Premium for Color

[mikew148]

After spending the last few months observing some beautifully toned coins here on the Chat boards, I have come to the conclusion that I must obtain a few examples. (I'll be starting with a Gem Morgan - MS 65/66)

 

Obviously I'm new to the toning aspect of collecting and value the opinions of the collectors here that have obtained the knowledge necessary to purchase these beauties.

 

Feel free to post any toned coins and what % premium one would expect to pay for them or sell them for.

 

Any insight would be most helpful....Thanks

[dimefreak]

Welcome to the world of color...... You will find things are much more lively in this neighborhood

[physics-fan3.14]

I absolutely encourage you to start buying some toners. They are a fascinating and beautiful aspect of collecting. Unfortunately, every single coin is going to have a different premium, and nobody can try and narrow it down more than that. You can have three MS-64 Morgans of the same date and same slab, with very similar toning and they will all go for very different amounts. Sometimes I think it depends on what color shirt the seller is wearing and if it clashes with the coin.

 

For example, I bought this beautiful coin for about 1.4x over the price guide value (it says $20, vs my cost of $28).

 

 

However, this beauty cost me a full 8x price guide value of $20

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

I'm sorry, physics-fan, but that Kennedy half dollar has too many marks on the face for me to have paid that much of a premium for it. Maybe color does rule for some, but for me very few marks + color are needed if I'm going to throw away the price guides and pay an 8 fold premium.

 

And since I'm not a color maniac, I don’t toss the price guides away that often.

 

I guess if the piece had fewer marks on the face it would have cost you a 16X premium. Frankly I'd rather pay for a drop dead 1964 Ultra Cameo Proof than an colorful piece, but that's just me.

[TonerGuy]

Well, with toners, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and premium is in the wallet of the purchaser...

 

As a rule, physics-fan makes some good points by way of example. You will find great deals on toners if you know how and where to look for raw examples. Killer deals can be had. However, like Bill pointed out, you may pay too much for a coin.

 

Its going to happen... My suggestion is to learn toning and learn it well. Learn it by making mistakes and buying raw and submitting. Learn by looking at all the toned coins you can. And then choose 1-3 series and specialize in those. Learn not only about the toning on those series but also how to price those coins.

 

You will see a lot of people on these boards talk about monsters or moose coins. Those are terms of art that should probably only be applied to a select few coins, but sellers will of course use them to puff their sales price. Once you have studied a series you will know a moose and a monster from a toner and know what the appropriate price to pay or sell a coin for.

 

Education is the key...Without educating yourself expect to pay big money for someone else's education.

 

Good luck and welcome to the colorful side of collecting.

[bsshog40]

And if you're not familiar with the difference between nice NT coins or AT, post here before you buy for advice.

[cpm9ball]

Shane always has a selection of toners on eBay..........

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/kryptonitecomics/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_rdc=1&_sop=1

 

Chris

[MJ]

If you are going to pay a premium for color make sure it's NICE eye appealing color.

 

MJ

[SkyMan]

I'd like to re-emphasize some of the above points, and add a few others.

 

1) The premium for toning depends on the toning.

 

2) Pick 1, or at most 3, series to buy, and learn all you can about their toning characteristics. Over time, as you learn about toning, you can branch out into other series or appealing Type coins.

 

3) When you are starting out, if possible post the coin here before you purchase it, so that we can give you some insight as to AT vs. NT.

 

4) You WILL make some mistakes. Don't worry about it, it is part of the learning curve. What that does mean though is that it is best, while you are getting your feet wet, to not pay too huge a premium for color.

 

5) Only buy coins with disposable income. Do NOT expect them to be a financial investment.

 

6) MOST importantly, have FUN!!!

[coinman_23885]

1. Beware that the toning market is fickle and the market is subject to cycles in what is considered desirable and what is not (although some coins have almost always been viewed as attractive);

 

2. Be conservative in paying a color premium, only disregarding the price guide on a piece that is a "must have" or that will not be readily available in the future. Reserve large premiums for coins that are truly worthy and are irreplaceable or virtually irreplaceable.

 

3. Be careful about overpaying for color. Even when purchasing coins through public forums like eBay, it only takes two bidders to drive a coin to an outrageous closing bid. While this is true of all auctions, it is especially true for toned coins.

 

4. Learn the patterns of toning and the color progressions that are seen on various coin metals, and learn to identify the various toning patterns associated with normal coin storage. This will provide a benchmark that you can use to determine whether a coin is artificially toned.

 

5. The fact that a coin is in a third party grading services holder (even PCGS/NGC) does not mean that the coin is naturally toned, and both services have made mistakes. It is easy to overpay for these, and you will be buried in them.

 

6. Research, research, research before buying! Looking at the price records of several similarly toned coins whenever possible.

 

7. Buy what you like and find desirable, but be mindful that others may not share the same taste and finding a buyer for some coins is more difficult than others.

 

Summary: The toned coin market can be a fun and lucrative adventure, but it is fully of pitfalls for those who are not familiar with the implicit rules that govern the market.

 

One of my favorite toners:

 

[Kenneth F]

To piggyback on other comments... you have to first decide what the color is worth to you. If you find a coin that makes you go "ga-ga", try to find another one like it to compare prices. Also, some dealers will ask the world for a coin but will discuss prices via PMs.. I have done with with many of my coins. Some I have paid a heavy premium, most I paid FMV. There are alot of places that sell toned coins on the internet (Smokin Frogs, Bob Paul, and Heritage..just to name a few).

 

 

 

[CoinPulsive PCM]

These are all nice tonned coins your all showing. I like coins with certain tonning to them. A toned coin is unique and IMO it gives the coin more "wow"

I was wondering if any of the TPG's have ever added something like "monster tonning" to the label of a coin.

-Dave

[dimefreak]

To piggyback on other comments... you have to first decide what the color is worth to you. If you find a coin that makes you go "ga-ga", try to find another one like it to compare prices. Also, some dealers will ask the world for a coin but will discuss prices via PMs.. I have done with with many of my coins. Some I have paid a heavy premium, most I paid FMV. There are alot of places that sell toned coins on the internet (Smokin Frogs, Bob Paul, and Heritage..just to name a few).

 

 

 

 

Is that 79S Semi PL? I find it hard to believe they would give that a star for color

 

thanks

[Kenneth F]

To piggyback on other comments... you have to first decide what the color is worth to you. If you find a coin that makes you go "ga-ga", try to find another one like it to compare prices. Also, some dealers will ask the world for a coin but will discuss prices via PMs.. I have done with with many of my coins. Some I have paid a heavy premium, most I paid FMV. There are alot of places that sell toned coins on the internet (Smokin Frogs, Bob Paul, and Heritage..just to name a few).

 

 

 

 

Is that 79S Semi PL? I find it hard to believe they would give that a star for color

 

thanks

 

Not the sexiest picture of this coin. If you see it in hand, the yellow and red are vivid and shiny.

[Kenneth F]

Here.. picture taken outside on the porch.. tad bit better..

 

[Raisethis2]

I have made a few blunders in the process. Buying Naturally toned coins is a challenge. The one bit of advice I got that sticks with me now is that if the color isn't something you would "normally" see on that coin type, it's likely man-made. That said I've paid 100% more than a blast white version of the same coin/grade but I've always regretted those purchases.

 

 

[Buffalo Head]

I paid $5.00 for this one and received it yesterday. Great color & luster......Joe

 

[SkyMan]

...I was wondering if any of the TPG's have ever added something like "monster tonning" to the label of a coin.

-Dave

 

NGC will add a star for what they consider superior looks. You should be aware that the star can be given for toning and/or contrast. For example a Franklin proof from the 1950's might have superior contrast (e.g. appear more black and white), but not have enough contrast to get either a Cameo or Ultra Cameo designation, so NGC will give the coin a *. Likewise, NGC might find a Morgan dollar that exhibits what they consider to be superior toning and give the Morgan a *. Unfortunately, many coins that have stars are not, IMO, starworthy, and many coins that are starworthy do not have stars.

[USArmyParatrooper]

After spending the last few months observing some beautifully toned coins here on the Chat boards, I have come to the conclusion that I must obtain a few examples. (I'll be starting with a Gem Morgan - MS 65/66)

 

Obviously I'm new to the toning aspect of collecting and value the opinions of the collectors here that have obtained the knowledge necessary to purchase these beauties.

 

Feel free to post any toned coins and what % premium one would expect to pay for them or sell them for.

 

Any insight would be most helpful....Thanks

 

It's very difficult to quantify. The best thing to do is look up closed auction prices for a particular coin (with beautiful toning) and compare it hammer prices for the same coin/grade without it. You also have to factor in that some toning is "prettier" and/or more prominent than others. Placement of the toning is important as well. Attractive toning on the obverse will command higher prices than if it's on the reverse. If the toned coin receives the STAR designation on an NGC coin that commands an additional premium.

 

The bottom line is you need to make what you feel are equal comparisons based on your subjective judgement. Just make sure you're looking at examples for (at least) the same type of coin you plan to buy or bid on.

[Kamillion]

lots of colors around lately. wish i had the fundsssss

[James_OldeTowne]

After spending the last few months observing some beautifully toned coins here on the Chat boards, I have come to the conclusion that I must obtain a few examples. (I'll be starting with a Gem Morgan - MS 65/66)

 

Obviously I'm new to the toning aspect of collecting and value the opinions of the collectors here that have obtained the knowledge necessary to purchase these beauties.

 

Feel free to post any toned coins and what % premium one would expect to pay for them or sell them for.

 

Any insight would be most helpful....Thanks

My advice is: aim a little lower to start off. Roosevelt dimes are an excellent entry point into the world of colorful coins.

[copper toning]

GO BIG OR GO HOME.

 

YOU CAN MIX 1LB OF BURGER WTH 2LB OF SPAM AND FEED THOSE KIDS FOR DAYS

 

NOT TO MENTION FOOD COLOR AND WATER TELL THEM IT IS KOOL AID

 

[AnkurJ]

Start with an affordable Battle Creek. Keep and eye on Heritage. They often have nice examples. The most ive paid is double sheet for a toned Morgan.

[CoinPulsive PCM]

GO BIG OR GO HOME.

 

YOU CAN MIX 1LB OF BURGER WTH 2LB OF SPAM AND FEED THOSE KIDS FOR DAYS

 

NOT TO MENTION FOOD COLOR AND WATER TELL THEM IT IS KOOL AID

 

 

It will look like Kool Aid but taste is a different story. That is like saying take orange juice, mix it with club soda, and you get orange soda.

-Dave

[mikew148]

Excellent response! Exactly what I was hoping for.

Thanks for the advice and the photos were great as well.

 

Kenneth F, I am partial to Morgans so I really enjoyed seeing the 84 MS 65*!!!!!

That is the look I'll be searching for!!!!! Absolutely GORGEOUS!!!!!

 

Thanks again to all that responded.

 

 

[Arizonadesertrat]

If you are primarily interested in toned Morgans, then I encourage you to go to the Jhon E. Cash website--Brandon Kelly put up a nice tutorial on monster toned Morgans (he has been selling these for years), and check out articles/short videos in the Research folder, especially the video clip on artificial toning by anodizing. Ebay is chock-full of raw, AT'd coins, as well as AT'd coins that got by graders years ago (but this is less likely today). Spend a LOT of time looking at images and comparing prices before you buy anything. The most important point: when considering wildly toned MS coins, the technical grade (due to luster, marks, strike...) is much less important that the color(s). In the Morgan dollar world, a toning premium of 5X won't get you much if the coin is 64-65 and you want a multicolored, bag-toned Morgan. For a wild end-roll toner, expect to pay $1,100 or more. The sky is the limit for wild bag-toned coins. Envelope- or album-toned coins will usually bring far less.

[Kamillion]

Start with an affordable Battle Creek. Keep and eye on Heritage. They often have nice examples. The most ive paid is double sheet for a toned Morgan.

 

where do i find BattleCreeks for double sheet?

 

usually i find these to be minimum 5x

[mkman123]

Look at many coins like at websites or shows and buy what you like and what you find appealing.

[lehigh96]

Start with an affordable Battle Creek. Keep and eye on Heritage. They often have nice examples. The most ive paid is double sheet for a toned Morgan.

 

where do i find BattleCreeks for double sheet?

 

usually i find these to be minimum 5x

 

Not all Battle Creeks are created equal. There were thousands of coins in the Battle Creek Hoard and many of them were rather generic crescent toners. The ones with lower grades were simply graded BU instead of being assigned an actual number grade. The higher graded ones were given a number grade but won't drive a premium over 2X sheet. For example, I would not expect this coin to sell for more than $300:

 

 

Now the more dramatically toned Battle Creeks will often sell for 3-5X sheet with the monsters driving 5X+. The closest I have to a monster is my avatar but this example should bring 5X.

 

 

 

[relicsncoins]

Just picked this up on the bay. Looks like a lot of coin for $115 shipped. What do you think?

 

Seller's photos.