Ethics and Paypal

[RockMyAmadeus]

One last comment: Ebay/PayPal abide by The Golden Rule: "We have the gold, so we make the rules".

 

Anyone can blindly follow all laws and rules and never challenge anything. Had our forefathers done so, the United States of America would not exist.

 

The founders of our country broke the law by "stealing" from England what was rightfully theirs.

 

Their are countless examples throughout history where violating the "law" led to a greater good.

 

Anyone who blindly defends corporate greed should get a job at a major U.S. bank on Wall Street. Legalized "theft" is the major reason of the Great Recession and it's alive and well at Ebay/PayPal, on Wall Street, and at many corporations in America and around the world.

 

Capitalism is the best economic system devised by man but has many flaws. This "discussion" is an example of some of those flaws.

 

Anyone can use any ends to justify any means.

 

"But it turned out well!"

 

I can't find any examples in this thread of anyone blindly defending corporate greed, so maybe you can help me with what you're referring to.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The wages of any sin, even "the smallest", even one, is death. But that's an entirely different discussion.

 

Yep, there you go. Know Jesus?

 

I do. I'm not worried.

 

"The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

 

Your argument is with John, not me.

[RockMyAmadeus]

One last comment: Ebay/PayPal abide by The Golden Rule: "We have the gold, so we make the rules".

 

Anyone can blindly follow all laws and rules and never challenge anything. Had our forefathers done so, the United States of America would not exist.

 

The founders of our country broke the law by "stealing" from England what was rightfully theirs.

 

Their are countless examples throughout history where violating the "law" led to a greater good.

 

Anyone who blindly defends corporate greed should get a job at a major U.S. bank on Wall Street. Legalized "theft" is the major reason of the Great Recession and it's alive and well at Ebay/PayPal, on Wall Street, and at many corporations in America and around the world.

 

Capitalism is the best economic system devised by man but has many flaws. This "discussion" is an example of some of those flaws.

 

what was rightfully englands?

 

Everything in the 13 English colonies. England owned it all and taxed it heavily. "Illegal" actions by settlers on the east coast of America were a clear violation of English Law. A new nation resulted from a war in which England defended their legal rights.

 

There use to be a law in the United States that allowed the legal ownership of slaves. Many in northern states broke the law, harboring black slaves from their rightful owners who resided in the south. For thousands of years no one questioned slavery. It was considered ethical and legal for many centuries.

 

Today many persons accept corporate greed as legal and ethical. Will that change too?

 

These are really very poor, very simplistic arguments, made from emotion.

 

Comparing harboring slaves to stealing from a company as morally equivalent...?

 

The commandment says "You shall not steal."

 

It does not say "You shall not steal (unless you deem the entity you're stealing from to be guilty of "corporate greed", whatever that means, then it's ok.)"

 

Your premise, sir, is flawed. No one has "accepted", "justified", "stood up for", or in any other matter even remotely suggest that "corporate greed" in the form of theft from others is acceptable.

 

The issue is not whether you think Paypal has stolen from people, and never has been. Clearfly, they have, because they have been through our justice system, several times, and have been found in violation.

 

The issue, rather, is whether or not a person has the right to steal from Paypal, based on nothing but their own judgement about who and what Paypal is.

 

The answer, of course, is no.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

1. I didn't realize there were rules on how one must post.

 

2. The fact that you are angry about how someone else chooses to post is a very serious problem for you. To state that one must make a "positive contribution" (by your definition) or they risk the wrath of Lehigh96...well, who's really running roughshod over whom...?

 

3. Let me make it very clear that I don't have to defend my posts, especially to someone who thinks it's their duty to dictate how other people should post. No one has to defend how they post to anyone but the moderation team of this board. Whether I've helped thousands, or none at all (and the answer is much closer to the former), is no one's business, provided I follow the rules of this forum.

 

4. I seriously doubt you've seen even 1/100th of my posts on this board, so you are hardly qualified to make pronouncements on what you have actually seen.

 

1) I never said there were rules on how one must post. I simply stated that your posting style bothers me. But I never stated there was a rule preventing your from acting like a clown.

 

2) What wrath, what are you talking about? I toss a zinger your way and your cry like I little girl and call it wrath. What a baby! Your posts bother me and lessen my enjoyment of these forums. If you don't like that or the fact that I will respond by criticizing your posting style, tough mess.

 

3) If you don't feel the need to defend your posts, then why are you. Btw, time to wake up. You haven't helped anyone on the NGC coin forum. All you do is come here post your drivel and boost your post count.

 

4) With over 30K posts, I am sure you are right. But the large majority of your posts were made on the Comics forum which I don't even read. Nice try dreck collector!

 

So while you are a legend in your own mind, ask yourself this question: "what have the members of the NGC Coin Forum learned from my posts?" If you are as honest as you claim in this thread, you will admit that the answer is "nothing."

 

You're inventing statements and proscribing them to me. This is called a "straw man" argument, and it's a logical fallacy.

 

At no point did I "claim" ANYTHING about me. You invented that statement out of thin air, based on supposition, and now are stating that I "claimed" it.

 

Not saying that I'm not, mind you...just pointing out the fallaciousness of your statement.

 

As to what I have and have not "taught" others...that's not for me to decide. If someone has learned from my posts, great. But I would not be so arrogant as to presume that anyone needed me to teach them anything. This is an internet message board, not a classroom.

 

And...again, I must belabor the fact that there are no requirement as to what one MUST post.

 

Ooooh, straw man argument, logical fallacy! The hallmarks of the professional internet forum geek. Such a sad little life you lead.

 

It is for you to decide what you have taught others huh? This is a forum. Your reputation and credibility are based on what others think of you, not what you think of yourself. I think you are a complete joke, and I am sure that I am not the only one here who thinks so. What do people think of me? They probably don't like that I don't follow some stupid rule about never calling other people names. I call things as I see them. If that means a clown is called a clown, then so be it. But make no mistake, every member of this forum will recognize that I make a positive contribution with regards to sharing numismatic knowledge which is the purpose of this forum.

 

Your purpose on this forum is simply to feed your own ego and give meaning to your pitiful existence that leads you to post over 30 thousand times in 8 years. Seriously, do you ever leave your house? Or your computer for that matter?

 

Furthermore, I never said that using paypal gift isn't tantamount to theft. I simply stated that I and most of the board members of this forum don't care.

 

Again...I wasn't aware they had elections for board spokesman.

 

You do not speak for "most." You speak for you. Presuming you speak for "most" is the sign of an arrogant man.

 

Your calling me arrogant. Hey pot, meet kettle!

 

I doubt Paypal would consider it theft since they routinely freeze peoples accounts for the sole purpose of generating interest on those funds while they are frozen.

 

Do you have any evidence to back up this libelous accusation?

 

You mean besides the hundreds of written testimonials of Paypal users who detailed their experience of having their funds frozen that are posted all over the internet?

 

Naturally, this prevents the rightful owner of that money from transferring those funds into an interest generating account of their own. Now that is theft.

 

 

I suspect...and am fairly certain of this...that all of these things that you have claimed about me are nothing more than projections about character flaws that you dislike about yourself. That's nearly always the case, especially on internet message boards.

 

Like I said before, I am sorry that whatever circumstances in life led you to the point where you think it's your right to dictate to other people how they must post on an internet message board, but the problem lies solely with you.

 

I ask again...who's really the one trying to harass, cajole, and insult others into behaving as he sees fit?

 

Best wishes.

 

I have no character flaws, so you are wrong, despite your belief that you are an expert on internet message boards. Dictate how others should post? Nope, just criticizing your trolling ways. Nothing wrong with that, nothing at all.

 

Good luck on getting a life.

 

Here's the bottom line, LeHigh.

 

I don't know who you are. I have had zero interaction with you outside of this thread (and the first sales thread that inspired it.)

 

You don't know who I am. You have had zero interaction with me, under the same circumstances.

 

Here's the difference: I am discussing a larger principle, something that is not directed at any one person in particular. The discussion is not an attack on any individual, and, in fact, I have not named any individual in any of the discussion.

 

You, on the other hand, took my general comments personally. You internalized them, and allowed your difference of opinion with me to manifest itself into a personal attack against me.

 

You called me a "tool", among other names. You have denigrated me. You have attempted to dictate what other people may post, on a board in which you have no say on such matters.

 

All of which was entirely unprovoked.

 

I have not insulted you. I have not denigrated you. I have not dictated, in any way, how you, or anyone, should or should not post. I have no say on such matters. This board does not belong to me.

 

Why you have done this? Only you know.

 

But people will, indeed, come to their own conclusions about just who is what.

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to lash out so vehemently against strangers, simply because they don't agree with your personal philosophy.

 

I'm sorry that you have to reduce a discussion about general principles into a personal attack.

 

But I will not respond in kind.

 

If you don't like what I say, or how I say it, you have the same choice as everyone else on this board: ignore me. I don't go after you, as you have gone after me. But I will not let you insult and denigrate me as far as I can help it.

 

So please...if what I say upsets you this much, just ignore me.

 

Best wishes to you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I understand this whole thread, it is easy to violate principles when it is against a faceless corporation, the people who do this would not dream of doing it to friends though. It is just the nature of the beast, much like people steal from wal-mart or any other corporation, they aren't stealing from people, they are stealing from wal-mart, nevermind the fact that they are stealing from everybody, Waltons, stockholders, employees, consumers, because it all affects the cost of merchandise in the future, just the way it is

 

 

I was going to keep my mouth shut about this whole thing but (blah blah), I am not convinced the issue of the "Rule" is one of Ethic.

 

I realize the issue is being interpreted as Ethic, and if there is clarity of language in the "Rule" I would understand.

 

What I interpret is a frightfully worded Rule, that is subject to interpretations that allow the choice of action a person chooses.

 

However, intent by action speaks to the individual.

If the individual clearly interprets the Rule as stringent and confining, and acts to deceive, this is clearly an issue of Ethic.

 

If a person can not truly decide clear intent of the Rule, and after seeking clarity does not receive clarity and decides to act in good faith without intent to deceive, this is not Ethic.

 

I'm not quite sure what is unclear about the following:

 

""Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase"

 

(emphasis added)

 

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&fli=true

 

Further:

 

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

 

Now, I can understand where this may leave wiggle room..."well, they just said I couldn't ASK...they didn't say the buyer couldn't OFFER" (setting aside the obvious conflict of how do they find out in the first place)....but that wiggle room is completely shut by the definition of a Personal Payment.

 

I guess we just have a different interpretation of the words.

The last 2 paragraphs of my Post might help clarify my interpretation.

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

What does "without a purchase" mean to you?

 

Setting aside the wording used in posing the question, I would again refer you to my Post and please read carefully.

 

It may also help to read my reply to Prep.

 

You haven't answered my question.

 

Actually, I did.

Unfortunately, I did not answer to your personal satisfaction.

I apologize.

Back to the Creek.

 

I can't find the answer to "what does 'without a purchase' mean to you" anywhere in the last two paragraphs.

 

[Kenneth F]

 

[newprepper]

RMA, he states that it says it didnt say they couldn't offer, but then he says, the other statement does not leave the "wiggle room"

 

)....but that wiggle room is completely shut by the definition of a Personal Payment.

 

It took me a few times reading it to understand also

[lehigh96]

 

Here's the bottom line, LeHigh.

 

I don't know who you are. I have had zero interaction with you outside of this thread (and the first sales thread that inspired it.)

 

You don't know who I am. You have had zero interaction with me, under the same circumstances.

 

Here's the difference: I am discussing a larger principle, something that is not directed at any one person in particular. The discussion is not an attack on any individual, and, in fact, I have not named any individual in any of the discussion.

 

You, on the other hand, took my general comments personally. You internalized them, and allowed your difference of opinion with me to manifest itself into a personal attack against me.

 

You called me a "tool", among other names. You have denigrated me. You have attempted to dictate what other people may post, on a board in which you have no say on such matters.

 

All of which was entirely unprovoked.

 

I have not insulted you. I have not denigrated you. I have not dictated, in any way, how you, or anyone, should or should not post. I have no say on such matters. This board does not belong to me.

 

Why you have done this? Only you know.

 

But people will, indeed, come to their own conclusions about just who is what.

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to lash out so vehemently against strangers, simply because they don't agree with your personal philosophy.

 

I'm sorry that you have to reduce a discussion about general principles into a personal attack.

 

But I will not respond in kind.

 

If you don't like what I say, or how I say it, you have the same choice as everyone else on this board: ignore me. I don't go after you, as you have gone after me. But I will not let you insult and denigrate me as far as I can help it.

 

So please...if what I say upsets you this much, just ignore me.

 

Best wishes to you.

 

So calling you a tool is "lashing out vehemently?" Dude, where do you live? In the Northeast, that is almost cordial. I have already told you that your posts and your posting style lessens my enjoyment of this forum. I would ignore your posts but, you, like many other of your kind, are really only interested in your post count so ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

As far as not letting me insult or denigrate you, good luck with that. I really like how you end every post directed towards me ends with best wishes. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that those wishes are not sincere. But you are right, people will come to their conclusions about who is what. And when they do, you won't be able to escape it.

[FishyOne]

RMA apparently thinks: Legal = Ethical and Illegal = Unethical.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, much of what is legal is unethical and vice verse.

 

Corporate America is so unethical today it's a joke. eBay/PayPal lead the pack.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It's been worse; think Jay Gould and the rest of the robber barons...

[Hard Times]

RMA apparently thinks: Legal = Ethical and Illegal = Unethical.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, much of what is legal is unethical and vice verse.

 

Corporate America is so unethical today it's a joke. eBay/PayPal lead the pack.

 

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

 

But maybe I am being naive?

 

Best, HT

[James_OldeTowne]

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

!!!!!! I just had to come back to the sheer lunacy of that comment!

 

So a robber points a gun at your head and tells you in that he plans to shoot you.... and then proceeds to do it. I guess he was neither corrupt or unethical because he "told you right up front what his game is"?

 

 

[bochiman]

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

!!!!!! I just had to come back to the sheer lunacy of that comment!

 

So a robber points a gun at your head and tells you in that he plans to shoot you.... and then proceeds to do it. I guess he was neither corrupt or unethical because he "told you right up front what his game is"?

 

 

Over exaggerate much?

[MarkFeld]

 

Here's the bottom line, LeHigh.

 

I don't know who you are. I have had zero interaction with you outside of this thread (and the first sales thread that inspired it.)

 

You don't know who I am. You have had zero interaction with me, under the same circumstances.

 

Here's the difference: I am discussing a larger principle, something that is not directed at any one person in particular. The discussion is not an attack on any individual, and, in fact, I have not named any individual in any of the discussion.

 

You, on the other hand, took my general comments personally. You internalized them, and allowed your difference of opinion with me to manifest itself into a personal attack against me.

 

You called me a "tool", among other names. You have denigrated me. You have attempted to dictate what other people may post, on a board in which you have no say on such matters.

 

All of which was entirely unprovoked.

 

I have not insulted you. I have not denigrated you. I have not dictated, in any way, how you, or anyone, should or should not post. I have no say on such matters. This board does not belong to me.

 

Why you have done this? Only you know.

 

But people will, indeed, come to their own conclusions about just who is what.

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to lash out so vehemently against strangers, simply because they don't agree with your personal philosophy.

 

I'm sorry that you have to reduce a discussion about general principles into a personal attack.

 

But I will not respond in kind.

 

If you don't like what I say, or how I say it, you have the same choice as everyone else on this board: ignore me. I don't go after you, as you have gone after me. But I will not let you insult and denigrate me as far as I can help it.

 

So please...if what I say upsets you this much, just ignore me.

 

Best wishes to you.

 

So calling you a tool is "lashing out vehemently?" Dude, where do you live? In the Northeast, that is almost cordial. I have already told you that your posts and your posting style lessens my enjoyment of this forum. I would ignore your posts but, you, like many other of your kind, are really only interested in your post count so ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

As far as not letting me insult or denigrate you, good luck with that. I really like how you end every post directed towards me ends with best wishes. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that those wishes are not sincere. But you are right, people will come to their conclusions about who is what. And when they do, you won't be able to escape it.

 

Paul, there is an "ignore this user" option, which takes only seconds to initiate. So your "endless endeavor" comment does not hold up.

[FishyOne]

You're not naive. I occasionally sell on eBay and use PayPal sometimes. They offer a service and perhaps my distaste of the OP's ideology has taken this thing way too far. I have paid $1,000's in eBay/PayPal fees over the years and continue to pay $100's every year.

 

I spent 25 years as a manager and engineer at several major corporations. I've studied scores of others. The end game is to extract as much money as possible from the pigeons (consumers) while avoiding paying taxes and under-reporting income. There are exceptions but they are few and far between today.

 

It hasn't always been that way; we have been heading toward unmitigated greed in Corporate America for many decades now. I believe it will haunt us in the future and will result in an entirely different economic system in our country within 50 years.

 

Lo and behold someone bought a coin from me last week and actually sent regular PayPal. I got Seller protection and the buyer got Buyer Protection. Something we both forgo when they send "Gift"!

[Hard Times]

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

!!!!!! I just had to come back to the sheer lunacy of that comment!

 

So a robber points a gun at your head and tells you in that he plans to shoot you.... and then proceeds to do it. I guess he was neither corrupt or unethical because he "told you right up front what his game is"?

 

 

The obvious difference that by your comment makes it clear you can't comprehend basic reasoning is that you did not invite the robber to point a gun at your head but it is solely by your own choice if you play in the ebay/PP park. Hence as usual James your accusation 'to the sheer lunacy of that comment' is without merit and typical of your bold, arrogant, proclamations here on these boards, that suggests you think you know all and the rest of us have no ability to make reasoned discussion here.

 

We bow to your superiority James!

 

Best, HT

[lehigh96]

 

So calling you a tool is "lashing out vehemently?" Dude, where do you live? In the Northeast, that is almost cordial. I have already told you that your posts and your posting style lessens my enjoyment of this forum. I would ignore your posts but, you, like many other of your kind, are really only interested in your post count so ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

As far as not letting me insult or denigrate you, good luck with that. I really like how you end every post directed towards me ends with best wishes. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that those wishes are not sincere. But you are right, people will come to their conclusions about who is what. And when they do, you won't be able to escape it.

 

Paul, there is an "ignore this user" option, which takes only seconds to initiate. So your "endless endeavor" comment does not hold up.

 

Yes it does hold up Mark. Everybody argues with this dude and when they quote him, his posts are visible whether I block him or not. And it is very difficult to follow a thread when you are missing some of the comments, which also reduces my enjoyment of the forum.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

!!!!!! I just had to come back to the sheer lunacy of that comment!

 

So a robber points a gun at your head and tells you in that he plans to shoot you.... and then proceeds to do it. I guess he was neither corrupt or unethical because he "told you right up front what his game is"?

 

The obvious difference that by your comment makes it clear you can't comprehend basic reasoning is that you did not invite the robber to point a gun at your head but it is solely by your own choice if you play in the ebay/PP park. Hence as usual James your accusation 'to the sheer lunacy of that comment' is without merit and typical of your bold, arrogant, proclamations here on these boards, that suggests you think you know all and the rest of us have no ability to make reasoned discussion here.

Yep, that is exactly how I suspected you would rationalize your wacky comment, though I was holding out hope . You must think that I invited the robber into my home??

 

So a little old lady walks into the coin store with her deceased husband's complete set of NGC MS-65 silver dollars. The dealer says "Ma'am, we will pay you today's best price on silver plus an extra dollar per coin because of the nice holders". She agrees and walks out of the store happily, $5000 richer, even though she could have chosen to visit the dealer down the block.

 

Obviously, according to you, this was ethical behavior because "the dealer told her right up front what their game is".

 

And you say I can't "comprehend basic reasoning"? Wow. Just... I dunno... Wow.

[comicdonna]

Paypal removed the limited status on my account.

[mintcollector]

I don't like that PayPal takes 29 cents plus %3(ish) but I do like the fact I don't have to wait up to a week for payment, especially when I typically turn around and use it right away.

 

If I sell $100 coin, it's worth $3 or $4 to me to have it right then and there so I have at it. Plus I use www.salecalc.com when I sell on ebay. It shows me all the fees that I will be hit with between ebay and paypal so I can adjust accordingly. If you have never used it, it's quite cool. You enter your cost, and then you can say "I want to profit $15 dollars on this item." and then it will show you the amount you need to sell for to cover your fees and hit your target.

 

I don't like "big business" as much as I like "mom and pop" business... but all those fees pay for the people working to provide for their families, the stock holders looking to build retirement money, etc.

 

I'll pay it.

 

Not to change the subject, but thank you so much for posting this link! I didn't know a site like this existed.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

[Nutmeg Coin]

The merit of the ebay/paypal system remains efficiency and quick turn around time relative to other auction options. Any other option, Great Collections, Teletrade, Scotsman, HA you are looking at an additional month or so on funds access.

[Hard Times]

The merit of the ebay/paypal system remains efficiency and quick turn around time relative to other auction options. Any other option, Great Collections, Teletrade, Scotsman, HA you are looking at an additional month or so on funds access.

 

That is a great point Nutmeg. And of course much lower fees than any of the above make it still a fantastic venue. Sure there are crooks doing ebay, but you can get fleeced buying/bidding online at any auction house if you don't know what you are doing, so how is it that ebay is 'corrupt', as some here seem to think (from competing venues on top of that)?

 

Best, HT

[James_OldeTowne]

The merit of the ebay/paypal system remains efficiency and quick turn around time relative to other auction options. Any other option, Great Collections, Teletrade, Scotsman, HA you are looking at an additional month or so on funds access.

It's pretty easy to dispel that myth, because you're analogy isn't complete. It leaves out three factors:

 

(1) With an auction company, you can negotiate a cash advance, which means you can actually get some of your money before your coin(s) are even offered for sale. Obviously, that is at least some number of days quicker than what is possible with eBay. No eBay scenario can beat that for so-called "turn around time".

 

(2) You may have to account for returns on eBay. If that happens, not only are you out the overhead costs (return shipping, time value of money, etc.), but you can substantially delay the time when you actually get paid, since you have to wait for the return to come back, relist it, etc. I cannot speak for all auction companies, but I know for a fact that with some, this problem is eliminated since your coins are sold as-is, where-is.

 

(2b) This assumes you offer your coins on eBay at a price where it actually sells! I have often seen the same coins regurgitate on eBay for outlandish periods of time -- sometimes many months or even years before they actually sell (no exaggeration). In essence, those people have "turn around time" of months or years, which is much worse than any reasonable auction venue.

 

(3) And of course, as can be read in numerous legitimate places on the internet, Paypal can hold your funds basically at their whim for, I believe, 21 days? Add 21 days to the time it took your sale to conclude, and you can easily be a month out from receiving your funds.

 

Naturally, the sole fastest way to sell your coins is by just simply taking them to some sort of legitimate venue (coin shop, coin show, coin club meeting, whatever) and sell the coins directly for cash. If "efficiency" and "turnaround" are truly what matters, that beats the pants off of eBay AND any auction situation (perhaps trumped only by a cash advance).

[Nutmeg Coin]

Competition is always healthy and the arguments against ebay and paypal are also somewhat compelling as they seem to have a virtual monopoly in their type of auction; yes there are others I understand like ubid, but in terms of market share you really can't compete with them on the same terms they offer. Ebay has been complicit with grading fraud as no coin auction company I know of has; why haven't they been sued in a class action suit for being complicit with fake grading? They were virtual partners in crime for years with all the oversold and problem material falsely sold as good for whatever hypothetical grade sellers were assigning. And that is one reason I avoided them in both buying and selling and sold through numismatic auctions. It is about time a bunch of numismatic auction companies competed on similar terms as ebay.

 

Monopolies are a threat to equitable commerce; a monopoly is like the overstuffed spider or bloated snake that have control over web or turf. Microsoft was sued by the justice department at one point but they wore them down and the suit was dropped.

[James_OldeTowne]

Competition is always healthy and the arguments against ebay and paypal are also somewhat compelling as they seem to have a virtual monopoly in their type of auction; yes there are others I understand like ubid, but in terms of market share you really can't compete with them on the same terms they offer. Ebay has been complicit with grading fraud as no coin auction company I know of has; why haven't they been sued in a class action suit for being complicit with fake grading? They were virtual partners in crime for years with all the oversold and problem material falsely sold as good for whatever hypothetical grade sellers were assigning. And that is one reason I avoided them in both buying and selling and sold through numismatic auctions. It is about time a bunch of numismatic auction companies competed on similar terms as ebay.

 

Monopolies are a threat to equitable commerce; a monopoly is like the overstuffed spider or bloated snake that have control over web or turf. Microsoft was sued by the justice department at one point but they wore them down and the suit was dropped.

I don't try to hide the fact that I used to LOVE eBay, but despise Paypal, and haven't been able to enjoy eBay for years. That being said, I agree with you 100% that ALL fair competition is always good for any free market model, so with that in mind, I grudgingly accept eBay.

 

My suspicion is that, for all of what seems to be eBay's "monopoly" on what really amounts to a small portion of the online market, their influence has only been dwindling slowly but steadily over the past several years due to short-sighted, foolish business model decisions. It seems to me (I have no data to back this up) that Amazon has inversely been increasing their market dominance at eBay's expense. I DO love to use Amazon's website, though I've never purchased a coin off of Amazon.

 

So in short, competition is good, and you couldn't have stated it any better.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA apparently thinks: Legal = Ethical and Illegal = Unethical.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, much of what is legal is unethical and vice verse.

 

Corporate America is so unethical today it's a joke. eBay/PayPal lead the pack.

 

I can speak for myself. Really, I think that's been abundantly proven throughout this thread. You have what you think I think wrong. It is not the legality that defines the ethics, but the ethics that define the legality.

 

So, can we please put that argument to rest? It's not what I believe, I've told you it's not what I believe, but you keep bringing it up like it is.

 

Your statement that "much of what is legal is unethical" is founded on nothing but personal opinion, as there is a mountain of evidence to disprove it.

 

Your broad, sweeping generalizations may be broad and sweeping, but they're not quite true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Here's the bottom line, LeHigh.

 

I don't know who you are. I have had zero interaction with you outside of this thread (and the first sales thread that inspired it.)

 

You don't know who I am. You have had zero interaction with me, under the same circumstances.

 

Here's the difference: I am discussing a larger principle, something that is not directed at any one person in particular. The discussion is not an attack on any individual, and, in fact, I have not named any individual in any of the discussion.

 

You, on the other hand, took my general comments personally. You internalized them, and allowed your difference of opinion with me to manifest itself into a personal attack against me.

 

You called me a "tool", among other names. You have denigrated me. You have attempted to dictate what other people may post, on a board in which you have no say on such matters.

 

All of which was entirely unprovoked.

 

I have not insulted you. I have not denigrated you. I have not dictated, in any way, how you, or anyone, should or should not post. I have no say on such matters. This board does not belong to me.

 

Why you have done this? Only you know.

 

But people will, indeed, come to their own conclusions about just who is what.

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to lash out so vehemently against strangers, simply because they don't agree with your personal philosophy.

 

I'm sorry that you have to reduce a discussion about general principles into a personal attack.

 

But I will not respond in kind.

 

If you don't like what I say, or how I say it, you have the same choice as everyone else on this board: ignore me. I don't go after you, as you have gone after me. But I will not let you insult and denigrate me as far as I can help it.

 

So please...if what I say upsets you this much, just ignore me.

 

Best wishes to you.

 

So calling you a tool is "lashing out vehemently?"

 

No, but the sum total of your emotional outbursts towards me definitely is.

 

Dude, where do you live? In the Northeast, that is almost cordial. I have already told you that your posts and your posting style lessens my enjoyment of this forum. I would ignore your posts but, you, like many other of your kind, are really only interested in your post count so ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

That's a copout, and worse, ignoring people you don't like, rather than insulting them endlessly, is the rule of this board.

 

As far as not letting me insult or denigrate you, good luck with that.

 

Your implication is correct: there's little I can personally do to stop you from trolling me. I could insult you in kind, and I could out-endurance you, but that makes me someone I don't need to be.

 

That does not mean, however, that the mods are without recourse.

 

I really like how you end every post directed towards me ends with best wishes. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that those wishes are not sincere.

 

They most definitely are sincere. I wish for you to be a good man, a decent man, an honest man, and a kind man. That is what I fervently wish for everyone. That it would be insincere coming from you does not by extension mean it is insincere from others. That you are not these things changes nothing about my desire for you to be them.

 

But you are right, people will come to their conclusions about who is what. And when they do, you won't be able to escape it.

 

We can only be who we are, LeHigh. I know exactly who and what I am, and am completely comfortable with it, while at the same time, ever striving to be a better man than I was yesterday. I have been comfortable with myself...and other people's conclusions about me, right, wrong, or indifferent...for a very, very long time. Some of those conclusions are correct. Some are not. I am only responsible for myself, and cannot control the conclusions others come to.

 

Hopefully, positive conclusions will be reinforced, and negative conclusions will be reexamined...while I work on making myself a better man. Either way, I'm ok with it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I hear people bash ebay/PP all the time, folks claim they are corrupt (James Early US to quote one on these boards), claim they are unethical (see above quote from Fish). Not sure how they are corrupt or unethical - they tell you right up front what their game is - anyone can read their conditions for playing in their field on their website and in my experience, they don't veer from those conditions. You don't like their game, find another field to play ball in. Disliking their game does not equate to corrupt or unethical behavior. I have had nothing but success playing in the ebay/PP field.

!!!!!! I just had to come back to the sheer lunacy of that comment!

 

So a robber points a gun at your head and tells you in that he plans to shoot you.... and then proceeds to do it. I guess he was neither corrupt or unethical because he "told you right up front what his game is"?

 

 

James, this is a bad analogy.

 

Paypal is not pointing a gun at anyone's head. No one is forced to use it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

They offer a service and perhaps my distaste of the OP's ideology has taken this thing way too far.

 

No, your distaste is of what you incorrectly believe to be my ideology .

 

You claimed to be a follower of specific religious system.

 

One of the central tenets of that system is "you shall not steal."

 

There is no qualification of that command. Let me say that again: there is no qualification of that command

 

I believe in "you shall not steal."

 

Do you disagree with "you shall not steal"?

 

It seems to me that, to you, stealing is "ok" so long as your intended vicitm "deserves it."

 

Am I wrong?

 

I spent 25 years as a manager and engineer at several major corporations. I've studied scores of others. The end game is to extract as much money as possible from the pigeons (consumers) while avoiding paying taxes and under-reporting income. There are exceptions but they are few and far between today.

 

It hasn't always been that way; we have been heading toward unmitigated greed in Corporate America for many decades now. I believe it will haunt us in the future and will result in an entirely different economic system in our country within 50 years.

 

I do not disagree with any of this. I have made that clear multiple times.

 

How many times to I have to state that before you will finally believe what I say...?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

So calling you a tool is "lashing out vehemently?" Dude, where do you live? In the Northeast, that is almost cordial. I have already told you that your posts and your posting style lessens my enjoyment of this forum. I would ignore your posts but, you, like many other of your kind, are really only interested in your post count so ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

As far as not letting me insult or denigrate you, good luck with that. I really like how you end every post directed towards me ends with best wishes. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that those wishes are not sincere. But you are right, people will come to their conclusions about who is what. And when they do, you won't be able to escape it.

 

Paul, there is an "ignore this user" option, which takes only seconds to initiate. So your "endless endeavor" comment does not hold up.

 

Yes it does hold up Mark. Everybody argues with this dude and when they quote him, his posts are visible whether I block him or not. And it is very difficult to follow a thread when you are missing some of the comments, which also reduces my enjoyment of the forum.

 

 

There is a contradiction here. Allow me to point it out:

 

Most of his posts are over on the comic side

 

vs.

 

ignoring you becomes an endless endeavor.

 

 

Let us consider the facts for a moment.

 

In the last 3 months, I have made 98 posts on the coin side of this forum, not including this one, many of which were in this thread.

 

In the last 3 months, Lehigh96 has made 84 posts here.

 

So, it would seem it's almost as difficult to avoid Lehigh as it is myself.

 

 

A quick analysis of my posts reveal that the vast, vast majority of them have been one or two lines, mostly admiring something, and to which mostly no one replied (since reply was unnecessary.)

 

As to the claim that "everybody argues with this dude"...hyperbole is fun, but it's useless in making factual arguments. The most "arguing" involving me has been in this very thread (and aside from you and Fishy, it's been a discussion, not an "argument"...I have a great deal of respect for James, even if we don't agree on this subject. We've managed to disagree without once feeling the need to denigrate the other for not sharing the same opinion.)

 

This is a fact which is true for my entire history on the NGC board.

 

So, it would seem the solution for lehigh...is simply to avoid this thread.

 

But I know lehigh can't, and won't, because lehigh is what he is claiming I am.

 

:shrug:

 

So, to lehigh I would simply say: it's not that difficult to follow threads with people on ignore. People do it on the comics side all day, every day. And if you simply MUST see what someone says, that's what the toggle is for. The problem lies not in the ignore function, but rather your unwillingness to leave someone alone if you don't like what they say.

 

And if you don't like this discussion, the answer is even easier: don't click the thread.

 

You can trust in this: I will never, ever engage you on this board for any reason, ever, unless you attempt to engage me. It really is that simple.