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CONFIRMED 1919-P Mercury DDO Discovery!!!
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Started by StrikeOutXXX,

156 posts in this topic

StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

Posted
Posted (edited)

2/12/15 - UPDATE:

Folks - check your 1919-P Mercs, just got official word - After hiding in plain sight for 96 years...

 

Confirmed 1919-P DDO

 

Still waiting on official FS/CONECA numbering, but will likely be in the next CPG among other places.

 

I'm sure there will be official photos (especially when the XF/AU specimen is photographed) and announcements in the coming weeks (My coin will be off for a Coin World glamor shot soon).

 

Talk about an exciting few days, thanks for sharing the ride with me.

 

Jeff

=======================

 

 

I've been going through a box of oddities ATS.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=936873

 

A few have me stumped, but this one in particular. Figured I'd ask over here if anyone has seen something like this before:

 

1919Obv_zpshcxs9nsv.jpg

1919Rev_zpsgbjpsle4.jpg

1919IGWT1_zpsxn0irnpk.jpg

1919IGWT2_zpsuzayjx80.jpg

1919IGWT3_zpsje5vbagy.jpg

 

Edited by StrikeOutXXX
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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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Here are a few bigger pictures.

 

As for weight - on a .01g scale, 10 weighs I get:

 

2.40 g every time

1.54 dwt every time

37.0 or 37.1 gn (5 of each)

 

Seems about right weight-wise for a ~Fine Merc

 

1919ObvBig_zpstoxs5bee.jpg

 

1919RevBig_zpsydmjxyah.jpg

 

1919IGWT_zpskdabscp4.jpg

 

Like I said ATS, I've seen some radical strike doubling of dates in Mercs, and seen some pretty radical strike doubling with separation, but usually over whole sides of a coin. This one is just a bit strange.

 

Thanks for the opinions so far.

Edited by StrikeOutXXX
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Kurtdog

Kurtdog

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There are no double dies reported for the 1919 in CONECA or in the Merc book I have. If genuine, that is definitely not strike doubling, it would be hub doubling.

"Doubled" dies. A lot of people make that mistake.

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Coindude

Coindude

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That's a very decent discovery coin. I agree with Jason that this is definitely hub doubling. What are the lines that are vertical behind the ear and going up through the wing? I hope it's not damage.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

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There are no double dies reported for the 1919 in CONECA or in the Merc book I have. If genuine, that is definitely not strike doubling, it would be hub doubling.

"Doubled" dies. A lot of people make that mistake.

 

People who make a big deal out of this aggravate me. Really, what's the difference?

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RWB

RWB

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"Double" means "two" as in "double mint gum twins."

 

"Doubled" means "duplicated."

 

It can also mean that Cleveland has been moved to Akron because Cleveland was eaten by an M&M...at least according to a story I wrote for my kids bedtime years ago. (They haven't slept since....)

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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That's a very decent discovery coin. I agree with Jason that this is definitely hub doubling. What are the lines that are vertical behind the ear and going up through the wing? I hope it's not damage.

 

I guess you would call it damage for a coin that would grade about Fine - there is some as well on the reverse up by the "F" of "OF".

 

Trust me, it would be nice to have this be MS65+ assuming it is what so far folks are thinking, but I'll take a beat-up Fine without batting an eye as well.

 

So... It's obvious it's "Something" - here and ATS nobody has said it's "" and a few have suggested getting it off to CONECA for further study. I'll keep both posts going for a few more days, I'm sure there will be plenty more opinions.

 

But... Is there someone I should contact next to look at it online, send it to, etc? (My only CONECA experience was getting a Washington ready to send to Dr. Wiles).

 

Thanks for all the help thus far,

Jeff

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CaptHenway

CaptHenway

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Posted

Definitely a doubled die. The first impression was only partially formed and fades out equidistant from the rim, which is why only the top part of the N of IN shows, while more of the R and most of the U of TRUST show. The same phenomenon can be seen on the classic 1916/1916 nickel.

 

Great find!

 

TD

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rrantique

rrantique

Posted
Posted
Definitely a doubled die. The first impression was only partially formed and fades out equidistant from the rim, which is why only the top part of the N of IN shows, while more of the R and most of the U of TRUST show. The same phenomenon can be seen on the classic 1916/1916 nickel.

 

Great find!

 

TD

 

(thumbs u :banana:

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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Thanks for all the replies.

 

The folks ATS asked for a separate thread on just the Merc, which is now here:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=937347

 

The Capt has forwarded pics to Bill Fivas as well, for his opinion.

 

I'll add some more pics tonight - the Designer's initials have been asked for, and I'll put some bigger non-reduced overall shots of the coin if Photobucket doesn't reduce them too badly.

 

Also of note, can anybody make out what looks like a clash to the right of the "D" in "GOD"?

 

And lastly... seanq asked about hub varieties for that year. They had 3 different obverse hubs for 1916, 1917, and 1918, as annotated here: http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/mercury-dimes-ch-2-design-modifications/

Any merc specialist able to tell what this 1919 is using for Obverse Type?

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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OK, here are all the different pics asked for. My white balance is off, but other than cropping, I did no adjustments. Sorry they're huge, but that's what was asked for.

 

OBV

OBVHuge_zps48i6prtt.jpg

 

REV

RevHuge_zpsxtp4i1zt.jpg

 

Initials:

Initials1_zpsammikjxu.jpg

Initials2_zpsrkoasuov.jpg

 

Date:

date1_zpsjouzo0zg.jpg

Date2_zps4uhl5pw3.jpg

 

Date and Initials:

InitialsNDate_zps181syuay.jpg

 

The part of the head that might determine which hub 16/17/18 this is:

HubDetail_zpsslep4ibj.jpg

 

Shot of the Rim:

Rim1_zpswczob2kf.jpg

 

IGWT Shot upside down (not rotated)

IGWTUpsideDown_zpsoc1oj0xg.jpg

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DWLange

DWLange

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Any merc specialist able to tell what this 1919 is using for Obverse Type?

 

All Mercury Dimes of 1918 and later were coined with dies hubbed from the Obverse of 1918, and that would be true of this specimen. Of course, it's a little too worn for that to be evident, but there are no transitional dies after 1917.

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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c

Can we identify the class of the doubled die from those images? Anybody want to take a shot at that for us?

 

The only guess in the thread ATS is tilted Class IV.

 

Just an update - the coin should get to Bill Fivaz tomorrow for further study/photographs. The few experts who have PM'd me or spoken on the matter believe it looks good by pictures, but of course, nothing beats in-hand examination.

 

Hopefully within a few days we know something a bit more definite.

 

However it turns out, this has been very educational and exciting. I can tell you one thing - of the 35,740,000 Mercury Dimes to come out of Philadelphia in 1919, there is a huge percentage of what's remaining being dug out, looked at, and shown some love they probably haven't had in many years right about now 8-)

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.

 

TD

 

You don't know how much more excited I got when you told me your friend found one checking his inventory.

 

I really want to know what an MS example of this looks like - probably will amaze everyone how it hid in plain sight all these years.

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StrikeOutXXX

StrikeOutXXX

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Roger Burdette was kind enough to forward me the 1920 Annual Report showing die usage for 1919.

 

For Mercury Dimes:

 

Philadelphia:

521 Obverse dies were used averaging 71,050 pieces struck per die (37,017,050)

343 Reverse dies were used averaging 107,921 pieces struck per die (37,016,903)

 

Kind of funny as the reported production is 35,740,000 in publications today. (Although the report is Calendar Year 1919, so maybe there was overlap of 1918/1920 dated coins)

 

So... what does this prove? Well... nothing. Just throwing numbers out there. If only one obverse working die was doubled, and assuming it was used for an average lifespan, AVERAGES say there could have been around 71,000 pieces struck or roughly .002 of production. Curious how those numbers stack up against other Doubled Dies.

 

We don't know if the die in question had a full average life, if it was pulled from production early if the doubling was discovered while still in use, etc.

 

It will be interesting as more of these are discovered, and the die state markers start to be unveiled how the experts determine estimated usage based on that, maybe if there were more than one reverse die used and those die states as well, etc. I always found that part of numismatics quite interesting as well.

 

Just interesting information is all, take what you will from it.

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Kurtdog

Kurtdog

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Can we identify the class of the doubled die from those images? Anybody want to take a shot at that for us?

The only guess in the thread ATS is tilted Class IV. [...]

There may be a IV on Heritage right now. It's not as dramatic in the motto as in your IV but unless one is blind in one eye and doesn't happen to see too well out of the other eye one might make out the shift in the initial and the date as well on this one.

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Coindude

Coindude

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A second specimen, in higher grade, has been reliably reported by someone I know personally. It is on its way to Bill Fivaz for confirmation.

TD

I would hope that the OP still received recognition for the discovery and this being a confirmation.
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