CBQ - Tooled

[jom]

Hello all...

 

First of all, Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all!

 

I'm posting here a coin I saw on the Heritage archives. I occasionally (something I should do a LOT more of) peruse the archives to find good photos of "problem" coins so I can see if I can find the issue. This helps my grading skills a bit and lets me see what the TPGs interpret as a problem coin. I show here a 1828 CBQ that was labled "Tooled - VF Details". I'm wonder where exactly this coin has been tooled. I see some nicks and cuts here and there. I also see a divot near the "5" on the reverse. Is that what "tooled" means? Or did someone try to cut into the device to make it more detailed. If so, it's a good job....uh...I think. Then again, I could be just clueless and this in an obviously "tooled" coin that I simply don't know enough to be able to find. Please point out the SPECIFIC areas you might see.

 

I am NOT wanting to make this a "complain about the TPG" post. I'm genuinely interested in finding out about "problem" coins as I only think this can help me.

 

Thoughts?...and THANKS for an info you can give!

 

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

I'm wondering if perhaps, the shiny areas on the reverse might be indicative of tooling there? Otherwise, I don't see any hints as to the possible problem.

[AnkurJ]

The nose and chin look odd, as if the details were rounded.

[jom]

The nose and chin look odd, as if the details were rounded.

 

I was wondering that myself actually. The mouth particularly...

 

Does anyone feel the "detail" of the coin is more than, say, what is possible with this level of wear? Another words the tooling was done to make it look a higher grade.

 

Anyway...thanks...and continue!

 

jom

[bsshog40]

You may have a point Mark. It looks to have had some worse scratches than others in some of those points and maybe smoothed out with a dremel or something, which looks to be more noticeable under the left wing.

[AnkurJ]

The details look accurate for VF. Can you get close ups of the nose/mouth/chin?

[$ilverHawk]

The nose and chin look odd, as if the details were rounded.

 

Agree. Nose, Cheek, Jaw line and Bust area appear to be smoothed. No nicks in the high areas on a VF coin--very suspicious. Most notably when you compare the contrasts of Obverse fields to the devices. The Reverse, in comparison, seems relatively unaltered comparing devices to fields. Devices relatively sharp, no clearly apparent field alteration.

 

Looks like a VF net graded coin that someone tried to improve to XF by smoothing Obverse issues. IMHO

 

I don't know this series, but if this is a high value coin in better grades, that could explain the alteration.

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

The nose and chin look odd, as if the details were rounded.

 

I agree with Ankur.

[Mozin]

The nose and chin look odd, as if the details were rounded.

 

Agree. Nose, Cheek, Jaw line and Bust area appear to be smoothed. No nicks in the high areas on a VF coin--very suspicious. Most notably when you compare the contrasts of Obverse fields to the devices. The Reverse, in comparison, seems relatively unaltered comparing devices to fields. Devices relatively sharp, no clearly apparent field alteration.

 

Looks like a VF net graded coin that someone tried to improve to XF by smoothing Obverse issues. IMHO

 

I don't know this series, but if this is a high value coin in better grades, that could explain the alteration.

 

Carl

 

This all I also see. Also, the reverse appears to be outlined above the eagle's wings. Sure wish we could find the fellow that ruined this coin.

[MarkFeld]

 

It doesn't make sense to me that the nose and chin would be improved or strengthened, in order to achieve a higher grade.

[JPS-WI]

I remember reading somewhere that the lines on the shield is an area to watch/inspect for tooling. Hard to tell from the photo but that may be the case with this coin.

 

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

John

[CSdot]

Here is a comparison:

[mtnstyne]

I don't see anything obvious on the blown up pictures. It's not my series at all.

 

Here is the link for the auction.

 

Heritage Archive

[BillJones]

It doesn't make sense to me that the nose and chin would be improved or strengthened, in order to achieve a higher grade.

 

That might be, but face looks odd to me. Usually Bust half dollars in this grade show some nose detail, and this one doesn't. I also think that the fields on the reverse have been rubbed given the shiny surfaces.

[physics-fan3.14]

It is really hard to say, without being able to turn the coin and view it under the light. The nose and chin do look a bit odd. Sometimes tooling is done in an attempt to restore the coin after some damage, and the repair work can sometimes be quite excellent (and very deceiving)

[$ilverHawk]

Hello all...

 

First of all, Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all!

 

I'm posting here a coin I saw on the Heritage archives. I occasionally (something I should do a LOT more of) peruse the archives to find good photos of "problem" coins so I can see if I can find the issue. This helps my grading skills a bit and lets me see what the TPGs interpret as a problem coin. I show here a 1828 CBQ that was labled "Tooled - VF Details". I'm wonder where exactly this coin has been tooled. I see some nicks and cuts here and there. I also see a divot near the "5" on the reverse. Is that what "tooled" means? Or did someone try to cut into the device to make it more detailed. If so, it's a good job....uh...I think. Then again, I could be just clueless and this in an obviously "tooled" coin that I simply don't know enough to be able to find. Please point out the SPECIFIC areas you might see.

 

I am NOT wanting to make this a "complain about the TPG" post. I'm genuinely interested in finding out about "problem" coins as I only think this can help me.

 

Thoughts?...and THANKS for an info you can give!

 

 

jom

 

Try this link to compare Obverse profile specifically the nose and lips areas. Nose has been reduced in size. Detail around nostrils and lips smoothed in a way not indicative of circulation wear.

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1192&lotNo=4602

 

Carl

[AnkurJ]

Here is a comparison:

 

[jom]

Try this link to compare Obverse profile specifically the nose and lips areas. Nose has been reduced in size. Detail around nostrils and lips smoothed in a way not indicative of circulation wear.

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1192&lotNo=4602

 

Carl

 

How interesting...I used that same coin has a comparison myself before I posted this. In fact, that was what lead me to look at the mouth/nose area...I wasn't sure though.

 

Thanks all...and I hope you all had a great Christmas.

 

If anyone has more to add go right ahead!

 

jom

[Kurtdog]

Here is a comparison:

I believe those are different dies.

[e1cnr]

I was looking at the reverse area near the talons and arrow quills. The quills look different than most bust half reverses, although the trueview looks like the same reverse die.

[Kurtdog]

Here, try this...

 

[Kurtdog]

Just killing a little time I found this PCGS VF35 on Heritage and I thought I'd put it up against the subject coin obverse as that's where some of you are seeing the "tooling." The Heritage coin is the one on the right. Both these coins look like they're from the same dies. Again, that toned one, above, looks to me to be clearly from different dies.

[e1cnr]

well my same reverse die is incorrect

 

the couple pictures above look like more detailing of hair curls

but shows more detail than the VF

 

so what would you grade it by the obverse ? XF?

[Kurtdog]

The one on the left, the subject coin obverse? Gosh, it looks better than that PCGS VF35 on the right, and EF is the next grade. The toned one, that's a nice one, but clearly different dies. The subject coin and the PCGS VF35 are from the same reverse dies, as well. I checked that out, I just didn't show them. Here's that link...

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1202&lotIdNo=3575#Photo

[coinman1794]

It is hard to tell form the images, but I would also say the face may have been tooled particularly the nose and eye.

[jom]

Based on the coin posted by SilverHawk which was graded XF40 I had thought that my subject coin might have been tooled in such a way to give it more detail within liberty. This influenced me due to the fact the problem coin was said to be VF and Silver's coin was XF40...which seemed to me to have a lot less detail yet "graded" higher.

 

jom

[scubafuel]

This is a B-1 quarter, and for some reason many of the 1828 quarters with this obverse die show "rounding" of the bust features, especially in mid grades. I always attributed it to die wear, but whatever it is it's not tooling.

I think the rounding effect often makes the grading services conservative with this date.

See this example:

 

Note the same lack of nose detail. Did not make xf...

 

Looking at these pics, I'd bet that the reverse fields have been messed with in some way, where they are discolored and shiny around the eagle. I think PCGS lumps smoothing into "tooled".