Misconceptions about Peace Dollar toning

[RWB]

Misconceptions about Peace Dollar toning.

 

A thread on another message board repeated several misconceptions about conditions of manufacture that might influence how Peace Dollars tone. Rather than repeat the errors here are a few facts gleaned from contemporary documents.

 

The alloy for Morgan and Peace dollars was the same. Silver was chemically refined until about 1895 and electrolytically thereafter.

Planchets were annealed using charcoal, coal, natural gas and commercial gas depending on the era….only natural gas and commercial gas were used after 1901.

Annealed planchets were given a short dip in weak nitric acid to remove any copper oxide scale.

Planchets were all whitened in the same manner and rinsed in clean (drinkable) water.

Counted coins were placed in canvas bags of 1,000 pieces. The bags were made at the mints (with Philadelphia supplying many extra) from canvas stock. (Burlap was never used.)

Bagged coins were stored in basement vaults. Before 1900 water damage was common and bags rotted. After new vaults were occupied, moisture intrusion was much less frequent.

 

As mentioned in prior posts, the presence of moisture is a key component of tarnish/toning of silver dollars. (High sulfur and chlorine levels can tarnish silver in a few days.)

 

[coinman_23885]

Thank you for posting this. As always your research and insights are helpful, and appreciated. NGC should consider making this a WYNTK post to preserve it for quick access in the future.

[MarkFeld]

Thanks Roger.

 

So it seems that the two things which differ most for Morgan and Peace dollars (and which could account for toning differences) were 1) the use of charcoal and coal in annealing of planchets for Morgan, but not Peace Dollars and 2) a greater liklihood of moisture intrusion into Morgan Dollar bags?

[RWB]

One could reasonably expect that sulfur in coal would permeate the entire mint, thereby fostering toning on silver. However, coal was not used after about 1885 and charcoal was phased out in 1901-1906 in Phil, SF and Denver, in favor of gas. By 1921 all the mints used commercial gas.

 

Anecdotal and ledger entries from 1898-1902 indicate that large quantities of silver dollars stored at Philadelphia were destroyed due to tarnish and discoloration found in coins from rotted bags.

 

Again, by 1921 vaults were much more secure and dryer than a quarter century before.

 

Does anyone have a guess about the distribution of toned Morgan and Peace dollars by date/mint? I have access to limited information on the distribution and location of silver dollars during the 1870s-1900s.

 

 

[Kurtdog]

The coal angle is an interesting one. To add to the clues you might investigate how those buildings were heated in the winter months. My grandfather rented a 3-flat to Capone in the early years of the Depression. My great-grandfather collected the rents and performed the maintenance on the building and the yard. One of his jobs was to bank the furnace in the winter months. There was a chute where the coal truck would unload into the basement. The heat circulating in the building, I'm saying, was coal-fired air. For what it's worth...

[e1cnr]

Thanks Roger.

 

So it seems that the two things which differ most for Morgan and Peace dollars (and which could account for toning differences) were 1) the use of charcoal and coal in annealing of planchets for Morgan, but not Peace Dollars and 2) a greater liklihood of moisture intrusion into Morgan Dollar bags?

 

 

and design - especially when considering elevation chromatics

[SkyMan]

One other thing, my understanding, and it appears to be correct from the one textile toned Peace dollar I owned, is that the burlap bags the Peace dollars were in were made from a finer weave of burlap than the Morgan dollar burlap bags. The "air holes" were smaller for Peace dollar bags.

[MarkFeld]

One other thing, my understanding, and it appears to be correct from the one textile toned Peace dollar I owned, is that the burlap bags the Peace dollars were in were made from a finer weave of burlap than the Morgan dollar burlap bags. The "air holes" were smaller for Peace dollar bags.

 

RWB's first post reads:

 

"Counted coins were placed in canvas bags of 1,000 pieces. The bags were made at the mints (with Philadelphia supplying many extra) from canvas stock. (Burlap was never used.)"

 

[orifdoc]

As an engineer (or at least a former one), I wonder how much the actual coin design affects the molecular structure and chemical reactivity at the surface. There are a number of factors beyond those you mention that might also be important. The relief of the Peace dollar is generally higher, even after the design was reworked. Die cracks and die life seem to be a bigger issue with the Peace than with the Morgan, making me wonder if surface stresses and metal flow were greater. Strain hardening (or work hardening) of both the dies and the struck planchets might have been greater.

 

The information about the annealing process and storage conditions is certainly interesting.

 

I've always found it a little strange that some issues tone more "nicely" than others. Barber quarters and early Washies can tone in attractive ways while the interposed Standing Liberty coins seldom do. Franklins tone with nice rainbow hues while toned late-date Walkers have an entirely different look.

[RWB]

General heating was provided by steam radiators. Heat sources were the coal-fired engine boilers until gas was adopted about 1900. Once electric breakdown rolls were available, the steam engines vanished....this was about 1908.

 

Boilers and steam engines were usually in separate sections isolated from the working areas and ventilated directly outside.

[RWB]

Design certainly affects metal flow and crystal formation. I have not investigated this aspect, and leave it to a competent scientific examination by others.

 

RE: Alloy. ALL Annual Assay and Special Assay tests show the dollars within nominal specifications. Any ingots or coin outside the tolerance were destroyed.

[SkyMan]

One other thing, my understanding, and it appears to be correct from the one textile toned Peace dollar I owned, is that the burlap bags the Peace dollars were in were made from a finer weave of burlap than the Morgan dollar burlap bags. The "air holes" were smaller for Peace dollar bags.

 

RWB's first post reads:

 

"Counted coins were placed in canvas bags of 1,000 pieces. The bags were made at the mints (with Philadelphia supplying many extra) from canvas stock. (Burlap was never used.)"

 

My bad, the weave of the CANVAS bags for Peace dollars appears to be tighter/finer.

[RWB]

The canvas weave likely varied between batches of cloth and how long the material was stretched during use.

 

The mints, subtreasury/FRBs, banks and customers wanted new bright shiny coins -- not corroded or tarnished pieces.

 

[Raisethis2]

This is a very cool subject to discuss if only because of the mystery element. All the coin involved have had 80 years or more to do their thing and clearly the Morgans have won the day. Once furnished to the public each issue had both very similar storage possibilities and very dis-similar storage possibilities.

 

This should have resulted in all kinds of toning scenarios. I personally think that the different designs are the primary culprit. Some things however, we'll never know with certainty.

[TonerGuy]

I think very few Peace $ toned within the canvas bags.

 

Ive only seen a handful of toned Peace $ displaying textile or bag crescent toning. Certainly there would be more if storage at the Mint or in bank vaults caused them to tone in a similar fashion as Morgan $.

 

Based on my experience most of the toning on Peace $ came from albums, third party holders (ie., 20th Century Coins framed sets), envelopes and other normal coin storage methods of the late 20th century. I have pulled many a toned Peace $ from these aftermarket holders. Hence the reason why there is an abundance of 1922, 1923 and 1924 coins with toning while there is very few 1926 and later dates.

 

I wish there were more examples of bag toned Peace $ but they just dont exist. Perhaps an older dealer that was present when some of the original Peace $ Mint bags were opened can chime in as to what his experience was with finding toned examples in those bags. I have heard dealers talk about finding wildly toned Morgans when bags were opened for the first time. Ive never heard a dealer utter those words in reference to Peace $.

 

I could be wrong and many Peace $ could have toned in the bags and have had the toning dipped off of them in the past 50 years. This could be likely if the toning wasnt attractive like Morgans but I havent heard even anecdotal stories about that.

 

This could also explain the relatively rarity of toned Peace $. Out of the millions of coins minted how many were actually stored in a fashion that would produce colorful toning ? Obviously if storage in the bags would have caused the toning - toned Peace $ would be as common as toned Morgans.

 

I dont think there will ever be a definitive answer to this question. I think RWB brings up several possibilities in his answer that could account for why Morgans are more commonly toned - the difference in moisture levels and the potential levels of sulfur in the air of the Mint. But still that doesnt solve the mystery.

 

[RWB]

[Long ago, I was present when one bag of 1922 dollars were opened. All were BU.]

[TonerGuy]

[Long ago, I was present when one bag of 1922 dollars were opened. All were BU.]

 

How many were toned ? Of those that were toned - what percentage were colorfully toned ?

 

If you can remember. Im sure that wasnt the first thought on your mind though.

[coinman_23885]

[Long ago, I was present when one bag of 1922 dollars were opened. All were BU.]

 

How many were toned ? Of those that were toned - what percentage were colorfully toned ?

 

If you can remember. Im sure that wasnt the first thought on your mind though.

 

BU = Brilliant Uncirculated, which basically means no toning.

[RWB]

"All were BU. "

[TonerGuy]

Ahh thanks I brain farted over the term BU...

[DWLange]

The design of a coin definitely affects the likelihood of a coin toning, as well as the manner in which it tones. Coins with more or less symmetrical designs, with the main devices well centered within the border, are more likely to tone in concentric bands of varying color. Those with irregular designs in which some elements project close to the borders are more likely to tone asymmetrically, with blotches of unattractive color in place of attractive bands.

 

I don't know how much the relative work hardening over the coin's face determines this pattern, but it's a likely scenario. And I agree that most Peace Dollar toning results from storage in albums. The only toning I've seen on these coins when removed from bags is the occasional crescent formed when one coin partially masked another during years of undisturbed storage. Such crescents were typically a yucky, golden brown or nearly black.

[Afterword]

The design of a coin definitely affects the likelihood of a coin toning, as well as the manner in which it tones. Coins with more or less symmetrical designs, with the main devices well centered within the border, are more likely to tone in concentric bands of varying color. Those with irregular designs in which some elements project close to the borders are more likely to tone asymmetrically, with blotches of unattractive color in place of attractive bands.

 

I don't know how much the relative work hardening over the coin's face determines this pattern, but it's a likely scenario. And I agree that most Peace Dollar toning results from storage in albums. The only toning I've seen on these coins when removed from bags is the occasional crescent formed when one coin partially masked another during years of undisturbed storage. Such crescents were typically a yucky, golden brown or nearly black.

 

 

How would you describe NGC's ability to accurately discern whether a coin is naturally toned or artificially toned? Are there tell-tale signs that a coin is artificially toned that you can share with collectors?

[19Lyds]

Judging from some of the responses and the fact that many folks love to snuggle up to the back end of some so called experts in the field, it looks like your attempt to set the record straight is falling on deaf ears Roger.

 

Emperical evidence ALWAYS gets tossed to the side of the road in favor of how folks would "like" to believe that some of these so called naturally toned Peace Dollars came into existence.

 

The same holds true for some "other" coins that earn the "Monster Toned" label.

 

Ya gotta love the market place!

[bsshog40]

It seems there are those that have their minds set on how these Should tone.

 

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

-- David Hall, PCGS Coin Facts, in his comments on the 1921 High Relief Peace dollar

[19Lyds]

It seems there are those that have their minds set on how these Should tone.

 

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

-- David Hall, PCGS Coin Facts, in his comments on the 1921 High Relief Peace dollar

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a toned coin market exists and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there are many out there who are more than willing to continue to experiment on coins in order to convince you that the market they are filling is legitimate.

 

 

[RWB]

I don't know when David Hall made his remarks. Please take into account the year in which some of the remarks were made. Much of the reality has only been discovered in the last decade or so and many details not published until the last 2 or 3 years.

 

All sorts of things might have happened to Peace dollars. A lot of the 1921 and 1922s that were shipped out, came back within months - still bagged. Some people hoarded bags of silver.

 

The only reasonably good anecdotal information comes from dispersal of the Treasury holdings, and the consensus was that most Peace dollars were BU from unopened bags.

 

A suggestion is that one start with the facts, then work within those limitations.

[Raisethis2]

C'mon Roger, that's no fun.

 

 

 

he he he he

[TonerGuy]

It seems there are those that have their minds set on how these Should tone.

 

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

-- David Hall, PCGS Coin Facts, in his comments on the 1921 High Relief Peace dollar

 

If Hall would have kept his comments restricted to 1921 Peace $ I might agree with him. I have only seen one rainbow toned 1921 Peace $ and that one is in my collection. It is VF, cleaned and retoned from an album. I have never seen a true MS rainbow 1921 Peace $. I would love to see an an example if anyone can find one.

 

As for the part of his comment about "any Peace dollar" he is completely incorrect. Over the years I have personally removed rainbow toned Peace dollars from all different types of holders. Years ago (12+) I didnt even pay a premium for these coins. Dealers sold them to me for sheet. I submitted them to NGC for grading and they all graded.

 

Matter of fact, 10 or so received * at NGC. Rainbow Peace $ do occur naturally. The fact that he never saw one doesnt mean they dont exist. Between the 1970s and the early 2000s when he made this statement it is entirely possible that many of the coins in the aftermarket holders toned up.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that there are AT Peace $ in NGC and PCGS holders. I believe the 314 coins are AT. The story behind the hoard is a bit of a stretch but there are numerous other toned Peace $ that have been graded by PCGS and were then crossed to NGC. So both services had their look and both found the coins to be MA at least.

[RWB]

[MarkFeld]

It seems there are those that have their minds set on how these Should tone.

 

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

-- David Hall, PCGS Coin Facts, in his comments on the 1921 High Relief Peace dollar

 

If Hall would have kept his comments restricted to 1921 Peace $ I might agree with him. I have only seen one rainbow toned 1921 Peace $ and that one is in my collection. It is VF, cleaned and retoned from an album. I have never seen a true MS rainbow 1921 Peace $. I would love to see an an example if anyone can find one.

 

As for the part of his comment about "any Peace dollar" he is completely incorrect. Over the years I have personally removed rainbow toned Peace dollars from all different types of holders. Years ago (12+) I didnt even pay a premium for these coins. Dealers sold them to me for sheet. I submitted them to NGC for grading and they all graded.

 

Matter of fact, 10 or so received * at NGC. Rainbow Peace $ do occur naturally. The fact that he never saw one doesnt mean they dont exist. Between the 1970s and the early 2000s when he made this statement it is entirely possible that many of the coins in the aftermarket holders toned up.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that there are AT Peace $ in NGC and PCGS holders. I believe the 314 coins are AT. The story behind the hoard is a bit of a stretch but there are numerous other toned Peace $ that have been graded by PCGS and were then crossed to NGC. So both services had their look and both found the coins to be MA at least.

 

Ironically, the best and most attractive - toned in very colorful hues - 1921 Peace Dollar I have seen was bought by David Hall's rare coin company, when I worked there in the mid-late 1980's. I believe that at the time, it was graded MS66 by PCGS and I think I saw it in a PCGS 67 holder, years later.