Where are the great uncertified coins?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here is the $144,000 question: Where are the great uncertified coins and collections? Various auction companies offer attractive options for the owners of nice collections and coins. I have seen valuable raw coins offered occasionally by small dealers who submit coins very rarely to the grading services. But just as often I have seen raw coins offered by dealers stating they are high grade when they are just problem pieces that will not grade.

 

So the question remains, where are the great uncertified coins? In Europe and other far-flung parts of the world where the owners have yet to realize that what they have is really valuable? What is preventing these coins from re-entering the collector and dealer world?

 

The largest Connecticut dealer, Sam Sloat, for years would not get coins certified for customers, while Guilford Coin will. Why? Do such refusals to help the owners of the collections get them properly certified act as an impediment for having such collections re-enter the marketplace?

[Raisethis2]

I'm of the opinion that there are 3 types of coins out there.

 

1. Slabbed and certified.

 

2. Raw coins that go from owner to owner over and over to the point the handling begins to show.

 

3. Raw old time collections either in the hands of very old people or their heirs.

 

Of these groups I think the third group is a tiny fraction of all coins but likely the best.

 

 

Someone has all the BU Barber Halves and they're sure not in Dealers Cases.

 

[ldhair]

I'm sure a lot of great coins are being held in strong hands. They don't need the money or care about plastic.

[AnkurJ]

In museums, in EAC collections, in old albums.

 

At this point I'd say a good percentage have been to tpg's.

[johnny9434]

In museums, in EAC collections, in old albums.

 

At this point I'd say a good percentage have been to tpg's.

ill agree with that,

[Arizonadesertrat]

As a class of coins, I'm fairly sure that early coppers (mostly large cents and half cents) constitute the most significant group of raw non-bullion coins that aren't impounded in museum collections. The reason is simple: many, if not most, EACers don't respect the market grading used by the TPGs and the slabs themselves are widely viewed as moisture traps. [Persistent moisture is very bad for coppers.]

 

An additional consequence of this is that many EACers routinely remove recently purchased coppers from slabs, so the population reports for these coins are even more meaningless (if that's possible) that for other types of coins. Furthermore, a handful of specialty dealers control the bulk of the early copper market. When generalist dealers obtain nice early coppers, they typically have to get them certified before they can be sold at retail (if they are valued above a few hundred dollars). Among specialty early copper dealers and collectors, these coins routinely trade raw, even if they are priced at 4 figures and up.

[PerryHall]

Museums, old collections, and current collections where the owners prefer raw coins (EAC collectors for example) are my guess.

[Coindude]

In James' albums!!

[mkman123]

I want to say that each year, less and less good coins are left out their raw and submitted to NGC/PCGS.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Good points by all on this topic. What I have seen with $500 and more value uncertified coins as the impetus for grading submissions is that it happens eventually by chance. At a coin show today there were many good coins in that category that would certify but have not been submitted by registered dealers. There was a raw FH H10c that the dealer calls around AU; there were around AU Seated $1s; Bust halves called MS; an assortment of CU/MS common date gold; and other large assortments of better date coins in the $200 and up value range if grade could be pinned down by submissions to the grading services. What do these dealers say when I suggest the coins should be submitted? "I'm tired of making the grading services wealthy"; another long term dealer said that there was no economic advantage for him to do so as collectors still buy his coins or he has nice certified coins offered to him at current CDN bid, even old NGC fatties and OH PCGS coins.

 

I have seen dealers buy $20K and more "deals" of raw coins which they make a lump sum offer for and subsequently try to sell raw at projected grade price levels and may later get them certified; or they are on consignment as raw coins, and neither the dealer nor the collector want to spend the money to get the coins graded. A NY dealer had a bunch of early Bust gold that he offered at one show raw as AU; I asked him at the next show what happened to the raw coins, how he made out? He said the coins he was offering as AU actually many graded MS! So there are raw coins that can make submitters big bucks. I know one dealer who keeps swearing the tpgs "switch" coins, so I buy his raw coins and pocket the difference between AU (my buy) and AU58 (my sell).

[coinman1794]

In museums, in EAC collections, in old albums.

 

At this point I'd say a good percentage have been to tpg's.

 

Many of these great raw collections are being TPGed at the time of sale, these days. The bright side is, you can always crack them out!

[mtnstyne]

They are all at this guys coin shop.

 

 

he told me he doesn't believe in slabs. And all his stuff has as the old man odor.

[newprepper]

I wonder what the backroom looks like, mean looking guard dog, too

[e1cnr]

There are some older dealers that have accumulated millions of dollars in inventory / collection.

 

They have enough confidence in their grading skills to see no reason in certification.

 

They no longer travel the big show circuit if they ever did, they do not have an expensive lifestyle.

 

 

Get an older redbook from late 60's early 70's and see what you could get for $50K in keys and high grades.

[PerryHall]

When you go to a coin show and you see a very expensive raw coin in a dealer's display case, what is the first thought that crosses your mind? Most collectors will wonder "What's wrong with that coin?"

[mkman123]

Perryhall, I instantly think "Why is it not slabbed, is their something up with it"?

[newprepper]

Perryhall, I instantly think "Why is it not slabbed, is their something up with it"?

 

Just a thought, I would think that the people who can afford the very expensive coins (blueblood types maybe) might not want to spoil a beautiful coin with an ugly slab. I don't know this to be true, just speculating, Its kinda like guns and cars with me, I don't want to own something I can't use or drive. I am not meaning to offend anybody, pure speculation, nothing bad meant by my blueblood type comment. I know, I did it again, so I'll get it out of the way now. I'm sorry

[Hard Times]

Perryhall, I instantly think "Why is it not slabbed, is their something up with it"?

 

Just a thought, I would think that the people who can afford the very expensive coins (blueblood types maybe) might not want to spoil a beautiful coin with an ugly slab. I don't know this to be true, just speculating, Its kinda like guns and cars with me, I don't want to own something I can't use or drive. I am not meaning to offend anybody, pure speculation, nothing bad meant by my blueblood type comment. I know, I did it again, so I'll get it out of the way now. I'm sorry

 

I would rather spoil a coin with an ugly slab that preserves it for the next generation than exposing to air with moisture, sulfur, dilute acid vapors, fingers and breath, and all other factors that occur when a coin is not protected from the environment. This is another factor that in my view should be considered when keeping a coin raw or in a slab. I would like to be around in 2 centuries to see what the condition of EAC raw coppers are in. Those folks absolutely insist on the raw mantra, they even brush their early coppers with a camel hair brush. As documented by noted Conder expert Jerry Bobbe, this results in microlines and permanent damage. Boy I want to keep my early coppers raw and I am sure future generations will be glad I did.

 

I have had a few early coppers in slabs for over a decade and in Intercept Shield boxes, with no visual change in the surfaces........... If slabs were 'moisture traps', one would think they would have changed by now given the reactivity of copper to things that compose 'moisture'.

 

Best, HT

[mkman123]

HT took it right out of my mouth!

 

 

[newprepper]

I wasn't defending, merely playing devils advocate and offering an opposing point of view

[James_OldeTowne]

I would rather spoil a coin with an ugly slab that preserves it for the next generation than exposing to air with moisture, sulfur, dilute acid vapors, fingers and breath, and all other factors that occur when a coin is not protected from the environment. This is another factor that in my view should be considered when keeping a coin raw or in a slab. I would like to be around in 2 centuries to see what the condition of EAC raw coppers are in. Those folks absolutely insist on the raw mantra, they even brush their early coppers with a camel hair brush. As documented by noted Conder expert Jerry Bobbe, this results in microlines and permanent damage. Boy I want to keep my early coppers raw and I am sure future generations will be glad I did.

I have to disagree to the point that much of what you are stating is just plain silly. What EAC member are you referring to who "absolutely insists on the raw"??

 

And, you seem to imply that an early copper coin cannot survive 200 years without being slabbed. That is plain absurd. Where did all the marvelous large cents that are in slabs come from then?

 

FAR FAR FAR more copper has been preserved by EAC handling than damaged BECAUSE of how EAC members care for coins. Again, where do you think all the nice copper came from?

 

To the contrary I think you are shockingly wrong in your assertions. Slabs have ENCOURAGED far more damage to great coins than otherwise due to the blatant desire to doctor, dip and "improve" them in order to obtain higher grades.

 

I would rather have a carefully preserved $1,000 early copper RAW than a dipped/doctored/improved $1,000 coin in a slab, anytime, anywhere.

 

Without doubt, my experience is that the single greatest impetus for ruining great coins has been to muck around with "improvement" for the almighty slab upgrade. It has not been the desire to keep them out of slabs.

[Hard Times]

I would rather spoil a coin with an ugly slab that preserves it for the next generation than exposing to air with moisture, sulfur, dilute acid vapors, fingers and breath, and all other factors that occur when a coin is not protected from the environment. This is another factor that in my view should be considered when keeping a coin raw or in a slab. I would like to be around in 2 centuries to see what the condition of EAC raw coppers are in. Those folks absolutely insist on the raw mantra, they even brush their early coppers with a camel hair brush. As documented by noted Conder expert Jerry Bobbe, this results in microlines and permanent damage. Boy I want to keep my early coppers raw and I am sure future generations will be glad I did.

I have to disagree to the point that much of what you are stating is just plain silly. What EAC member are you referring to who "absolutely insists on the raw"??

 

And, you seem to imply that an early copper coin cannot survive 200 years without being slabbed. That is plain absurd. Where did all the marvelous large cents that are in slabs come from then?

 

FAR FAR FAR more copper has been preserved by EAC handling than damaged BECAUSE of how EAC members care for coins. Again, where do you think all the nice copper came from?

 

To the contrary I think you are shockingly wrong in your assertions. Slabs have ENCOURAGED far more damage to great coins than otherwise due to the blatant desire to doctor, dip and "improve" them in order to obtain higher grades.

 

I would rather have a carefully preserved $1,000 early copper RAW than a dipped/doctored/improved $1,000 coin in a slab, anytime, anywhere.

 

Without doubt, my experience is that the single greatest impetus for ruining great coins has been to muck around with "improvement" for the almighty slab upgrade. It has not been the desire to keep them out of slabs.

 

James, with all due respect, you are predictable. EAC raw folks are extremely old fashioned in their thinking and they are damaging coins with their alleged preservation methods. As a scientist who is a specialist in metals, I can only say that they continue to risk exposure to the elements and not preserve coppers for future generations in the way they handle coins. EAC doctoring methods - camel hair brushes, soaking them in xylol and all of the other things recommended in Penny Wise and the EAC proletariat. You James, have been proud to keep your coins raw, good for you matey. Each time you touch them, you damage them. Each tie you breathe when you hold them, you risk even more damage. Be proud of that I guess if you want, EAC be proud of their way of destroying coins for the future. Once upon a time, I was also believing in the EAC mantra but I don't anymore because I studied the issue and realized the problem with keeping rare, certifiable, old coins raw.

 

Slabs don't doctor coins, they preserve them, humans doctor them, including EAC methods.....

 

Sorry dude, Best, HT

[newprepper]

James and HT, it appears you are discussing a few different subjects, HT it looks like you are under the impression that EAC members do not treat raw coins with care, IE touching them breathing on them etc, you say slabbing preserves, James you are saying that people who want coins upgraded for a slab or better grades dip, clean etc, thereby ruining the coins. I don't think HT is discussing that point. You are both probably more correct in your own points than the other is willing to accept. Just my opinion, I can see both sides, forgive me if I stepped out of bounds by jumping in

[PerryHall]

Perryhall, I instantly think "Why is it not slabbed, is their something up with it"?

 

Just a thought, I would think that the people who can afford the very expensive coins (blueblood types maybe) might not want to spoil a beautiful coin with an ugly slab. I don't know this to be true, just speculating, Its kinda like guns and cars with me, I don't want to own something I can't use or drive. I am not meaning to offend anybody, pure speculation, nothing bad meant by my blueblood type comment. I know, I did it again, so I'll get it out of the way now. I'm sorry

 

In today's coin market with all the counterfeit, cleaned, ATed, tooled, etc coins, why would any dealer sell an unslabed high-value U.S. coin when paying the relatively low slabbing fee makes the coin far more marketable and more valuable? If I liked raw coins I would buy them slabbed and then crack them out.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, with all due respect, you are predictable.

I am sure you mean that as a comliment . It's the UNpredictable people that cause us all these headaches. Consider the ones who crack coins out of slabs, "improve them", then put them back into slabs.

 

EAC raw folks are extremely old fashioned in their thinking and they are damaging coins with their alleged preservation methods.

Sorry dude, but that is where you are simply wrong. IF what you claim were true, then NO great copper coins would be in slabs because... they would all be damaged! How can you dispute that?

 

It is very simple to prove your error, because all one has to do is look at the five finest chain cents in slabs today. ALL of them were owned by EAC members for decades, and subject to EAC treatment. If "EAC preservation methods" were so horrible, so despicable and horrendous in their mangling of these precious coins, then can you please explain how they got into slabs? Are you saying NGC and PCGS welcome "EAC-damaged" coins?

 

As a scientist who is a specialist in metals, I can only say that they continue to risk exposure to the elements and not preserve coppers for future generations in the way they handle coins.

My guess is your "scientist perspective" helps explain why you cannot grasp the concept, then. Coins are made by human hands, and do not abide by the parameters used to evaluate scientifically machined metals. "Coin collecting" is an ART, not a science. It is frivolous and senseless to apply "the scientific method" to art.

 

It is analogous to saying that Pablo Picasso damaged perfectly nice sheets of canvas because he brushed paint onto them. To a scientist, of course he did, but the art world is all the better for it.

 

Slabs don't doctor coins, they preserve them, humans doctor them, including EAC methods.....

FAR FAR FAR more coins have been "improperly cleaned" and "dipped" than brushed by an EAC member. Why does your "scientific approach" continue to ignore that?

 

I'm really not offended by what you say, and I apologize if it sounds like I'm trying to offend you, because I am not. I just don't understand what coins you have been "scientifically studying" that have been so horrifically damaged by EAC members. Maybe if you had examples, that would help?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Good points, James. I know when I see Tom Reynolds' large cents that are almost uniformly uncertified he has taken great care in preserving them.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here is an example of an early copper that is graded by a fringe grading service and offered by a dealer in mainly problem material:

 

"1794 SEGS XF/AU{45} Liberty Cap 1c - S49-R2++ A NEAT CHOCOLATE BROWN SPECIMEN OF THIS EARLY CENT WITH SHARP CENTRAL DETAIL,BUT MOST OF LIBERTY GONE DUE TO IT'S LATE DIE STATE & STRUCK FROM GREASY DIES.REVERSE X HAD MORE SPOUSES THAN ANY OTHER EARLY LARGE CENT WITH 6.WE ORIGINALLY THOUGHT THIS WAS AN S50,A MUCH MORE PUBLICIED VARITY RATED AS R6.INTERESTINGLY,THE AUCTION RECORDS FROM THE FAMED HUSAK COLLECTION WERE IN THE 30K+ RANGE FOR BOTH THE S49 & S50 LISTED AS AU,& THIS NICE SPECIMEN IS NOT FAR AWAY!"

 

Anyone think that NGC would grade this without detailing it? For well over a year Mr. Kleinman has been offering an 1866-s no motto $20 SEGS XF45 for around $10K without getting any takers with other properly certified gold. That is a great coin to buy but not as a problem piece where the market pricing becomes very hard to figure. This is just another reason why we have real, objective grading services.

[newprepper]

Perryhall, I instantly think "Why is it not slabbed, is their something up with it"?

 

Just a thought, I would think that the people who can afford the very expensive coins (blueblood types maybe) might not want to spoil a beautiful coin with an ugly slab. I don't know this to be true, just speculating, Its kinda like guns and cars with me, I don't want to own something I can't use or drive. I am not meaning to offend anybody, pure speculation, nothing bad meant by my blueblood type comment. I know, I did it again, so I'll get it out of the way now. I'm sorry

 

In today's coin market with all the counterfeit, cleaned, ATed, tooled, etc coins, why would any dealer sell an unslabed high-value U.S. coin when paying the relatively low slabbing fee makes the coin far more marketable and more valuable? If I liked raw coins I would buy them slabbed and then crack them out.

 

I don't think having a slab makes a truly high dollar coin more marketable, the circle of people who buy them and the dealers who have them would be fairly small and probably are better at determining grade etc than people who work for the store fronts. The truly high dollar stuff probably does not get seen by too many people in the storefronts, I'm sure some of them may specialize in some of them , but I would guess not much on that front actually goes through their hands that often. Try taking a Ferrari to your local mechanic, I doubt he'll work on it for you

[PerryHall]

James, with all due respect, you are predictable.

 

I prefer to think of James as being consistent. (thumbs u

[Hard Times]

James,

I think we are mostly in agreement and this is a good discussion. I agree fully with you that there are many coin doctors out there that try to improve a coin to get a better grade and that is a terrible practice and is motivated by making money at the cost of damage to rare coins. If TPG's disappear or never had existed, coin doctors will/would find other avenues to increase the value of their coins. So I don't think having TPG slabs can be blamed for the existence of coin doctors. The coin doctors will be there anyway. But I feel that is a separate subject from the one of the advantage of preserving a coin by keeping it in a slab.

 

I will point out again that EACers keep their coppers exposed to air, brush their coppers with camel hair brushes that result in microlines as Jerry Bobbe showed very well in a CTCC journal article recently, and then they douse their coppers in xylol, which by some definitions both of these practices could be considered doctoring. Certainly camel hair brishing is damaging the copper surfaces. Even if the xylol may preserve the surfaces better for a certain period of time, there are still issues there about how you rub it in and the microscopic damage likely resulting. This is what Jerry Bobbe was reporting about, the microscopic damage to many of these great coppers we see from this EAC practice. Yes there are great raw coppers out there in EAC hands, but maybe that is in spite of EAC practices noted above. If I am in error about this, as explained in Penny Wise as their practice of preservation, please correct me. But frankly, how any coin from the early 19th century made it this far with originality is a miracle, and given the EAC practices noted, they are not innocent of some of the damage done.

 

Also, the fact still remains that every single time that a copper is exposed in air, it is reacting, it may be a very small affect, but it is still there. Hence my bias towards slabs as a preservation method. Other preservation methods will likely work as well, for example, keeping raw coins in airtites and in Intercept Shield products. Even those cotton(?) large cent sized coin envelopes use by EAC members work fairly well, but each time the copper is removed from them, it is again exposed to air and if held by ones fingertips there will be incremental damage to the surfaces.

 

So I prefer instead the big plastic slab to put my grubby paws on and keep the air exposure minimized. I want every hope that the coppers I curate now will be just as good in many centuries to come. So I don't agree that in the long run, be it decades, centuries or even millenniums, that keeping coins raw, exposed to air, or preserving with xylol rubbed in by camel hair brushes, is in the best interests of preservation when other methods, such as slabs are available as they are.

 

I disagree also with the idea that numismatics is solely an art. There is science involved, especially when it comes to preservation and understanding what can degrade the surface of a coin. Grading is a mix between science and art and subjectivity IMHO.

 

James, what other preservation methods have EAC members used to keep early coppers relatively original to the present without the use of TPG slabs? There may be something I did not learn when I was a member and it would be helpful if you explained it here.

 

 

Best, HT