Why are Shipwreck Effects not graded

[jimjum12]

I've wanted an SS Republic 1861-O SLH and have noticed they don't have grades OR details. Why is this ? GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[DirtyGoldMan]

It is because they are in such terrible surface condition from the ravages of time at the bottom of the sea that it is beyond reason to place these coins in a graded holder without reducing the credibility and marginalizing the coins that have already been graded.

[e1cnr]

marketing for fullest retail

[cpm9ball]

"MS Details - Shipwreck Effect"

 

Is that better?

 

Chris

[jimjum12]

The ones I see on Heritage look to have nice detail but unnaturally white.....but no reference to cleaning. I had thought maybe there were so many that the cost to grade all would be be prohibitive.....they seem to fetch consistant prices. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[BillJones]

Shipwreck recovery coins are really problem coins, just like the pieces one digs out of the ground after you have found them with a metal detector. Like all problem coins they are really only capable of receiving net grades which gets into the issue of how much the damage lowers grade below the sharpness grade.

 

I've never understood this market where really ugly shipwreck coins go for prices that are far higher than their no problem counterparts. The marketers put these pieces in fancy wooden boxes and have all sorts of documentation along with a certification slab around the piece, but in the end they are just damaged coins. Yet these pieces have asking prices on them that run into the thousands of dollars. I just don't get it.

[brg5658]

Shipwreck recovery coins are really problem coins, just like the pieces one digs out of the ground after you have found them with a metal detector. Like all problem coins they are really only capable of receiving net grades which gets into the issue of how much the damage lowers grade below the sharpness grade.

 

I've never understood this market where really ugly shipwreck coins go for prices that are far higher than their no problem counterparts. The marketers put these pieces in fancy wooden boxes and have all sorts of documentation along with a certification slab around the piece, but in the end they are just damaged coins. Yet these pieces have asking prices on them that run into the thousands of dollars. I just don't get it.

 

+1

 

I agree with Bill completely. I'd personally much rather have a VF problem free coin than a "MS Details -- Salt water effect" salvaged coin.

[cpm9ball]

Shipwreck recovery coins are really problem coins, just like the pieces one digs out of the ground after you have found them with a metal detector. Like all problem coins they are really only capable of receiving net grades which gets into the issue of how much the damage lowers grade below the sharpness grade.

 

I've never understood this market where really ugly shipwreck coins go for prices that are far higher than their no problem counterparts. The marketers put these pieces in fancy wooden boxes and have all sorts of documentation along with a certification slab around the piece, but in the end they are just damaged coins. Yet these pieces have asking prices on them that run into the thousands of dollars. I just don't get it.

 

+1

 

I agree with Bill completely. I'd personally much rather have a VF problem free coin than a "MS Details -- Salt water effect" salvaged coin.

 

I vaguely recall an episode on Pawn Stars where a man brought in a "clump" of silver coins that supposedly came from a shipwreck in the Indian Ocean. The coins were from the period of the reign of Shah Jahan who built the Taj Mahal in honor of his third wife.

 

Apparently, the coins came to rest on the ocean floor on one of the cannons, and although the outer layer of coins had turned black and fused together, those encased inside were nearly pristine.

 

Chris

[RWB]

PS: It's not "shipwreck effect." Neither the ship nor the wreck affected the coins. It is "saltwater corrosion."

[Conder101]

One of the reasons is because at the time the slabbed the SS Republic coins NGC was not doing detail grading. In fact they weren't even slabbing problem coins. the SS Republic were some of if not the first NGC slabbed problem coins.

 

The Goldbergs sold one in their Pre-Long Beach sale yesterday whic was one of the best ones I've seen. Still here is the link, follow it and put your cursor over the coin to get the magnified image and LOOK at the surfaces. As Roger says, it isn't Shipwreck Effect, it's saltwater corrosion.

 

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=72&lot=697

 

Remember this is one of the BEST I've seen.

[cpm9ball]

One of the reasons is because at the time the slabbed the SS Republic coins NGC was not doing detail grading. In fact they weren't even slabbing problem coins. the SS Republic were some of if not the first NGC slabbed problem coins.

 

The Goldbergs sold one in their Pre-Long Beach sale yesterday whic was one of the best ones I've seen. Still here is the link, follow it and put your cursor over the coin to get the magnified image and LOOK at the surfaces. As Roger says, it isn't Shipwreck Effect, it's saltwater corrosion.

 

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=72&lot=697

 

Remember this is one of the BEST I've seen.

 

But, "Saltwater Corrosion" on the insert won't help to sell the coins, and I doubt that Odyssey Marine would have liked that. To the uninformed collector, "Shipwreck Effect" has a very nice sound to it............just like "First Strike" and "Early Releases".

 

Chris

[RWB]

"Santy Claus"

[mtnstyne]

It appeals to pirates...argh!

[wdrob]

I don't understand why a great many people discount salvaged shipwreck coins when the amount of history and the impact that they had in shaping our nation is, in many cases, far more intriguing and critical than the run of the mill Morgan Dollar that many will vigorously seek to acquire.

 

I don't sit in front of the TV glued to QVC waiting for the next salvaged coins to be presented for sell (never bought a coin or anything from an infomercial or shopping channel) but I do own a couple from The Hunter (El Cazador) and I have found that I experience far more enjoyment from imagining just what the life must have been like on those ships back in that time and just what our founding fathers were struggling with in regards to our newly acquired independence.

 

The Revolutionary War for Independence ended in 1783 and I hold in my hand a coin that's intent was critical and the downing of this ship forever changed how this nation would continue to grow and acquire more land.

 

Do that with a Morgan.

 

For a 230 year old coin that was laying at the bottom of the ocean at over 300 feet for more than 200 years I don't mind a little 'cleaning' and 'conservation'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess to each his own.

 

 

 

[Coindude]

I believe the reason they aren't graded is because of the Environmental Damage that it received while it was in the ocean. It's the same as a dug up coin, it has ED and will at best get in a details or genuine holder. Same for these.

[wdrob]

 

No they have a completely different scale for grading shipwrecked salvadge and it can be found here: http://www.ngccoin.com/shipwreck-coin-certification/shipwreck-effect-designation.aspx

 

I was referring more to the stigma attached to the 'Shipwreck Effect'. I find that some of the folks here turn their nose up at the coins and totally discount what they actually have to offer in way of historical value.

 

You know, if they were to take a trip to Normandy and walk the beach and found an M-14 that suffered from terribly bad environmentally damaged they would more than likely spend a fortune having it restored. Why? Because of the historic value, which in fact to some, just can't have a price tag placed upon it.

 

Yet a coin ..... well that is just a entirely different animal there. You present a coin that has been historically preserved and conservation applied in an acceptable manner by professionals and the arrogance remains with some that the piece of scrap will never be more than just that; a piece of scrap metal.

[Conder101]

Yet a coin ..... well that is just a entirely different animal there. You present a coin that has been historically preserved and conservation applied in an acceptable manner by professionals and the arrogance remains with some that the piece of scrap will never be more than just that; a piece of scrap metal.

This is true but in my personal opinion this is because a great number of these people are only concerned with the physical appearance of the coin and future sale price. They have very little interest in the historical significance of the coin. Among those who DO concern themselves with the history and story behind the coin understand that the coins will look like they do and we accept them for what they are, an historical artifact. Our only problem with them is that they are overhyped and over priced.

[RWB]

Damaged. Interesting, but damaged.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Some of them do appeal to the imagination, some of the greatest works of literature are based in the sea or an odyssey on the watery part of the globe. A great deal of money is getting made around that type of promotion. Certainly the population figures have exploded for type I $20 gold and the prices came down quite a bit, not much in those hoards in the way of original or "dirty" gold. Maybe even more so with the silver and I doubt that copper coins survived salt water effects.

[coinman1794]

I've wanted an SS Republic 1861-O SLH and have noticed they don't have grades OR details. Why is this ? GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Salt water and sand have eroded the surfaces, making them problem coins. Virtually all shipwreck coins have been conserved to remove contaminants. Additionally, it is often not possible to tell if they had any wear on them before they were etched by the sea. It is necessary for the coins to be encapsulated, nevertheless, to certify their pedigree and authenticity.

[wdrob]

Well given that they, meaning NGC, do in fact grade shipwrecked coins under a different scale as is listed in that link I provided above I wonder if anyone knows how you go about getting it graded.

 

I have that particular 8R that is pictured above and it is in a NGC holder.

 

 

But as you can see there is not a grade usng that grading system. Does anyone know what the cost and type of service it would be to actually get a grade on that coin?

 

I searched through the services and if it was in there then I missed it.

[BillJones]

I'll buy a shipwreck coin if it looks decent. I have two that I know of in my collection. Both were probably in the middle of pile and were protected from the sandpaper like action of the ocean floor. Here they are.

 

1654 Spanish 8 reale cob.

 

 

1857-S SS Central America double eagle

 

[BillJones]

I don't understand why a great many people discount salvaged shipwreck coins when the amount of history and the impact that they had in shaping our nation is ...

 

I understand your position to a point. BUT when the price of a "no name" sea salvage coin is a hundred or a few hundred bucks, and the price of a "name," ugly sea salvage coin is $3 or $4 thousand or more with a piece of paper and wooden casket, I think that you over paying by a massive amount of money.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Well given that they, meaning NGC, do in fact grade shipwrecked coins under a different scale as is listed in that link I provided above I wonder if anyone knows how you go about getting it graded.

 

I have that particular 8R that is pictured above and it is in a NGC holder.

 

 

But as you can see there is not a grade usng that grading system. Does anyone know what the cost and type of service it would be to actually get a grade on that coin?

 

I searched through the services and if it was in there then I missed it.

 

I think it is the same price tier as other world and US coins.

 

Kind of amazing that as much detail remains on these coins, and with the gold in many cases they get high grades after conservation. I never saw a presentation on how that is done.

 

So with the thousands of coins that have been resting in Davy Jones' locker, between the devil and the deep blue sea, waiting for the technological sea changes that made the salvaging of all these coins possible, you've got to be impressed with how they all have been so successfully marketed as well as the gold bars that sold for multiples of gold content in many cases.

 

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

 

I have another one here but it is not in great shape at all. Can't even determine the date if I didn't already know where it cam from.

 

I was also thinking that they may just treat the slabbed one as a re slab but this time with a grade but I won't hold my breath on that. I will have to ask them about it it would seem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is all I have are those two. Would love some of that gold too.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Kind of amazing that as much detail remains on these coins, and with the gold in many cases they get high grades after conservation. I never saw a presentation on how that is done.

 

Detail is one thing; luster is another. Gold coins that are not pretected from moving seawater might have as much detail as a Mint State coin, but they can also be very dull with what is almost like a matte finish. Once a coin's mint luster is gone, it can no longer be graded Mint State. If the mint luster is totally gone because it is a sea salvage piece, it should not be graded AU because an AU must have mint luster.

 

On the SS Central America the coins were stacked in wood boxes. Although the boxes disintegrated in the seawater, the stacks survived with protected the obverse and reverse of many coins. That's why many of them were so nice after the conservation process.

 

As for the conservation process that involves soaking the coins in a solution for a period of time. Sometimes it works and the coin is stable, and sometimes the coin goes bad over time. That is why it is best to delay buying such coins for a decade or so. I've seen some of these coins that toned to really ugly proportions.

 

[World Colonial]

I don't understand why a great many people discount salvaged shipwreck coins when the amount of history and the impact that they had in shaping our nation is ...

 

I understand your position to a point. BUT when the price of a "no name" sea salvage coin is a hundred or a few hundred bucks, and the price of a "name," ugly sea salvage coin is $3 or $4 thousand or more with a piece of paper and wooden casket, I think that you over paying by a massive amount of money.

 

What I would like to know is, what history? And yes, this is a rhetorical question because I am familiar with these coins and others like them.

 

As far as I am concerned, pointing to the history as the appeal for most coins is a rationalization because there is little or in most instances, zero actual history associated with these or any coins. Not history of any real significance.

 

There are some coins with direct significant historical linkages but only a few actually. The most prominent examples to me are the Jewish Revolt coinage of 66-70 CE. Next would be some of the Roman coins (commemoratives by today's definition) and others like them. But coins like these, there isn't any real history except that they were minted or circulated in a particular era. And being loaded onto one of numerous ships which sank to the bottom of the ocean is not really that significant either.

 

So since there isn't, why would there be an expectation that someone would prefer a coin which is damaged over one which is not?

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't understand why a great many people discount salvaged shipwreck coins when the amount of history and the impact that they had in shaping our nation is, in many cases, far more intriguing and critical than the run of the mill Morgan Dollar that many will vigorously seek to acquire. ...

I guess to each his own.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. In my experience, shipwreck coins routinely bring a lot more on the market than common Morgan dollars, and are not actually "discounted" at all by comparison to them, in general. Of course, some folks (such as myself) don't collect them and wouldn't pay over melt for a shipwreck coin, but the same is true of folks who don't collector Morgan dollars.

[Conder101]

As far as I am concerned, pointing to the history as the appeal for most coins is a rationalization because there is little or in most instances, zero actual history associated with these or any coins. Not history of any real significance.

Of REAL significance , No. But unlike most coins the shipwreck coins can actually be pinned down to a specific event in time a space, and one which usually has some background story to go with it.

 

All coins are historical artifacts, but can only be linked to general time periods, and other than when they were made they can't usually be linked to any specific location. A coin that CAN be linked to a specific time and place become a more important artifact, even if that event is relatively insignificant. And a shipwreck tends to be significant to a lot of people around the time it occurs.

[coinman1794]

I don't understand why a great many people discount salvaged shipwreck coins when the amount of history and the impact that they had in shaping our nation is, in many cases, far more intriguing and critical than the run of the mill Morgan Dollar that many will vigorously seek to acquire. ...

I guess to each his own.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. In my experience, shipwreck coins routinely bring a lot more on the market than common Morgan dollars, and are not actually "discounted" at all by comparison to them, in general. Of course, some folks (such as myself) don't collect them and wouldn't pay over melt for a shipwreck coin, but the same is true of folks who don't collector Morgan dollars.

 

I interpreted his "discount" to be a metaphorical one. Many people refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy, often saying they won't "pay over melt for a shipwreck coin," when in reality, the market says they are worth a lot more.

 

Granted, the market says they are not worth what the salvage companies charge for them, either.