Another sticker startup -- PQ

[BillJones]

So now there are slabs with CAC and PQ stickers. Pretty soon the whole slab label will be covered up with stickers so that you won't be able to read the grade.

 

If we reach the point were every viable coin will have to have two or more endorsements, this hobby will be hobbled to a considerable degree. I already resent the fact that coins seem to need to be double certified. Triple or quadruple certified will be a total turn-off.

 

[delta]

Don't be ridiculous! After all, with the rapidly developing technology of 3-D printers, it'll be a cinch to mass produce absolutely perfect counterfeits and forgeries of not only the CSS verification stickers, but all the other underlying generations of labels, stickers, slabs and coins, and then superimpose extra strong jackhammer-proof acrylic lamination to seal them in, along with everything else of dubious authenticity, almost completely obscuring the centrally encapsulated metal disk, whatever it was. What's really needed is a reliable crack out service.

 

 

I'm considering opening up a new service called CSS or Certified Sticker Service that verifies all the stickers stuck on slabs, so you know the stickers that are stuck there are indeed authentic. Soon there will be a start-up company just to verify CSS stickers...and the game goes on.

[TonerGuy]

Is there any "hard" data on sale prices of CAC coins vs. + coins (and now PQ coins) ?

 

Maybe a database that can be searched ?

 

Ive seen examples of price differences/increases in ads in different magazines but has any of these services actually quantified the value of a + grade or sticker ?

 

I know price guides have + prices now but is that generally well accepted by dealers ? Or is the + grade more of a we will price it how we want to situation ?

[Kurtdog]

Numismatic News just announced a new competitor to CAC, to be called Premium Quality Approved, being established by Barry Stuppler and Donald Ketterling in California:

 

LINK

 

Stickering slabs is an act not without controversy, it's already being done by several auction houses and coin retailers in addition to CAC, with the potential for plastic coin slabs being covered with so many different external labels as to obscure the contents, including the underlying labels, which are already the focus of serious study.

 

There is also the question of sticker integrity, among which is the worry about stickers being removed and then attached elsewhere. One of the posters here in our NGC forum has already confessed to doing that himself with one from CAC, when he had one of his coins reholdered, and said it was no problem to do.

 

I once suggested to Mark Feld that he add a small private sticker to all the holdered coins he sold, to be a meaningful piece of the provenance, but he demurred.

I'm going to make a prediction. These guys start making a serious dent in the CAC monopoly, eBay is going to run them out on a rail. You know, to "protect" consumers. Just like it did DGS.

[bsshog40]

IMO, I've mentioned this before. I think the sticker business is all about the money. Most, not all, I feel only rely on the stickers for resale. When you have to send a coin in to a reputable TPG to be graded, then send to another service to verify the grade (CAC), and then another for the quality (PQ), I don't think it's mostly for personal satisfaction of the coin you purchased. It's basically exploitation of the coin to get more money for it. Will it ever stop? Probably not, there are too many people out there that thrive a greed. Jmo!!!!!!

[MarkFeld]

Numismatic News just announced a new competitor to CAC, to be called Premium Quality Approved, being established by Barry Stuppler and Donald Ketterling in California:

 

LINK

 

Stickering slabs is an act not without controversy, it's already being done by several auction houses and coin retailers in addition to CAC, with the potential for plastic coin slabs being covered with so many different external labels as to obscure the contents, including the underlying labels, which are already the focus of serious study.

 

There is also the question of sticker integrity, among which is the worry about stickers being removed and then attached elsewhere. One of the posters here in our NGC forum has already confessed to doing that himself with one from CAC, when he had one of his coins reholdered, and said it was no problem to do.

 

I once suggested to Mark Feld that he add a small private sticker to all the holdered coins he sold, to be a meaningful piece of the provenance, but he demurred.

I'm going to make a prediction. These guys start making a serious dent in the CAC monopoly, eBay is going to run them out on a rail. You know, to "protect" consumers. Just like it did DGS.

 

Unless they make a market in their coins, and back it up with strong cash bids (like CAC does in many cases), there will likely be no serious denting.

[coinman1794]

IMO, I've mentioned this before. I think the sticker business is all about the money. Most, not all, I feel only rely on the stickers for resale. When you have to send a coin in to a reputable TPG to be graded, then send to another service to verify the grade (CAC), and then another for the quality (PQ), I don't think it's mostly for personal satisfaction of the coin you purchased. It's basically exploitation of the coin to get more money for it. Will it ever stop? Probably not, there are too many people out there that thrive a greed. Jmo!!!!!!

 

A dealer who sends coins in to these various graders is providing a product that people want, firstly. Secondly, it has become hard to sell coins that have not been CACed, in some venues, and especially online. I would hesitate to call it greed.

[MarkFeld]

IMO, I've mentioned this before. I think the sticker business is all about the money. Most, not all, I feel only rely on the stickers for resale. When you have to send a coin in to a reputable TPG to be graded, then send to another service to verify the grade (CAC), and then another for the quality (PQ), I don't think it's mostly for personal satisfaction of the coin you purchased. It's basically exploitation of the coin to get more money for it. Will it ever stop? Probably not, there are too many people out there that thrive a greed. Jmo!!!!!!

 

You could say the same thing about getting the coins graded in the first place

 

I know a fair number of collectors who spend money on grading and/or CAC, whose primary reason is other than monetary.

 

For example, they know in advance that the fees wont necessarily be recaptured by the grade or CAC sticker. But, for various reasons, they still want the coins holdered and/or stickered and don't mind payng the fees.

[World Colonial]

I hope these stickers never end up on world coin slabs.

[johnny9434]

It's getting ridiculous IMHO.

+1

[jpcienkus]

I hope these stickers never end up on world coin slabs.

 

Did someone mention Wings?

 

http://wingscoins.com/

 

I take it from your comment that you haven't seen many world coins stickered by Wings. I've just recently started looking at world coins and have yet to see a sticker myself, but I don't have the experience that you do in this area.

[Kurtdog]

Numismatic News just announced a new competitor to CAC, to be called Premium Quality Approved, being established by Barry Stuppler and Donald Ketterling in California:

 

LINK

 

Stickering slabs is an act not without controversy, it's already being done by several auction houses and coin retailers in addition to CAC, with the potential for plastic coin slabs being covered with so many different external labels as to obscure the contents, including the underlying labels, which are already the focus of serious study.

 

There is also the question of sticker integrity, among which is the worry about stickers being removed and then attached elsewhere. One of the posters here in our NGC forum has already confessed to doing that himself with one from CAC, when he had one of his coins reholdered, and said it was no problem to do.

 

I once suggested to Mark Feld that he add a small private sticker to all the holdered coins he sold, to be a meaningful piece of the provenance, but he demurred.

I'm going to make a prediction. These guys start making a serious dent in the CAC monopoly, eBay is going to run them out on a rail. You know, to "protect" consumers. Just like it did DGS.

Unless they make a market in their coins, and back it up with strong cash bids (like CAC does in many cases), there will likely be no serious denting.

This is true, Mark. If we're going to accept stickers, endorsements, whatever, CAC is doing it right. And that's nothing to wink at.

[bsshog40]

IMO, I've mentioned this before. I think the sticker business is all about the money. Most, not all, I feel only rely on the stickers for resale. When you have to send a coin in to a reputable TPG to be graded, then send to another service to verify the grade (CAC), and then another for the quality (PQ), I don't think it's mostly for personal satisfaction of the coin you purchased. It's basically exploitation of the coin to get more money for it. Will it ever stop? Probably not, there are too many people out there that thrive a greed. Jmo!!!!!!

 

You could say the same thing about getting the coins graded in the first place

 

I know a fair number of collectors who spend money on grading and/or CAC, whose primary reason is other than monetary.

 

For example, they know in advance that the fees wont necessarily be recaptured by the grade or CAC sticker. But, for various reasons, they still want the coins holdered and/or stickered and don't mind payng the fees.

True Mark, there are a lot of registry people that get coins graded also. Stickers do not benefit registries. And I did state "Most, Not All".

[WoodenJefferson]

OK...here's the future.

 

There will be a hologram service where you send in your super slabbed coin and they will make you a 3D holographic image of the coin that will be able to be projected by your super duper smart cell phone. (think Star Wars chess game) This same company will also vault your coin in an impenetrable safe and you will still be able to sell the image and the ownership of the coin to another buyer via a finger print transfer.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Is there any "hard" data on sale prices of CAC coins vs. + coins (and now PQ coins) ? Maybe a database that can be searched ? Ive seen examples of price differences/increases in ads in different magazines but has any of these services actually quantified the value of a + grade or sticker ?I know price guides have + prices now but is that generally well accepted by dealers ? Or is the + grade more of a we will price it how we want to situation ?

 

I believe there is a recent study just out in one of the Coin Journals stating that CAC-stickered slabs sold at a definite premium.

 

In other news, gasoline stations that sold more Premium than Regular gas made more money than those stations which sold mostly regular unleaded.....

[GoldFinger1969]

I know a fair number of collectors who spend money on grading and/or CAC, whose primary reason is other than monetary.For example, they know in advance that the fees wont necessarily be recaptured by the grade or CAC sticker. But, for various reasons, they still want the coins holdered and/or stickered and don't mind payng the fees.

 

Is that across the board, Mark ? Does that apply to very expensive coins costing tens of thousands of dollars, like high-MS Saint Gaudens

 

Or at that level, is the coin and mint state so rare that the slab grade is enough ?

 

I don't think that PCGS MS69 UHR 1907 is going to need a CAC or PQ sticker !!

[Walkerfan]

Is there any "hard" data on sale prices of CAC coins vs. + coins (and now PQ coins) ? Maybe a database that can be searched ? Ive seen examples of price differences/increases in ads in different magazines but has any of these services actually quantified the value of a + grade or sticker ?I know price guides have + prices now but is that generally well accepted by dealers ? Or is the + grade more of a we will price it how we want to situation ?

 

I believe there is a recent study just out in one of the Coin Journals stating that CAC-stickered slabs sold at a definite premium.

 

In other news, gasoline stations that sold more Premium than Regular gas made more money than those stations which sold mostly regular unleaded.....

 

I feel like I'm in OZ with all of these stickers----people can't tell 'the good witch from the bad witch'....err, I mean slab grade.

 

The stickers MUST give the TPGS an inferiority/inadequacy complex.

 

I'm soooo glad that I don't usually have to rely on either one for my final decisions.

[Tradedollarnut]

I know a fair number of collectors who spend money on grading and/or CAC, whose primary reason is other than monetary.For example, they know in advance that the fees wont necessarily be recaptured by the grade or CAC sticker. But, for various reasons, they still want the coins holdered and/or stickered and don't mind payng the fees.

 

Is that across the board, Mark ? Does that apply to very expensive coins costing tens of thousands of dollars, like high-MS Saint Gaudens

 

Or at that level, is the coin and mint state so rare that the slab grade is enough ?

 

I don't think that PCGS MS69 UHR 1907 is going to need a CAC or PQ sticker !!

 

Actually, yes it does. I will not get one, but if it did have a CAC sticker the value would go up by at least $300k

[mtnstyne]

Good or not they messed up with the "PQ" name. I mean how are you going to search for them if it is one of your criteria? Every coin for sale online is "PQ" and rare...even circulated morgans.

[MarkFeld]

I know a fair number of collectors who spend money on grading and/or CAC, whose primary reason is other than monetary.For example, they know in advance that the fees wont necessarily be recaptured by the grade or CAC sticker. But, for various reasons, they still want the coins holdered and/or stickered and don't mind payng the fees.

 

Is that across the board, Mark ? Does that apply to very expensive coins costing tens of thousands of dollars, like high-MS Saint Gaudens

 

Or at that level, is the coin and mint state so rare that the slab grade is enough ?

 

I don't think that PCGS MS69 UHR 1907 is going to need a CAC or PQ sticker !!

 

Generally speaking, the higher the value of the coin, the greater the impact that NGC or PCGS grading and/or a CAC sticker can have.

[Conder101]

I feel like I'm in OZ with all of these stickers----people can't tell 'the good witch from the bad witch'....err, I mean slab grade.

I think you have the wrong book. Think Dr Seuss and "The Sneetches and other stories." Specifically "The Sneetches".

[World Colonial]

I hope these stickers never end up on world coin slabs.

 

Did someone mention Wings?

 

http://wingscoins.com/

 

I take it from your comment that you haven't seen many world coins stickered by Wings. I've just recently started looking at world coins and have yet to see a sticker myself, but I don't have the experience that you do in this area.

 

I have never heard of Wings, not until this thread. Given that the vast majority of non-US collectors could not care less about TPG today, I suspect that they will care even less about these stickers. It will only matter to those in the US if at all.

 

I did see NGC's announcement that they have added the "+" designation for world coins but I do not see that most non-US collectors will care about that either, not in the sense where they will pay what can only charitably be called astronomical premiums in many instances for trivial differences in actual quality.

 

I know that those here find this normal because they are used to it, but I find the whole practice completely ridiculous and absurd. It makes sense for US coins because of their current value, but then, the price differences between many grades and between CAC and non-CAC coins are also absurd given the actual differences in quality in many instances. There isn't a dime's worth of substantive difference between many of these coins.

 

Try explaining this whole concept to non-collectors and see if you can get their real opinions. Same goes for the majority of non-US collectors.

[MarkFeld]

I hope these stickers never end up on world coin slabs.

 

Did someone mention Wings?

 

http://wingscoins.com/

 

I take it from your comment that you haven't seen many world coins stickered by Wings. I've just recently started looking at world coins and have yet to see a sticker myself, but I don't have the experience that you do in this area.

 

I have never heard of Wings, not until this thread. Given that the vast majority of non-US collectors could not care less about TPG today, I suspect that they will care even less about these stickers. It will only matter to those in the US if at all.

 

I did see NGC's announcement that they have added the "+" designation for world coins but I do not see that most non-US collectors will care about that either, not in the sense where they will pay what can only charitably be called astronomical premiums in many instances for trivial differences in actual quality.

 

I know that those here find this normal because they are used to it, but I find the whole practice completely ridiculous and absurd. It makes sense for US coins because of their current value, but then, the price differences between many grades and between CAC and non-CAC coins are also absurd given the actual differences in quality in many instances. There isn't a dime's worth of substantive difference between many of these coins.

 

Try explaining this whole concept to non-collectors and see if you can get their real opinions. Same goes for the majority of non-US collectors.

 

You're obviously entitled to your opinions regarding differences (or not) in grades and/or values. But you don't bolster your point by saying things like "Try explaining this whole concept to non-collectors and see if you can get their real opinions. Same goes for the majority of non-US collectors". I can't imagine what difference it might make to elicit and receive opinions from non-collectors.

[BKW]

They don't "PQ Approve" any denominations below Half Dollars? I must be missing something, please enlighten me.

 

They definitely sticker quarters; you can look at the link in my original post.

[Crohnos01]

I find the whole discussion interesting for no other reason than we seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room. If (insert sticker name here) doesn't garner support from the market place in the form of people acknowledging their product (sticker) by submitting coins to them for grading, they won't be around very long and/or they will have little impact in the market. As one of our resident experts, Mr. Feld pointed out, CAC had a leg up on this because of the reputation of their founder. If Mark Salzburg started a 4th tier company, I dare say many on this board would eagerly submit coins to him for his company approval. This as opposed to the Everest graded coin which will suffer at least in my mind from Ricks affinity for becoming a coin show circus barker every weekend. Not trying to pick on Mr. Tomaska, I'm sure he's a knowledgeable and nice guy, just trying to illustrate the point...Character and reputation matter.

 

I suspect new companies trying to compete with CAC, unless carefully planned and backed by a market acknowleged reputable individual, will like water seek their own level... Which may indeed be underwater.

[Walkerfan]

I feel like I'm in OZ with all of these stickers----people can't tell 'the good witch from the bad witch'....err, I mean slab grade.

I think you have the wrong book. Think Dr Seuss and "The Sneetches and other stories." Specifically "The Sneetches".

 

Agreed----I have used this analogy before, as well. They both apply.

[zboyle04]

pretty useless in my opinion, if a seller makes a sticker and puts them on their own coins it defeats the purpose. you need to have a third party doing this to objectively review the coins, like CAC has done...

[PerryHall]

pretty useless in my opinion, if a seller makes a sticker and puts them on their own coins it defeats the purpose. you need to have a third party doing this to objectively review the coins, like CAC has done...

Isn't this what Rick Snow does with his Eagle Eye stickers? Can you honestly say that CAC hasn't stickered a coin owned by one of the CAC owners?

[MarkFeld]

pretty useless in my opinion, if a seller makes a sticker and puts them on their own coins it defeats the purpose. you need to have a third party doing this to objectively review the coins, like CAC has done...

Isn't this what Rick Snow does with his Eagle Eye stickers? Can you honestly say that CAC hasn't stickered a coin owned by one of the CAC owners?

 

Of course CAC has stickered coins owned by one of its owners. But it wasn't the owners who reviewed or stickered the coins, so your analogy is badly flawed.

[Mark T]

I'm considering opening up a new service called CSS or Certified Sticker Service that verifies all the stickers stuck on slabs, so you know the stickers that are stuck there are indeed authentic. Soon there will be a start-up company just to verify CSS stickers...and the game goes on.

 

I think it would be really funny to get one coin in a slab, and send it to all of the stickering services. I want ALL the stickers on one slab.

 

If thats the case you wont be able to see the coin !!