Ethics and Paypal

[RockMyAmadeus]

I wanted to bring this up, because it's caused quite a bit of upset amongst some members, and the thread in which it was discussed has now been zapped.

 

This board, in general, maintains a fairly high standard of ethical behavior, which is a very good thing. It allows people to trade in a somewhat safer environment, with people they may know more than just as a user id on eBay, and prevents the sort of wholesale fraud which is rampant on eBay and elsewhere.

 

However, there seems to be a blind spot when it comes to Paypal and paying Paypal fees.

 

Paypal is clear that the "personal" option is not for merchandise, but while a lot of folks may not know this, it IS part of their User Agreement, which all customers of Paypal agree to abide by when using Paypal's services.

 

Many folks have done it unknowingly, and that's understandable, to save either themselves or people they like fees. Unfortunately, that's against Paypal's terms, and doing so is stealing of Paypal's rightfully earned fees. After all...if one chooses to use Paypal, that's their choice. There are always other choices.

 

Paypal is extremely handy...much more so than a check or money order or other payment device...but, just as a check or money order costs money at some point (even if you don't pay for it, someone does), so does Paypal have their fee.

 

I liken it to the grape example at the store. If I pop a grape in my mouth offhandedly, not thinking about it, not intending to steal from the store....I've still taken something without paying for it. It's still stealing, even if I'm completely unaware.

 

Hopefully, the same high ethical standard that this board generally has between members can be maintained consistently with every entity with which we do business.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

[gmarguli]

The problem with feeling bad for PayPal is that they don't follow their own rules, they force their monopoly on eBay, and they help commit fraud against sellers by not allowing common sense to prevail.

 

As a seller I'd rather take any other form of payment than PayPal. They're awful.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yeah, Paypal's a pretty crummy company.

 

They've done some awful, awful things.

 

The good thing is, we have the choice not to use them.

[bsshog40]

As far as I'm concerned, I don't like being forced to use a service that merged itself with another service. I understand paying ebay fees but it seems double jeopardy when they merge paypal in to thier system and another fee for them is charged. Paypal is rip-off in it's self. Ebay should have just left paypal as an option like before. Now sellers and buyers are almost forced to give personal bank account numbers and routing numbers to complete transactions. I'm like most other hard working persons that like to save a buck when I can. It's like businesses that charge you more if you pay with a credit card instead of cash. A bunch of bull if you ask me!!!!!

 

And to add, how could they be losing money? Think about all of the paypal transactions that go thru ebay everyday. That money is sitting in a paypal account until the seller transfers it to his account. They are drawing interest off all that money until it is processed out of thier system.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I just recently got my business license for the state of CA (2012) and started collecting sales tax. Paypal charges a fee on the sales tax I collect.

 

When I found out, I was super peeved. I called up and spoke to a supervisor....who went on to tell me "Well, we cleared everything with the IRS on taxes through our legal dept, so there you have it."

 

I thoroughly enjoyed taking this "supervisor" to task for not understanding his job or their requirements by pointing out that Sales Tax is a STATE (and sometimes local) tax, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the IRS.

 

Oops.

 

I called an enrolled agent, and found out that everybody takes a percentage of the ST, Visa, MC, everybody.

 

So if I collect $10 for the state of CA, Paypal takes 29 (or 25) cents of that...but I have to turn the whole $10 in to the state.

 

Something's got to be done about that, and God willing, it will.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As far as I'm concerned, I don't like being forced to use a service that merged itself with another service. I understand paying ebay fees but it seems double jeopardy when they merge paypal in to thier system and another fee for them is charged. Paypal is rip-off in it's self. Ebay should have just left paypal as an option like before. Now sellers and buyers are almost forced to give personal bank account numbers and routing numbers to complete transactions. I'm like most other hard working persons that like to save a buck when I can. It's like businesses that charge you more if you pay with a credit card instead of cash. A bunch of bull if you ask me!!!!!

 

And to add, how could they be losing money? Think about all of the paypal transactions that go thru ebay everyday. That money is sitting in a paypal account until the seller transfers it to his account. They are drawing interest off all that money until it is processed out of thier system.

 

It doesn't matter if they lose or make money...that's no one's concern but their's (this being the US and all.) The point is, if someone agrees to use Paypal for board transactions, they agree to the fees that go with it.

 

In other words, the answer to Paypal's abuses and crimes is to make Paypal answer for them through the justice system...not personal revenge by stealing their fees from them that one agreed to pay when they used the service.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and for the record...the person who posted this:

 

The reason is because he is a tool. And for the record, his long standing status is on the comics forum. I don't even think he collects coins.

 

Hey RMA, gonna call me out for my rules violation or do something productive, like get a life.

 

I don't know who this person is (other than their user id), but unprovoked lashing out at strangers on the internet...while a time honored tradition...isn't really the best way to build up any respect or credibility. You can disagree with someone without being hostile and insulting, especially unprovoked.

 

It's kinda funny....I get all sorts of grief on the comics side for being a dedicated coinee...and here, there are people claiming I don't even collect them. Ironic, no?

 

I'm sorry life has dealt you a tough set of cards. Best of luck to you.

[e1cnr]

PAYPAL is very convenient and because of this, you get charged a fee.

 

Businesses all get charged for accepting/using credit cards... the fee is passed on to everyone and is a part of their business.

 

 

I think I might start asking the cashiers if I can get a 3% discount for using cash .. just to see their reaction to my $8 fast food bill or $40 grocery bill.

[bsshog40]

 

Businesses all get charged for accepting/using credit cards... the fee is passed on to everyone and is a part of their business.

 

You are correct. The charges are passed on to everyone including those that use cash. For those businesses that do not advertise additional charges for using credit cards, the fees are included in the prices of thier products. Why is there a paypal fee for them routing cash from our bank account? Our bank actually does the transfer at request and they don't charge a fee for doing that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Businesses all get charged for accepting/using credit cards... the fee is passed on to everyone and is a part of their business.

 

You are correct. The charges are passed on to everyone including those that use cash. For those businesses that do not advertise additional charges for using credit cards, the fees are included in the prices of thier products. Why is there a paypal fee for them routing cash from our bank account? Our bank actually does the transfer at request and they don't charge a fee for doing that.

 

Paypal's product IS their service. There's a fee because there's a transaction. I'm glad the bank doesn't charge a fee for their side of the transaction, but they could.

 

[RWB]

So...get a normal merchant account and skip the PayFriend scam altogether.

[AstroTrain]

I don't like that PayPal takes 29 cents plus %3(ish) but I do like the fact I don't have to wait up to a week for payment, especially when I typically turn around and use it right away.

 

If I sell $100 coin, it's worth $3 or $4 to me to have it right then and there so I have at it. Plus I use www.salecalc.com when I sell on ebay. It shows me all the fees that I will be hit with between ebay and paypal so I can adjust accordingly. If you have never used it, it's quite cool. You enter your cost, and then you can say "I want to profit $15 dollars on this item." and then it will show you the amount you need to sell for to cover your fees and hit your target.

 

I don't like "big business" as much as I like "mom and pop" business... but all those fees pay for the people working to provide for their families, the stock holders looking to build retirement money, etc.

 

I'll pay it.

[$ilverHawk]

 

Businesses all get charged for accepting/using credit cards... the fee is passed on to everyone and is a part of their business.

 

You are correct. The charges are passed on to everyone including those that use cash. For those businesses that do not advertise additional charges for using credit cards, the fees are included in the prices of thier products. Why is there a paypal fee for them routing cash from our bank account? Our bank actually does the transfer at request and they don't charge a fee for doing that.

 

Paypal's product IS their service. There's a fee because there's a transaction. I'm glad the bank doesn't charge a fee for their side of the transaction, but they could.

 

Yes, like holding your funds because their computer model identified the transaction as one that could be "high risk". Read we want to keep the money in our account to earn interest.. PayPal acts as an escrow agent with out being qualified under any banking laws to be an escrow agent. High level political connections allow this farce.

 

You have avoided direct questioning of your motives by quoting the BST rules regarding listings using PayPal gift, and might I add rightfully so.

 

Now I would ask, why this additional post? Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum?

 

BTW Ethics and PayPal is an oxymoron.

 

Carl

[James_OldeTowne]

I'll post before reading any the other replies.

 

I consider Paypal to be an unethical organization to begin with, therefore, your scenario is a moot point for me. I do not use the service, and will not, as that would be supporting a corrupt organization, in my opinion.

[jom]

The problem with feeling bad for PayPal is that they don't follow their own rules, they force their monopoly on eBay

 

Huh? eBay OWNS Paypal? How can PP force anything? I don't understand....

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

After all...if one chooses to use Paypal, that's their choice. There are always other choices.

There may be other choices, but are the "other choices" given equal footing? Most very definitely... NOT. EBay clearly gives enormous preference for Paypal, and it is precisely this arrangement which I consider to be "corruption". Therefore, as I posted above, I do not use Paypal. I try as hard as possible not to use eBay, and only use it when directed there by others. I NEVER jump on eBay to buy things of my own accord.

 

I liken it to the grape example at the store. If I pop a grape in my mouth offhandedly, not thinking about it, not intending to steal from the store....I've still taken something without paying for it. It's still stealing, even if I'm completely unaware.

Oddly enough, the grocery stores I frequent always have open bags of grapes for sampling, and I partake of that without a second thought of "stealing".

 

If I use the bathroom at the grocery store, am I stealing water, electricity and toilet paper? If I read part of a book at Barnes & Noble and decide not to buy it, is that stealing? These are different scenarios than the one you presented, but all are part of a "grey area" at the bounds of theft, and in the case of Paypal, I will probably never err on the part of accusations of stealing, just because of the corruption I see there.

 

If Paypal and eBay -- either one or both -- closed up shop forever, I would not miss them at all.

[newprepper]

You cannot enter into a financial transaction without somebody trying to make money, I put mone into my bank, I get 0% interest on it, in a CD maybe 1-2%, yet if I borrow money, I pay 8-10% or more, a large inequity. I don't like the fees I pay on ebay or PP, but it is a cost of doing business. I don't like paying more to the gov't in taxes for fuel than the oil company gets. At least they provide me more than the gov't does. And I buy a lot of fuel, around 15K a year. PayPal gets money for stuff they shouldn't, % on shipping I don't like. But once again, the liquidity they provide I do like. Ebay charges up front and in the end, I don't like that either, but once again, it's a cost of business. All said, I agree with RMA, PPgift for purchases is theft. A month ago I didn't understand the difference and asked in a thread. Now I do. I still don't like it. but I'll use it.

[Raisethis2]

 

I have to say, Paypal makes their fair share off the transactions I engage in regarding my coin interests.

 

When you add in my poker and football pool outlay, s since they have very strict rules about being used as "A bank" they give folks no choice but to use the gift option most times.

 

I feel any organization the includes in their Terms of Service a right they grant themselves to confiscate your money (freeze your account) when they feel they have cause is begging for people to be creative with financial transactions to ensure that doesn't happen.

 

They have created a vehicle for money transfer where there is no competition. These losses should be priced in since they're the only game in town.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Folks...the parameters of the original post were board transactions, not eBay.

 

Now I would ask, why this additional post? Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum?

 

Asked and answered.

 

BTW Ethics and PayPal is an oxymoron.

 

Only if you think Paypal is the only party with an obligation to behave ethically.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have to say, Paypal makes their fair share off the transactions I engage in regarding my coin interests.

 

When you add in my poker and football pool outlay, s since they have very strict rules about being used as "A bank" they give folks no choice but to use the gift option most times.

 

I feel any organization the includes in their Terms of Service a right they grant themselves to confiscate your money (freeze your account) when they feel they have cause is begging for people to be creative with financial transactions to ensure that doesn't happen.

 

They have created a vehicle for money transfer where there is no competition. These losses should be priced in since they're the only game in town.

 

People use all sorts of reasons to justify stealing.

 

But to use it to purchase goods and/or services is still stealing.

 

If one doesn't like their User Agreement...one should simply not use their services. No one is forcing anyone to.

 

How did we all exist before Paypal...? :shrug:

[RockMyAmadeus]

After all...if one chooses to use Paypal, that's their choice. There are always other choices.

There may be other choices, but are the "other choices" given equal footing? Most very definitely... NOT. EBay clearly gives enormous preference for Paypal, and it is precisely this arrangement which I consider to be "corruption". Therefore, as I posted above, I do not use Paypal. I try as hard as possible not to use eBay, and only use it when directed there by others. I NEVER jump on eBay to buy things of my own accord.

 

That's right...Paypal, which is owned by eBay, clearly is favored. But it's still not the only choice, and doesn't have anything to do with board transactions.

 

I liken it to the grape example at the store. If I pop a grape in my mouth offhandedly, not thinking about it, not intending to steal from the store....I've still taken something without paying for it. It's still stealing, even if I'm completely unaware.

Oddly enough, the grocery stores I frequent always have open bags of grapes for sampling, and I partake of that without a second thought of "stealing".

 

James. I know you know the difference between samples given away by the store (since it owns the grapes) and just taking some without their ok.

 

If I use the bathroom at the grocery store, am I stealing water, electricity and toilet paper?

 

Moot. They are offered as a service to customers. They are provided by the facility for precisely that purpose.

 

If I read part of a book at Barnes & Noble and decide not to buy it, is that stealing?

 

It depends. What are Barnes & Noble's terms?

 

These are different scenarios than the one you presented, but all are part of a "grey area" at the bounds of theft, and in the case of Paypal, I will probably never err on the part of accusations of stealing, just because of the corruption I see there.

 

Sorry, James. There's no "grey area" here. Using Paypal for merchandise is clearly defined in their terms as not allowed. Therefore, doing it is theft. Black and white.

 

If Paypal and eBay -- either one or both -- closed up shop forever, I would not miss them at all.

 

Neither would I. I would probably dance for joy for months. But that doesn't alter the fact that using personal payment for merchandise is theft.

 

American jurisprudence...and the English Common Law upon which it is based...does NOT allow for violating a company's terms and stealing from them just because one doesn't like the way a company is run.

[$ilverHawk]

Folks...the parameters of the original post were board transactions, not eBay.

 

Now I would ask, why this additional post? Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum?

 

Asked and answered.

 

BTW Ethics and PayPal is an oxymoron.

 

Only if you think Paypal is the only party with an obligation to behave ethically.

 

No you did not answer Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum? Let me simplify it for you. You started this thread and another that has been deleted with the subject of defending PayPal fees vs using PayPal gift to unethically deprive PayPal of their rightfully earned profits. What is your relationship to PayPal?

 

"Only if you think PayPal is the only party with an obligation to behave ethically"

 

Very weak response. PayPal behaves legally, not ethically, don't confuse the two. You made no response regarding my comments on PayPal acting as an escrow agent without being legally chartered as such. And yes that may include transactions on this forum. Then you hide behind the banner that your postings only pertain to transactions between individuals on this forum. Sorry, when you take up the cause of PayPal, you get the whole thing to defend.

 

Now, one more time. Exactly why are you defending PayPal?

 

Carl

 

 

[coinman1794]

PAYPAL is very convenient and because of this, you get charged a fee.

 

Businesses all get charged for accepting/using credit cards... the fee is passed on to everyone and is a part of their business.

 

 

I think I might start asking the cashiers if I can get a 3% discount for using cash .. just to see their reaction to my $8 fast food bill or $40 grocery bill.

 

PayPal is convenient but the fee paid to use it is virtually identical to that charged by privately run credit card meters.

 

It is true that businesses are charging the consumer for these fees; the smarter ones build this into their price structure instead of setting a price and forcing customers to pay extra for credit. Many dealers do offer discounts for payments made by cash or check, and when buying, I often request a discount for paying by check.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Folks...the parameters of the original post were board transactions, not eBay.

 

Now I would ask, why this additional post? Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum?

 

Asked and answered.

 

BTW Ethics and PayPal is an oxymoron.

 

Only if you think Paypal is the only party with an obligation to behave ethically.

 

No you did not answer

 

One more time: I am not defending Paypal. And Paypal doesn't need me to defend them.

 

Why are you so insistent on finding a motive that doesn't exist?

 

Why are you defending the business of PayPal on this forum? Let me simplify it for you. You started this thread and another that has been deleted

 

Correction: I only started this thread. The other one was a sales thread that was not mine.

 

with the subject of defending PayPal fees vs using PayPal gift to unethically deprive PayPal of their rightfully earned profits. What is your relationship to PayPal?

 

"Only if you think PayPal is the only party with an obligation to behave ethically"

 

Very weak response.

 

It's not only NOT a "very weak response", it is precisely the correct response to the the statement that "Ethics and Paypal is an oxymoron." Ethics applies to everyone, not just Paypal. Either we all have a standard, or no one has one. Here's the beauty: one doesn't need to rely on others to behave ethically before he may.

 

PayPal behaves legally, not ethically, don't confuse the two.

 

No worries, I didn't. But you seem to have confused the fact that just because Paypal may not behave ethically, that does not justify others doing so also. You know, the "two wrongs" cliché. THAT is the point.

 

You made no response regarding my comments on PayPal acting as an escrow agent without being legally chartered as such. And yes that may include transactions on this forum. Then you hide behind the banner that your postings only pertain to transactions between individuals on this forum. Sorry, when you take up the cause of PayPal, you get the whole thing to defend.

 

Good thing I'm not defending them then, huh...? Oh, and a correction, if I may: I said "board transactions", which refers to ANY off-eBay transaction that occurs on any message board, not "this forum" alone. The point was "not eBay."

 

Now, one more time. Exactly why are you defending PayPal?

 

Carl

 

 

1. Because I am secretly the CEO of Paypal.

 

2. Because I am secretly the CEO of eBay.

 

3. Despite my multiple statements about how rotten Paypal is, I secretly think it's the greatest thing ever invented.

 

4. I'm not defending Paypal.

 

You pick. The real answer doesn't seem to interest you much.

[mkman123]

I stick with money orders and personal checks from well known members. No fees and everyone is happy.

[lehigh96]

Oh, and for the record...the person who posted this:

 

The reason is because he is a tool. And for the record, his long standing status is on the comics forum. I don't even think he collects coins.

 

Hey RMA, gonna call me out for my rules violation or do something productive, like get a life.

 

I don't know who this person is (other than their user id), but unprovoked lashing out at strangers on the internet...while a time honored tradition...isn't really the best way to build up any respect or credibility. You can disagree with someone without being hostile and insulting, especially unprovoked.

 

It's kinda funny....I get all sorts of grief on the comics side for being a dedicated coinee...and here, there are people claiming I don't even collect them. Ironic, no?

 

I'm sorry life has dealt you a tough set of cards. Best of luck to you.

 

I don't need to build up respect or credibility on this or any other coin forum. If you were actually a coin collector like you pretend to be, you would know this. Furthermore, we don't need to be lectured on the subject of ethics by a forum troll.

 

You want us to believe that you collect coins. Then start posting some coins and discussing coins and stop being the Paypal police. Nobody cares if Paypal doesn't get their fee.

 

Btw, do you really expect us to believe that you motive for posting this thread was to clarify to the point that you beat like a red headed step child in the thread that got zapped? Your such a good little troll. Post the thread and act like you motive is innocent. Then when it appears that everyone is fooled, you reveal your true agenda which was to respond to my slam which you couldn't do on the other thread since it got zapped. Of course, now you will deny it, while using 5 consecutive posts to do so all while trying to ruin my credibility in process.

 

We all know what you are, you aren't fooling anyone! Now go after that post count title.

 

[BLive1972]

Spoon paypal. If someone offered to send me something as a gift, I can care less. I've even offered it to avoid fees. Stick up for them all you want & call me a thief. Who cares...they get theirs in the end.

 

I'm such a bad person...

 

 

[PerryHall]

Using Paypal gift for a business transaction is stealing. It's no different than watching a TV show and not watching the commercials which is stealing the entertainment from the show.

[BLive1972]

DVR --> fast forward through commercials....That's it; next stop for me is prison

I've given plenty of business to PayPal. 1 or 2 personal transactions is ok to me. They've been late with a few payments posting to my bank, so I'll just consider it my late fee's to them.

[Conder101]

He is right, Agreeing to the terms and then using the gift option on merchandise purchases to avoid the fees is stealing. The obvious solution is that Paypal should eliminate the gift option and require fees to be paid for all transfers. As with other things in life those who don't follow the rules eventually mess things up for everyone.