Can someone teach me what I'm not understanding...

[mumu]

I know some people believe you cant grade from photos so no need to remind me of that...But given these 2 images, what makes the 64 a higher grade than the 63? I keep runnng into these situations with coins that are mine and those that are not and Im just not getting it so I will concede. The first coin is a PCGS MS 64 the 2nd is an NGC MS 63. The 63 looks higher grade to me. I have read several grading books now. I have looked at hundreds of coins in hands in pictures. Just not getting it. I can post a 65 as well that I feel the same way about relative to the 63. Its not owenership bias because I can use eamples I dont own as well. Someone throw me a bone.

 

 

 

[mumu]

Here's a 65 lets throw another sample into the ring

 

 

[dimefreak]

63 Looks to have a bunch of small hairlines.... Also have to take luster into account. There is also the possibility that you just need to resend it in

[James_OldeTowne]

Usually, if two coins are graded the same, but one "looks" a lot better than the other, it probably has some subtle issues not immediately noticeable.

 

For example, and I'm not speaking to your coin specifically, hairlines that are not quite bad enough to warrant a "cleaning/no grade" disclaimer might bring about a 2 point deduction in grade. Or, slidemarks that are not blatantly obvious can cause a deduction in grade, and both of these particular kinds of problems can be difficult to capture in images.

[e1cnr]

luster and resulting eye appeal are very difficult to evaluate from pics-

 

especially comparing between 2 different sellers / pic set-ups

 

 

 

TPG grading is not all nicks and strength of strike

[Buffalo Head]

LUSTER rules the roost when grading. It's the one aspect that carries more weight than strike or anything else. Just remember that one thing and it'll carry you far when grading. I like a well struck piece with booming luster and few blemishes, but who doesn't. Bag marks in a focal point is not a good thing. Happy hunting my friend....CHD

[mumu]

 

TPG grading is not all nicks and strength of strike

 

OK so this is the beginning of an answer. Luster I understnad is a big part of it. I wont know the luster of the first coin until it is in hand though the picture is underexposed which hides luster. Now let's ignore my coin sinnce that adds bias(though based on the picture being accurate I would say this 63 looks higher grade than my toned 64, but thats a tough comparison since color is involved), lets compare the 64 and the 65 above. I dont own and wont own either one so no bias. To me the 64 looks higher grade than the 65. The 65 is riddled with activity and bag marks.

[MarkFeld]

LUSTER rules the roost when grading. It's the one aspect that carries more weight than strike or anything else. Just remember that one thing and it'll carry you far when grading. I like a well struck piece with booming luster and few blemishes, but who doesn't. Bag marks in a focal point is not a good thing. Happy hunting my friend....CHD

 

I disagree. Factors other than luster can account for grade differences, just as strongly and easily as luster can.

 

In this case, the answer is simple. Either the 64 coin is superior and the images don't show it. Or it isn't.

[mumu]

Here is what a 63 looks like in my mind's eye:

 

 

[Raisethis2]

 

 

If you look at the truncation on the very bottom of the neck on the first pic the lighting washes all the sharpness of the strike away. I'd guess that applies throughout the coin and it's much better in hand than it appears.

 

The second coin looks very high end if it's only a 63.

 

The third coin shows clearly the satiny luster necessary to get a high grade on peace dollars.

 

That said, I'll take them all.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Whats going on at the rim at 5 o clock on the 63?

[BillJones]

Whats going on at the rim at 5 o clock on the 63?

 

That is a tough question to answer. It does not look like post strike damage, more like a strike anomaly . Given the metal flow issues that plagued the 1921 piece dollars, that could be the answer. It also might be the reason why the coin did not get another grading point.

 

As for the PCGS MS-64, I think that piece is very low end for the grade. It has a couple of obvious marks in the prime fields of vision. As a dealer if I were running through a box of coins, it would not be a piece that I would pull out for a quote. I would also venture to say that it would not get a CAC approval.

 

[RWB]

1921 Peace dollars are not difficult to grade, provided you ignore the stuff the major authentication companies put on their plastic slabs.

 

First, plastic providers combine abrasion and luster into a guess that often is a poor description of the coin’s state of preservation. The difficulty arises because 1921 dollars have a wide range of detail, and also a wide range of normal luster.

 

The first thing a grader looks for is a break in the field luster surrounding the portrait. That is a sign of handling by people. If this exists, then examination of the high points of the struck coin will usually reveal slight abrasion typical of circulation.

 

If the coin shows no field luster break, then the high point abrasion is usually from contact with other coins. From there, the quantity and severity of nicks, bumps and scrapes will determine the numerical grade estimate.

 

However, 1921 Peace dollars, mostly those from the first day of production, are likely to have subdued luster or even satin-like fields. (See sample, below.)

This presents a conflict between broken luster and the coin’s original, and normal field. Since a new dollar die had a satin-like field, and Peace dollar dies were not mechanically polished, a perfect coin (proof or production strike) from a new die would have had virtually no luster, and could easily be mistaken for a circulated or over-dipped coin.

 

Second, relief variations get in the way. Relief is characteristic of striking conditions and mostly is ignored by the grading places, but collectors show a strong preference for well struck dollars. Thus, poorly struck coins even those free of most marks, bring less satisfaction to the owner.

 

The coin above is a good example. If a grader does not understand what a new die surface looks like, he/she will reasonably conclude that the coins has been circulated and dipped to “…within an inch of its life.” (As Grandmother said before she took a switch to my bottom for saying a bad word in church one Sunday. I thought I was being “Biblical.”) Further, differences between abrasion and die surface can be confusing for many.

 

I’ll leave the OP to ponder this and the other responses to his excellent question.

 

[e1cnr]

PCGS LUVS cartwheel luster (for business strikes)

if it don't got it, pretty much 63 max

 

your 63 pictured looks satiny (not much cartwheel)

 

 

just grab some of your slabbed coins - hold them at arms length, rotate them tp see what they got... if you don't have many yourself, at the next show look at someones table before reading the labels

 

 

what many people do not understand is that for some issues, there were few coins higher than 63 that left the press (before hitting the collection bin - and scores just go down from there...)

[MarkFeld]

PCGS LUVS cartwheel luster (for business strikes)

if it don't got it, pretty much 63 max

 

your 63 pictured looks satiny (not much cartwheel)..

 

what many people do not understand is that for some issues, there were few coins higher than 63 that left the press (before hitting the collection bin - and scores just go down from there...)

 

What issues/coins are you speakimg of? That ("what many people do not understand is that for some issues, there were few coins higher than 63") is certainly not the case with 1921 Peace Dollars. And I doubt it is for many, if any, other issues, either. Even if it were the case, however, how would you know it?

[Buffalo Head]

LUSTER rules the roost when grading. It's the one aspect that carries more weight than strike or anything else. Just remember that one thing and it'll carry you far when grading. I like a well struck piece with booming luster and few blemishes, but who doesn't. Bag marks in a focal point is not a good thing. Happy hunting my friend....CHD

 

I disagree. Factors other than luster can account for grade differences, just as strongly and easily as luster can.

 

In this case, the answer is simple. Either the 64 coin is superior and the images don't show it. Or it isn't.

 

All I'm saing is, luster plays a big part and carries more weight. Just my opinion of course. Mark was a grader and I'm not going to win. Carry on....

[mumu]

PCGS LUVS cartwheel luster (for business strikes)

if it don't got it, pretty much 63 max

 

your 63 pictured looks satiny (not much cartwheel)..

 

what many people do not understand is that for some issues, there were few coins higher than 63 that left the press (before hitting the collection bin - and scores just go down from there...)

 

What issues/coins are you speakimg of? That ("what many people do not understand is that for some issues, there were few coins higher than 63") is certainly not the case with 1921 Peace Dollars. And I doubt it is for many, if any, other issues, either. Even if it were the case, however, how would you know it?

 

I'm guessing "many" is sujective here. One could argue that statement is valid for coins such as the 34, 24 and 25 S mint Peace dollars. Maybe the 55D washington quarter? 1884S and 92S morgans fit the bill. Many being relaitve to total mint numbers.

[Coindude]

Well, I like mine better than the 63 that you posted in that new PCGS holder. Maybe it's time to send my 61 back in!

 

[mumu]

I like the color and love the die polishing lines on your 61, but the weakish strike and heavy contact marks all over the place I think would top it out at 62 IMO. I do think it should be in a 62 though. Really nice coin.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Here's another PCGS MS64

 

 

 

 

 

[orifdoc]

I love, love 1921 Peace Dollars. I think RWB's comments above are fantastic. Grading a huge coin like a Peace Dollar (and 1921s in particular) would seem easy enough, but there are plenty of ways to be deceived. I'm relatively new to the game, but I've tried to critically examine this series, the market, the TPGs, and the nuances of grading the series. I've picked up a thing or two, but I have miles left to go.

 

I've looked at thousands of graded Peace Dollars in the past couple of years and a few patterns are emerging - as least to my eye.

 

First, don't forget eye appeal. What you see in the first two seconds of looking at a coin is important. To me that sets the "baseline grade". For this series strike is not that important to the TPGs, but it is to me and many others. It becomes a bit more important at MS66 and above.

 

Luster is weighted heavily, but the luster on the 1921 is different than all other dollars in the series. As has been said, coins from new dies might have very little. The 1924 can also have peculiar luster.

 

Hits can obviously affect grade, but keep in mind, hits are the EASIEST problem to see in photos. Luster and frost breaks can affect grade too, but to a lesser extent. Many, many coins which truly have a slight bit of high-point rub or luster breaks get put in MS holders all the time if the rest of the coin is nice enough.

 

Problems such as a few parallel hairlines are the HARDEST thing to see on photos and can tremendously affect the grade. On this coin these are most often seen over the cheek and the field in front of Liberty's nose.

 

When I see a Peace Dollar that I think is overgraded, a close look in directional light will very often show "sparkles" that indicate a light rub. Graders obviously do their work in optimal lighting conditions. When you know where and what to look for, you can check for hairlines in a quick glance, but only in person and only with good light. A loupe is great to check for VAMs but rarely needed to establish the grade of a Peace Dollar.

 

If you don't mind a few hairlines, you can establish a VERY attractive collection by looking for well-struck, bagmark-free coins a grade or two down from the "price jump" in condition rarity. At first glance (and in photos) these coins will be the equals of average coins which grade one or two points higher.

 

One thing I've gained a healthy respect for is the skill it must take to be a professional grader. Sometimes they're wrong and sometimes standards change. I've learned a couple of secrets that pertain to a single series, and I don't have to worry about authenticity, esoteric series, or the nuances of old copper.

[TonerGuy]

I think 21 Peace $ are one of the hardest coins to grade or any series - with all due respect to RWB and his analysis which I will read over and over.

 

I think if there was a true way of deciphering the differences between 58s, 62s, 64s and 65s someone could make a small fortune in the crackout and resubmit game with just these coins.

 

I too, like mumu, have seen the TPGS grade these coins all over the place.

 

For example the 21 in the new PCGS holder - I would have graded that coin AU58 from the pics. I would say mumu's is a lock 64 and the PCGS 65 is accurately graded. And I would think Broadstrucks example should be a 65 as well...

 

21s are one the mysteries of Peace $ that I love and make this series challenging.

 

[mumu]

Oh wait you mean the one I posted later. Nevermind. Yeah that thing is crunched up bad. I thought you meant the very first one.

 

In attemp to remove bias, IF THE PICS ARE ACCURATE, I think the 63 I posted above is even cleaner than my toned 21 in NGC 64. Namely the hits on my toner tiara I would say add up to more than the total hits on this 63. I do agree hairlining is possible that I wont see until in hand. I know how hard it is to spot hairline son these. Sometimes it take extreme angles in just the right light. I have one with HLs that requires about a 5mm window of angle to see them.

[mumu]

I think I have 21 fever. It is my favorite US coin. As much as part of me wishes they wstuck with the high relief thruout the series, it really adds to the allure. Its as if they are the proofs of the series since the proofs are so hard to come by.

[mkman123]

How the heck did that one peace graded by PCGS MS63 get a 63? THat looks like AU, the hits are horrible!

[Dave1384]

How the heck did that one peace graded by PCGS MS63 get a 63? THat looks like AU, the hits are horrible!

 

Exactly.. And I would want RWB's pictured coin no matter what the grade. It's gorgeous.

I recently saw on Ebay a PCGS MS 67 slab, the coin appeared to be run over by studded snow tires, it was that bad.

 

The second Peace dollar is nicer looking than the first in the op's original post. And I'm a fan of Great Southern.

[Tradedollarnut]

How the heck did that one peace graded by PCGS MS63 get a 63? THat looks like AU, the hits are horrible!

 

Exactly.. And I would want RWB's pictured coin no matter what the grade. It's gorgeous.

I recently saw on Ebay a PCGS MS 67 slab, the coin appeared to be run over by studded snow tires, it was that bad.

 

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt this.

[Dave1384]

I wish I could link it.

 

Turns out it isn't up anymore.

[Coindude]

Maybe this is a good opportunity for RWB to put of his diagnostic page on 21 Peace Dollars? What say you Roger?

[Tradedollarnut]

And I'm a fan of Great Southern

 

That about says it all, doesn't it?

 

ONCE, just once they had a decent PCGS graded coin for sale - I passed out of general principle.