NGC or PCGS

[TonerGuy]

brg5658 - To a certain extent I think he's correct. And I think you're correct as well. I thought about this situation more last night and I still cant imagine that "collector coins" priced under $2000 and especially those under $1000 being crossed all that often. Perhaps for exceptional pieces...

 

I just cant see the coin's value being increased all that much by being in PCGS plastic as opposed to NGC. However, I think we all know it definitely happens on the higher end "investment" coins quite often.

 

What I have seen and have heard is that the collector level coins are routinely submitted for re-grade by dealers, if the next grade level up brings enough of an increase in price. It then becomes worth it for the dealer.

 

So I do think that collector coins valued less than $2000 purchased from large national dealers or "show dealers" and auctions have been maxed out as far as grade.

 

However, if you are buying coins from a dealer that doesnt submit coins regularly you might not have this issue. I have a local dealer that doesnt like to submit coins. He never submits for regrades and his inventory is static and he never goes to shows. I know for a fact that he hasnt sent his NGC coins to PCGS for cross. He has a lot of old NGC and PCGS slabs in his inventory. Some of the coins are undergraded. So I suppose you can find better deals and potential upgrades/crosses at "honey-hole" B&Ms.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

NoIf the difference were this great 15-20% on 3000 and less I would crack PCGS slabs and get the next higher grade from NGC and that won't happen very often. Would you rather have a Au 58 than a Au 55 from PCGS. Check the heritage auction results.

 

In the AU range, is it still a 2-3 bump from grades ? There is no AU-57 ?

 

I agree with you if there is such a large 'bump' in the grades in the AU range. But I think people are 'cracking' when they can go from a mid-60's MS grades and go up 1, especially from MS-65 to MS-66 where alot of common coins show big increases.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think all of this takes away the fun of collecting......I just buy the coin that looks nice and don't worry about profit and try and enjoy.

Ditto.....as long as the coin I buy isn't off by more than 1 grade, I don't worry about it. The damn collection will probably be sold when I'm dead, so who cares about the profits, right ?

[GoldFinger1969]

brg5658 - To a certain extent I think he's correct. And I think you're correct as well. I thought about this situation more last night and I still cant imagine that "collector coins" priced under $2000 and especially those under $1000 being crossed all that often. Perhaps for exceptional pieces...I just cant see the coin's value being increased all that much by being in PCGS plastic as opposed to NGC. However, I think we all know it definitely happens on the higher end "investment" coins quite often.

 

Do we have the capability of doing POLLS on this site ?

 

Would be interesting to ask some questions on this topic.

[O mint bug]

Look at the coins on the HA.com auctions. Money high end heavy handed collectors bid there as in fact a NGC coin just sold for $6.1MM. So much for the PCGS dominance theory. I doubt it would nave brought much if any premium in a different holder.

 

Not all Au 55s are equal as a result of eye appeal and that is why one in 55 will sell for more than another 55 (same coin and identical holders). I would think twice about collecting holders and not being very picky on the coin ie strike or color. Different 55s sell for different prices even though they are in the same holder in terms of grader or grade. I sure do like having a resource like Heritage as this provides the collector with the ultimate acid tests on most of the issues raised in the above posts. The information is very current unlike many of the books I have read in terms of prices. No cost and you can pick up a good coin at a fair price if you watch each auction.

 

Cash is no longer king unless it is the right type ie a quality coin. It is a depreciating asset. The Treasury does not know how to turn off the currency printing press. Our money supply is growing at a faster rate than the economy and that spells inflation. I keep enough cash for my daily needs and three months living expenses. Since Obama has been in office the dollar lost about 8% of its purchasing power and that is on more good reason to acquire quality rare coins as no more are being made, Look at the AU O mint appreciation since about 2004. I just wish I could have started then and I doubt the appreciation will abate as the baby boomers are now able to spend more on hobbies and Harleys and GTOs are loosing their appeal to this aging group, which is in the process of inheriting $10 triliion from the greatest generation (their parents). Six years ago gasoline was about $1.85 a gallon. Almost twice now and demand has not increased as the recession has slowed spending and industrial needs. I should have bought a $5,000 gasoline card in 2008. My fuel cost we be about 45-50% less .

 

Just my opinion

[O mint bug]

Thanks so far so good and I will stick to what is already a business plan as anytime you spend four or more figures on a single coin you are much better of learning what you can from every source and I have been very lucky to have found a couple of very knowledgeable wholesalers that earned a very god reputation over a long period. Only takes a week or two to destroy trust but years to earn it industry wide.

 

You don't say what you collect.

[Tradedollarnut]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Good luck. I already asked that question and was summarily ignored/dismissed.

 

And I asked for your qualifications to make all your pronouncements and also was ignored. So get used to it...

 

My qualification is objectivity:

 

I am not a primary business partner with a coin dealer/firm that deals almost exclusively in PCGS/CAC coins (as you are).

 

I have no financial vested interest in proselytizing about the supposed benefits of PCGS graded coins (as you do).

 

I collect coins likely more similar to those of a "beginner", which was the point of the advice in this thread (not the 6-figure+ coins you collect).

 

I own hundreds of NGC graded coins, the vast majority of which I am 100% certain have never been submitted to PCGS for cross-over consideration (which according to you means that I own no "significant" coins).

 

For the record, I never asked for your cherry-picked qualifications about rubbing elbows with dealers who insist on PCGS graded coins in their cases. I asked you a simple question -- define significant. And, as I suspected, your definition of significance was one based solely on the potential profit a dealer has to make on a high value coin. Which, again, is irrelevant to a collector's goal of attaining the best quality coins.

 

So basically, you have no clue from the dealer perspective of what goes on in the industry. Got it.

[O mint bug]

I suspect you do not collect proofs or unc coins.

[Tradedollarnut]

I collect coins -- I will buy them raw, NGC or PCGS. I buy $100 coins off of ebay and I buy $10M coins out of major auctions. I have seen and heard what goes on in the industry for 18 years since I invested in Legend. I have help build Legend over the decades from small to large, from mixed NGC/PCGS to primarily PCGS/CAC - and always with eyes open and sound reasons.

 

I have bought and sold and built great and small coins and collections. I have truly been there and done that. I give my advice freely and with no agenda. Ignore it if you wish but there is no way to accurately dismiss it as unqualified or biased. Insulting the advice giver simply shows how little and closed ones' mind is...

[O mint bug]

Nope Its the prices and quality of coins I am offered. I was a corporate banker for 30 years and I know well what a broker does. Just what do you think banks do with deposits? BANKS ARE MONEY BROKERS and all want a god business relationship. A reputable dealer that is a good businessman is smart enough to realize advising someone that a coin is a pass will increase his income statement over the long haul as reputation and repeat clients are what are their critical factors to be successful in the industry. There is an 80/20 rule in business that applies to any business providing an added value product. It simply means 80% of your profits come from 20% of your clients. Most dealers are short term thinkers but name one you may know and deal with that did not get a good reputation on a national basis being less than honest. It is chat rooms like this one that will drive them under as well as serious coin collectors talking to each other.

 

I want everyone I do business with to make a fair profit as they to have to do so to remain in business and want repeat business if they have any sense. It is the few that fit this bill that are a collectors friend. Start small and listen to what they say and what they offer you. If you don't know your coins most will know this and burn you. I collect only 12 different coins and get as familiar with each of them as I can. Trying to collect the universe without a focus is a recipe for disaster, especially if you do collect coins that cost in the four figures and and up.

[e1cnr]

O mint bug - starting a collection of coins that are basically $5K + is really more of an investment than a collection. I applaud you saying you are going to buy the coin and not the holder but ask how can you tell? What training have you taken learning to evaluate and grade 150 year old double eagles from New Orleans? Buying Winters book is a great start, but have you spent hours evaluating these at auction previews? Have you taking any grading courses from the ANA?

 

What do you have against being represented at an auction? Unless you have the ability and fly to FL or TX or CA or wherever the coin of your interest is, how can you truly evaluate what the coin looks like and what it is worth?

 

Because a coin is in a slab of any type tells me the coin is one of the following (but I do not know which, especially if I am trying to determine from a picture) - properly graded, undergraded, a problem coin that slipped past service, overgraded, a counterfeit ... basically not alot, except that if it is in NGC - PCGS - ANACS - ICG, it is probably authentic and likely has no problems.

 

You talk about 'investment', but you will have no idea until these are sold how you did - as buyers will probably be evaluating coin in person more than slab/stickers. You are likely a fish getting nibbled by the sharks in this market, and if you win an auction sight unseen, you probably paid too much on that day - although in 20 years you may end up okay.

 

If you stay with it long enough, you will find the coin business is not a 'fair' business, and many people will be more than willing to extract extra money from you.

[O mint bug]

Telling people how much you know and thinking you got it down is a big mistake. You should never quite learning until your pulse is gone. Stating all your purchases huge and exploits leads me to believe me that you are closing your mind to learning - huge mistake. I have been collecting much longer than you and still acknowledge I have lots to learn.Buying collections is on thing. Paying the right price is another for the right coin is another. I am moving into gold and spend 1-2 hours a day looking for material from good sources to read and rereading the ones I like. Going through auction archives is also an ongoing learning tool as the market moves often. I also am a big proponent of developing relationships with those reputable people that can help you.

 

Self proclaimed success does little for me. I started by assembling a set of mice Buffalos and knew little to nothing. The best break I got was meeting a dealer than would sell to me well below red book and tell me if a coin should be passed on.It did not huirt that we became fishing buddies. In the end I had a very nice set and many dealers at shows wanted to look at the album and buy it. Was not for sale. Making $7.00/hr it takes a long time to complete this type of collection. In the end I has a weak EF full horn 18/17 D and a very strong 37 D 3 legged I paid $50 for. The same dealer had a roll of 21s unc buffalos but told me not to put one in my collection as they were unc but bad strikes as most are. The price per coin was $50 and I appreciate honesty and he priced them at a level to reflect the value. I'll let you figure out when I started buy coins seriously as I paid $525 for the overdate. I am still learning, which makes me a student and I hope this never changes.

[Tradedollarnut]

With all due respect, I have been collecting since I was six, which is 46 years now.

 

Ok, outta here. Best wishes!

[O mint bug]

I do like in a state where I can look at the coin and have never bought one without looking at it and rolling it in circles in a well lit room. I will not buy a coin of the internet based on a picture and rarer O mints don't filter down to EBay unless there is a problem. I have already spoken to DW about representing me if I get past the second tier of the doubles. I do not mind paying the leading expert as this is money well spent. Gotta get there first. ie the a,54 or 56O O. I could have picked an easier coin to collect but I note were the bulk of the value is one the type ones and the ones are the most desirable. Your are absolutely correct this is an invest or business venture. Don't plan to sell as my kids will get them. I collected Texas Indian artifacts and the price jumps resulted in the finer pieces getting so expensive the rich guys came in and bought them up. One paleo dart point just cold to a trust fund collector for $100,000 and that is when I sell and move on. I was offer this point 12 years ago for less than 20% of the recent purchase price. Paying this kind of money for a rock that has been out of date for 11,000 years makes no sense to me but the market sets the price not me. I realized I had a small business and when it got over heated I sold out and have no remorse. I learned much about collecting and hoe dealers, which I seldom bought from will stick you. I went straight to the source that being the diggers and other collectors around the state. Point is much of what I learned applies to coin collecting. I Iike prehistory but cannot pay large amounts for rocks Indians made like coins knowledge and a focus on what you collect is everything I never did quite learning though.

[O mint bug]

Six more and we are tied

[O mint bug]

Read my response below and you will get it. You don't strike me as the brightest star I the sky

[Tradedollarnut]

Read my response below and you will get it. You don't strike me as the brightest star I the sky

 

Wow - you will fit right in here...

[Tradedollarnut]

Six more and we are tied

 

As a new collector I just decided to buy the coin not the holder.

 

[brg5658]

With all due respect, I have been collecting since I was six, which is 46 years now.

 

Ok, outta here. Best wishes!

 

My grandmother gave my parents a mint set (to be given to me) of my birth year before I was born. Does that mean I've been collecting since I was still in the womb?

 

We all wait with 'bated breath until your next entry into the ongoing NGC-bashing archives. We are so honored to have you begrudgingly bless us with your presence here on the NGC forums once every 10 days or so, and remind us how poor in spirit and misled we really are.

 

All hail TDN!

[Tradedollarnut]

If you think I am NGC bashing, you understand very little. But then again, that is self evident. And now you are on ignore. I have never met such an individual_without_enough_empathy

[Kurtdog]

If you think I am NGC bashing, you understand very little. But then again, that is self evident. And now you are on ignore. I have never met such an individual_without_enough_empathy

Can I go on your ignore list too? I got an idea, why don't you put us all on your ignore list? That way you got the whole place to yourself.

 

Really, don't you think you're being a little childish?

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Sure. This truly is the Island of Misfit Toys

[TonerGuy]

from mixed NGC/PCGS to primarily PCGS/CAC

 

Just curious... if you dont care for NGC's grading and have made it a policy that your dealership is primarily a PCGS house why do you come to these boards to post - especially if you dont particularly like how you are treated ?

 

Why not just limit your posting to ATS ?

[O mint bug]

No problem. I asked about NGC from the get go and you and the next poster have yet to add anything that many collectors wonder about. I don't collect 64 Ds and I understand more about what I collect than you may think. I do find your post a little humorous as people that make statements as you have are not here to learn only pass time and attempt to impress people. If you don't collect old southern gold then task it to some other post. Same goes to the guy Thunderdog as he has nothing of value to add, which is a sure sign of ignorance. he bases his self proclaimed expertise on his long history of collecting something other than what I do. I post to get responses form people who have travelled the path and it is not either of you. any of you have a set reg. to your name?

 

 

If it is silver or copper you need not reply as this topic was never placed on the board for you.

 

Good luck to the both of you. You will need it as all collectors do, especially those collecting coins not found in change or retail coin shops.

[Tradedollarnut]

from mixed NGC/PCGS to primarily PCGS/CAC

 

Just curious... if you dont care for NGC's grading and have made it a policy that your dealership is primarily a PCGS house why do you come to these boards to post - especially if you dont particularly like how you are treated ?

 

Why not just limit your posting to ATS ?

 

NGC's grading for the most part is fine - they grade to their own standard and most of the bell curve of that standard [with a few exceptions in the high end] overlaps most of the bell curve of PCGS's. What skews the AVAILABLE coins in NGC holders is the market dynamics of the crossover game. If ya all can't see that or choose to ignore it then that's fine - I don't need the insults from the yahoos in this place.

 

I have Registry Sets here and have posted here far longer than the majority of posters on this board. If a few of ya all choose to have a small guy attitude and a chip on your shoulder then you can just not get passed on valuable experience acquired over many years. So be it.

 

Besides, if you knew one of the real reasons that CAC was started, half of you would have a brain seizure and never recover. It just doesn't fit with your myopic view of the numismatic world.

 

As far as the prevailing view of some that this is a far more civil and upstanding board than ATS - bull .

[TonerGuy]

If ya all can't see that or choose to ignore it then that's fine - I don't need the insults from the yahoos in this place.

 

Well I dont think anyone likes being referred to as a "yahoo" though.

 

And I think there are many on this board that are just pure collectors who dont live in the rarefied air where that really makes a difference from an investment perspective.

 

I have Registry Sets here and have posted here far longer than the majority of posters on this board.

 

Not me...

 

If a few of ya all choose to have a small guy attitude and a chip on your shoulder then you can just not get passed on valuable experience acquired over many years. So be it.

 

I think there are a lot of small guys on this board. And quite honestly the value of the advice can only be judged by the those receiving it. You may think that is worth its weight in gold. Others may not. So you should not be upset if others dont value it the same as you. Im sure there are some that do.

 

Besides, if you knew one of the real reasons that CAC was started, half of you would have a brain seizure and never recover. It just doesn't fit with your myopic view of the numismatic world.

 

Some of us would like to keep it a hobby and not turn it into a business. I dont want to see sausage made either... it might just ruin it.

 

Well if makes you feel better I learned something from you yesterday...

 

Thank you.

[mumu]

I can see tradedollarnut going to Wal-Mart every week and making fun of the people at Wal-Mart but telling himself its OK because hes not there to shop, just to check out the conditions because he has some stock in the company. Guess what, youre still a guy at Wal-Mart no matter why youre there.

[$ilverHawk]

from mixed NGC/PCGS to primarily PCGS/CAC

 

Just curious... if you dont care for NGC's grading and have made it a policy that your dealership is primarily a PCGS house why do you come to these boards to post - especially if you dont particularly like how you are treated ?

 

Why not just limit your posting to ATS ?

 

NGC's grading for the most part is fine - they grade to their own standard and most of the bell curve of that standard [with a few exceptions in the high end] overlaps most of the bell curve of PCGS's. What skews the AVAILABLE coins in NGC holders is the market dynamics of the crossover game. If ya all can't see that or choose to ignore it then that's fine - I don't need the insults from the yahoos in this place.

 

I have Registry Sets here and have posted here far longer than the majority of posters on this board. If a few of ya all choose to have a small guy attitude and a chip on your shoulder then you can just not get passed on valuable experience acquired over many years. So be it.

 

Besides, if you knew one of the real reasons that CAC was started, half of you would have a brain seizure and never recover. It just doesn't fit with your myopic view of the numismatic world.

 

As far as the prevailing view of some that this is a far more civil and upstanding board than ATS - bull .

 

CAC was started as a marketing scheme. That being a method to create an idealized concept of a TPG grade. The concept of A, B, C levels within a specific grade was "created" by CAC. Yes, dealers for years have exploited differences within an assigned TPG grade. The general idea of low for the grade and high for the grade was well known. Informed collectors are aware that equally graded TPG coins differed in quality and the open market clearly reflected the differences. CAC has attempted to quantify the differences by assigning "beans" and become the reference point for collectors.

 

You refer to market dynamics, I refer to market scheme. CAC, is simply making their own market. You can buy the sticker or buy the coin. CAC/PCGS created the market dynamics. Just make sure you buy a CAC coin.

 

You are a coin investor masquerading as a collector. You seek to maximize profits which is good business. That is why you expound the CAC/PCGS connection, it is to your financial benefit. No worries, it's not numismatics, it's a business model and profits are the primary reason to be in business.

 

Just quit trying to sell the collector angle, it's very transparent.

 

As far as your other comments regarding this forum and NGC in general, I will be honored to be included on your ignored list.

 

Carl

[mumu]

I have now seen TDN defend a sticker on a slab that a coin is in to the death, while claiming that strike on a coin doesn't matter. I'm sorry but that is not coin collecting. Most expensive coin of all time or not.

[Kurtdog]

No problem. I asked about NGC from the get go and you and the next poster have yet to add anything that many collectors wonder about. I don't collect 64 Ds and I understand more about what I collect than you may think. I do find your post a little humorous as people that make statements as you have are not here to learn only pass time and attempt to impress people. If you don't collect old southern gold then task it to some other post. Same goes to the guy Thunderdog as he has nothing of value to add, which is a sure sign of ignorance. he bases his self proclaimed expertise on his long history of collecting something other than what I do. I post to get responses form people who have travelled the path and it is not either of you. any of you have a set reg. to your name?

 

If it is silver or copper you need not reply as this topic was never placed on the board for you.

 

Good luck to the both of you. You will need it as all collectors do, especially those collecting coins not found in change or retail coin shops.

Welcome to the boards O mint bug! Oh wait a minute, you've been here a whole two days already. Never mind.