Why are Shipwreck Effects not graded

[wdrob]

I interpreted his "discount" to be a metaphorical one. Many people refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy, often saying they won't "pay over melt for a shipwreck coin," when in reality, the market says they are worth a lot more.

 

Granted, the market says they are not worth what the salvage companies charge for them, either.

 

 

Yes that is the manner I was referring to discounted. Thanks.

[World Colonial]

Yes, I understand what you are talking about. I just think the importance placed on these events is vastly over rated. It is far more imaginary than real. And in saying this, I am a collector of Spanish colonial coinage, though not shipwreck artifacts, cobs (which are most of them) or in this instance, portrait coinage.

[wdrob]

Hey Colonial,

I have been resisting a response to that about no history and imaginary. I even went through the process of creating an entire post as a rebuttal but decided to save it for later and then just deleted it.

 

I had some time this evening and I felt like writing something, ... So I did. This is the basis of my opinion on the particular coin that I pictured earlier yet I a sure that if one was to investigate most any 'Sunken Treasure' they could come up with some equally compelling historical facts that might change ones perspective on shipwrecked coins. I will just copy and paste from a journal writing I did earlier and if you feel like reading it fine .... if not ....fine also.

 

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The 1783MO FF Mexico 8 Reales Shipwreck Coinage

By: wdrob

Posted: 4/18/2013 3:03:12 AM | Views:13

 

In the early Colonial period of American History the United States (not yet the US) had no mints established and it was common to use currency from other nations to buy goods that were not bought directly from Great Britain. The other national coinage included France and Spain and the Spanish King Charles III had ordered the minting and shipment of this Spanish silver to be delivered and used by Americans in order to further establish and concentrate his power.

 

This was at a time, after the Revolutionary War in which coincidentally these types of dollars helped the US finance, when Spain was the largest colonial power in the new World. Spain held the majority of what now belongs to the US, however, this would have never been possible if this particular ship had made it to port carrying the coinage to strengthen the Spanish presence.

 

The loss of this ship, and more importantly it's silver contents, forced Spain's financial hand and it was for this reason that Spain sold to the French what is now known as the Louisiana Territory. Later, of-course, the French sold this territory to the United States and this led to a major expansion west which would of otherwise not have happened if were not for the initial sinking of the El Cazador "The Hunter".

 

One can see that the significance of this coinage is not just 'mythical' or 'hyperbole' intended to increase sales through a carefully thought out and executed marketing plan. Although the marketing and distribution of these coins may have been questionable ( QVC television type marketing techniques) the fact remains that this coin did indeed play a major role in establishing the expansion of the United States Territory and what is The United States of America today.

 

Ironically this coinage held two historical significant and noteworthy elements. The first; this coinage helped the US gain independence from Great Britain and win the Revolutionary War through Spanish funding and two; the absence of this coinage through the sinking of the El Cazador resulted in the US purchase that resulted in expansion west.

 

For anyone to discount this coin as being of no historical importance is one being extremely naive to it's actual history or that of early American Colonial history. To hold one of these coins in your hand and examine it while bearing in mind that it had spent more than 200 years below the oceans surface is probably only something that a true history buff would appreciate fully. I wish all could experience the wonder.

 

 

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[World Colonial]

wdrob,

 

You aren't telling me anything I did not already know. Every coin has a story of some sort, it is just that most do not know it for most coins because there is no record of it. So yes, in this sense because there is a public record, these coins are "historical".

 

In my last post, I was referring to the significance of the shipwreck itself which is what creates the premium. I agree that sigificant events occurred at the time the coin was issued or circulated, but this is equally true of every or practically every other coin. In this instance, there are many other coins which circulated side-by-side with Spanish colonial portrait coinage and hardly anyone gives them a second notice. Many of these coins have just as much history, just without the shipwreck aspect.

 

The point I was making is that since every coin is "historical" in some sense, it really comes down to the significance of the events for the particular coin. In looking at your write-up, the only difference between these shipwreck coins and others similar to or exactly like them is that they were on this vessel and it sank. That is it. The rest has absolutely nothing to do with your claim because the majority of your write covers events that are not related to the shipwreck at all. they are generic to every single one of these coins of this type.

My response to this actual difference is "big deal" and who cares. If you want to consider these shipwrecks significant, that is up to you. I do not because they are a dime a dozen. When it comes to paying a premium for one of these coins, as far as I am concerned, based upon the prices I have seen, it is a rationalization to pay what I would describe as an excessive and sometimes exorbitant price for what is in actuality an inferior coin. If I wanted this type, I can buy a much better specimen which has 99% of the same history for a lower price.

I have no interest in Portrait coinage but I do collect the pillars. Because the 8R was the only denomination widely used in international trade, there are few minors (those I primarily collect) on shipwrecks. I see them occasionally through sources such as Sedwick's auctions. Invariably, they are badly corroded and terrible looking coins.

 

If the date is scarce enough such as a 1732 Mexico 4R, I would consider it IF the price is reasonable because this is actually a rare coin and any decent specimen is expensive. I would buy this coin even if it looked awful for the "right" price. For other minors such as from Peru which are scarce but only occasionally available, I would only buy it if the coin was a decent one and the for the "right" price. For coins such as the one profiled in this thread, to my knowledge, these coins are not scarce at all. So even if I collected them, there are no circumstances where I am going to pay a premium for a specimen which is inferior to others that are not from a shipwreck.

[wdrob]

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

 

My response was only because you referred to actual history as "far more imaginary than real" and apparently you still feel that it is insignificant in American History. I mentioned nothing in my post about prices of coins. That is irrelevant to the subject of the reply.

 

I have a problem with those that try and re-write history in the books our children are forced to use today and I feel compelled to point out Real History and I leave the Imaginary History to those previously mentioned.

 

 

And I thought I laid that out pretty well. Hmmmm. Oh well I tried.

 

 

[World Colonial]

No offense taken.

 

I look at things very practically. With my point of view, I am looking at the merits of the coin first and the considerations you raised (as I interpreted them) second.

 

As a type, the shipwreck coins are not insignificant though I do not see it in the same light that you do. But my interpretation of this thread is primarily about the merits of coins from shipwrecks (as opposed to the coin generically) as a collectible and most of them by current market standards are impaired. In my last post, I meant to point out that I think too many collectors do not bother to really consider what they are actually buying and how much they are paying for it. So while the money aspect may be secondary to some, I don't think it can be seperated completely.

 

To me, it really depends upon the specific coin. In the image you included, your coin looks like a pretty decent one. And because it is, while I would not pay any significant premium for it, I certainly do not believe it should be penalized in the market just because NGC or PCGS declined to assign it a numerical grade.

 

I disagree with the existing market penalty for quality coins that are in "details" holders or in this instance, designated "shipwreck effect" IF the coin is otherwise a quality one. I have seen more than a few coins from both the US and elsewhere that are scarce or even quite rare that sell for what I consider to be ridiculous discounts to numerically graded coins for this reason, even when the numerically graded coin is really inferior. I understand why the penalty exists (marketability and resale) but I consider this absurd. I believe the penalty for "shipwreck effect" is much less than for "details" coins generically, but this is apparently actually due to a premium for the historical aspects you reference.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

 

[wdrob]

Yep. Good debate. I respect your position as well and I am sure many read this and came away with their own personal opinions.

 

I believe I initially asked my question, on topic, that since they have a different grading scale for Shipwreck Salvage then when they went through the trouble of putting it in a slab why not just grade it. Made no sense to me unless #1; They threw these things in slabs so fast they had no time to grade them and then get them to market or #2; They figured that it will be resubmitted at a later date to get the grade thus increasing revenue.

 

You know I will bet it was for both reasons.

 

 

[e1cnr]

the reason they do not 'grade it' is they are problem coins - although some people like that problem.

 

just like some people like chop marks on trade dollars, and others like counterpunched advertising on large cents.

 

just because people like different things than you, does not make them wrong.

[wdrob]

the reason they do not 'grade it' is they are problem coins - although some people like that problem.

 

just like some people like chop marks on trade dollars, and others like counterpunched advertising on large cents.

 

just because people like different things than you, does not make them wrong.

 

 

Ok