently offer very little but post a lot...and most of it is, imho, garbage and helps no one. Bad enough when it is a thread they generate like that, but that is easy to skip.

It's when someone asks a very earnest and honest question and they get some answer that has zero to do with anything and the person, obviously, could have answered given the knowledge they have.

 

It's one thing to not have the knowledge, another to have it and just screw with the person.

 

Doesn't happen much, thankfully, but when it does, I just shake my head

[Walkerfan]

The forum is just like collecting itself. You have to sort through a lot of "low end" junk before you find that high end post. But they are out there - informative, educational, fun and friendly posts. Ignore the dreck and focus on those "A" & "B" posts I enjoy this forum and hope the good posters (you know who you are) keep posting.

 

(thumbs u

 

This NGC forum is where I 'cut my teeth', as a chat board member. I have gotten tremendous enjoyment and gained valuable experience from being here. I feel a certain allegiance or loyalty to it and I will continue to be active here and support it, while continuing to help others and also benefiting, myself. I still enjoy it a lot!!!

 

My advice: Be that change that you desire and be part of the solution NOT the problem.

[WoodenJefferson]

I don't agree nor do I disagree with what has transpired over time, I just know it is definitely a different place than when I first arrived. God, bad or indifferent, it is hard to pin point our changing times. The chat boards have evolved much as the posters have, that's all I know.

 

As I age, the crankier I get at times, then for days I just want to be at peace. I will not change my posting habits over this perceived threat, I just want to be a round peg around round holes.