Shaking my head in disgust

[Raisethis2]

There's an old saying that applies here. "Buy the coin, not the holder". A preponderance of the evidence suggests the holdered coin to be authentic and if artificially toned, done in such a way where it got past 3 NGC Graders. Since I have no experience determining if AT coins "get through" I'll accept that the coin is naturally toned.

 

The remaining issue (for me) then becomes the remaining 37 coins that seem to have similar toning based upon the photos. The Dealers Consignor told him they all came from a bag of some type that apparently created the toning. The Consignor also indicates the slabbed coin came from the same source. Personally, I'm suspicious because there's no overlay toning, suggesting they were in coin folders. Why 38 or more common pennies in a Whitman folder would tone like that is beyond my knowledge and scope.

 

Since this thread seems to be taking a nasty turn let me try to state the obvious. There are enough voices within this small group to fall on either side of the argument to indicate that it's a valid one to have. Further, the level of expertise seemingly would exceed the average E-Bay customer.

 

If there's cause to question authenticity by this small group, there's an entire other group that is doing the same by simply not bidding on the coins in question, the E-Bay Bidders. I think as a Dealer who's single greatest asset is his reputation, great toning erred by not thinking this one through. It's quite possible the Consignor is a regular and got the "rubber stamp" treatment and equally possible that each and every coin in the listing is completely naturally toned.

 

I think the lesson here is that as a Dealer/Auction Contributor one has got to be ever mindful of the damage that can be created to reputation when things go wrong.

 

 

[dimefreak]

There's an old saying that applies here. "Buy the coin, not the holder". A preponderance of the evidence suggests the holdered coin to be authentic and if artificially toned, done in such a way where it got past 3 NGC Graders. Since I have no experience determining if AT coins "get through" I'll accept that the coin is naturally toned.

 

The remaining issue (for me) then becomes the remaining 37 coins that seem to have similar toning based upon the photos. The Dealers Consignor told him they all came from a bag of some type that apparently created the toning. The Consignor also indicates the slabbed coin came from the same source. Personally, I'm suspicious because there's no overlay toning, suggesting they were in coin folders. Why 38 or more common pennies in a Whitman folder would tone like that is beyond my knowledge and scope.

 

Since this thread seems to be taking a nasty turn let me try to state the obvious. There are enough voices within this small group to fall on either side of the argument to indicate that it's a valid one to have. Further, the level of expertise seemingly would exceed the average E-Bay customer.

 

If there's cause to question authenticity by this small group, there's an entire other group that is doing the same by simply not bidding on the coins in question, the E-Bay Bidders. I think as a Dealer who's single greatest asset is his reputation, great toning erred by not thinking this one through. It's quite possible the Consignor is a regular and got the "rubber stamp" treatment and equally possible that each and every coin in the listing is completely naturally toned.

 

I think the lesson here is that as a Dealer/Auction Contributor one has got to be ever mindful of the damage that can be created to reputation when things go wrong.

 

 

 

This guy gets it!

[Schatzy]

Same here.

 

Question: Has anyone seen a bag of Lincolns opened? Has anyone seen this type of toning come from a bag? I've never heard of such a thing. The story sounds fake. The color looks fake. I agree the seller is making no claims - but a reputable seller of toned coins should refuse consignments that he thinks to be AT. That is his obligation, and will help to preserve his reputation.

 

The story sounds very fake. Why would you have 1 coin graded by NGC and 1 coin by PCGS.

Also I thought some bag toned coin produced 1 sided toners.

 

 

[rainbow roosie]

"Question: Has anyone seen a bag of Lincolns opened? Has anyone seen this type of toning come from a bag? I've never heard of such a thing. The story sounds fake. The color looks fake"

 

Do you know Andy Kimmel (Paragon)? He got to cherrypick a bag of 55s about a decade ago...the colors were totally STOOPID! Indeed, wilder than these pictured by Greattoning...Nature does strange things.

 

So, when you make statements like --"Has anyone seen this type of toning come from a bag? I've never heard of such a thing" -- you display a lack of numismatic experience. Just because you have never seen it, does NOT mean it does not exist.

 

Click on my dime sets in the registry, both proof and mint state...I'm sure you've never seen sets like this either. Does not mean they don't exist?...good example of "wild but real" is my proof 1959 dime --- both PCGS and NGC have graded it.....

[dimefreak]

"Question: Has anyone seen a bag of Lincolns opened? Has anyone seen this type of toning come from a bag? I've never heard of such a thing. The story sounds fake. The color looks fake"

 

Do you know Andy Kimmel (Paragon)? He got to cherrypick a bag of 55s about a decade ago...the colors were totally STOOPID! Indeed, wilder than these pictured by Greattoning...Nature does strange things.

 

So, when you make statements like --"Has anyone seen this type of toning come from a bag? I've never heard of such a thing" -- you display a lack of numismatic experience. Just because you have never seen it, does NOT mean it does not exist.

 

Click on my dime sets in the registry, both proof and mint state...I'm sure you've never seen sets like this either. Does not mean they don't exist?...good example of "wild but real" is my proof 1959 dime --- both PCGS and NGC have graded it.....

 

yawn...... I own and have owned wild coins..........

[rainbow roosie]

and are they AT???

[dimefreak]

and are they AT???

 

 

Have a great day

[Great Toning]

Now you know how I feel

[dimefreak]

Now you know how I feel

 

Richard,

 

Allow me to ask you a question please. What exactly is your opinion about the remaining 37 coins? Everybody here has stated their opinion of the coins.None of us have had the great pleasure of seeing these coins in person so it would only be fair to hear your opinion without a play on words (ie: I have no opinion).

 

Cheers

 

 

[Great Toning]

Now you know how I feel

 

Richard,

 

Allow me to ask you a question please. What exactly is your opinion about the remaining 37 coins? Everybody here has stated their opinion of the coins.None of us have had the great pleasure of seeing these coins in person so it would only be fair to hear your opinion without a play on words (ie: I have no opinion).

 

Cheers

 

 

I don't have an opinion. They are a match for the two coins that are encapsulated. I hesitate to say there is anything wrong with those. The group picture was difficult to portray but the coins are very similar to the slabbed ones. I have invited my consignor to post in this forum and if he does you can question him as well.

[fossilchaser]

Dear toning enthusiasts:

 

I started collecting rainbows at the tender age of six in 1960 when most of the now toning experts weren't even born. I pulled them out of bags at the bank where my dad was a large depositor that the bank wanted to keep happy. I have pulled hunderds of one sidded and a few two sidded out of bags then the well ran dry as the bags dissapeared. Then in 1997 I bought an estate with 20 bags of lincolns, All undated sealed Federal Reserve Bags.

 

When i opened this particular bag the coins on top were all spotchy red and brown. I thought i would certainly loose money on it. My assistant knocked the bag over and while picking up coins I noticed a rainbow, so i started going through the bag. I found 375 one sided and 98 two sided pieces.

 

I sold all of the one sided pieces to andy kimmel. I have sent a number into NGC and PCGS. Every one has certified with no disclaimer. The coins did come out of a SEALED FRB bag. The toning is 100% natural. These are not manufactured.

 

Now, will any of the rest slab, only God knows for sure. We all have seen something that no one else has seen. Toning is an electro-chemical reaction, I have seen various date copper cents with zinc transfer plated on them from steel cents do to electro-chemical procces while sitting in a tool box in a barn for fifty years.

 

Don't through out the baby with the bath water. If any of you would like my contact info , or an affidavit, Just let me know. The one thing we can be certain of is that no one has seen or knows of all the ways a coin tones naturally. I have no idea how this happened. I can only testify to what i have seen and experienced. It is a shame that people with a limited scope of knowledge would castigate another over offering an honest product Just because it doesn't fit thier preconceived notion of how and why coins tone. Some one owes Greattoning an apology!

[Great Toning]

Now you know how I feel

 

Richard,

 

Allow me to ask you a question please. What exactly is your opinion about the remaining 37 coins? Everybody here has stated their opinion of the coins.None of us have had the great pleasure of seeing these coins in person so it would only be fair to hear your opinion without a play on words (ie: I have no opinion).

 

Cheers

 

Jon

I don't have an opinion. They are a match for the two coins that are encapsulated. I hesitate to say there is anything wrong with those. The group picture was difficult to portray but the coins are very similar to the slabbed ones. I have invited my consignor to post in this forum and if he does you can question him as well.

 

 

 

[fossilchaser]

By the way: eleven of these have been graded by NGC & PCGS.I foget the proportion. Also sold 50 pcs to R & I coins for a lot of money. Happy Hunting, May you find all toners you want.

[dimefreak]

My Dearest friend fossilchaser

 

Please forgive me for talking bad about your coins. My knowledge on toned coins is minimal at best. For me to judge the coins of somebody with 50+ years of knowledge was a bad decision. Ya see my sister told me they didn't look right and I agreed with her. I guess two uneducated opinions isn't better than one educated opinion. Thank god your assistant knocked over that bag. If had not knocked it over we wouldn't be giving the chance to own these remarkable coins! If my best offer is accepted maybe I can have them all pedigreed like the Battle Creek coins. How this sound " The assistants hoard of pennys" Kind of has a ring to it. Once again my deepest apologies for questioning your judgement as well as Richards.

 

Sincerley

 

Jon

 

Edited to add: I forgot Richard doesnt have a Judgement.

[Buffalo Head]

Are the dates of the bagged cents the same date as the graded coin, 1955-D ? Or are they random dates?

[physics-fan3.14]

Click on my dime sets in the registry, both proof and mint state...I'm sure you've never seen sets like this either. Does not mean they don't exist?...good example of "wild but real" is my proof 1959 dime --- both PCGS and NGC have graded it.....

 

I have viewed your sets before - and yes, I've seen (and own) coin like this. I'm fully aware that my experience is limited - hence the reason for me asking about it.

[TonerGuy]

My Dearest friend fossilchaser

 

Please forgive me for talking bad about your coins. My knowledge on toned coins is minimal at best. For me to judge the coins of somebody with 50+ years of knowledge was a bad decision. Ya see my sister told me they didn't look right and I agreed with her. I guess two uneducated opinions isn't better than one educated opinion. Thank god your assistant knocked over that bag. If had not knocked it over we wouldn't be giving the chance to own these remarkable coins! If my best offer is accepted maybe I can have them all pedigreed like the Battle Creek coins. How this sound " The assistants hoard of pennys" Kind of has a ring to it. Once again my deepest apologies for questioning your judgement as well as Richards.

 

Sincerley

 

Jon

 

Edited to add: I forgot Richard doesnt have a Judgement.

 

Was this diatribe really necessary ?

[dimefreak]

My Dearest friend fossilchaser

 

Please forgive me for talking bad about your coins. My knowledge on toned coins is minimal at best. For me to judge the coins of somebody with 50+ years of knowledge was a bad decision. Ya see my sister told me they didn't look right and I agreed with her. I guess two uneducated opinions isn't better than one educated opinion. Thank god your assistant knocked over that bag. If had not knocked it over we wouldn't be giving the chance to own these remarkable coins! If my best offer is accepted maybe I can have them all pedigreed like the Battle Creek coins. How this sound " The assistants hoard of pennys" Kind of has a ring to it. Once again my deepest apologies for questioning your judgement as well as Richards.

 

Sincerley

 

Jon

 

Edited to add: I forgot Richard doesnt have a Judgement.

 

Is their collaboration to try and pull the wool over our eyes neccasary

 

Was this diatribe really necessary ?

[jom]

OK, we can go on and on about whether the 37 coins are AT or not.

 

IMO, they are ALL "funny" including the two I saw in the holders. But that is just me. If I'm paying up for a coin it is MY judgment whether or not they are acceptable to me and no one else. The same for anyone else....each should decide themselves.

 

I again have NO problem with GT selling these as he has stated in the listing he does NOT guarantee any authenticity and he also offers money back. I've bought from GTbefore and have sent coins back...no problem. And...AND...I'd buy from him again. Of course, each potential buyer can decide for themselves if they want to do business with GT. That is their right.

 

The only thing I don't like about these threads is the "subtle hints" that GT is dishonest somehow (reminds me of the thread with Julian). I'm not sure how to address that. This goes on a lot over ATS with the "piling on" certain sellers. I guess that just sort of bugs me as I don't believe in many cases it is warranted or fair. JMO.

 

jom

[WingedLiberty1]

I have bought a number of coins from GreatToning ... And I think he's a top flight seller ... 5 stars all the way.

[dimefreak]

Just to make it perfectly clear. I am not saying Richard is a bad seller. I am saying he is human. He made what I and others believe to be a mistake. Selling AT coins is not something we expect from a good seller. It got worst when he decided to collaborate with the consignor try and justify the sales of the coins. Richard didn't get that many feedback by being a bad seller. I was just brining it to the attention of my peers in hopes that he would do the right thing. Its a tough spot to be in..........

[Buffalo Head]

I have bought a number of coins from GreatToning ... And I think he's a top flight seller ... 5 stars all the way.

 

Agreed....

[lehigh96]

I have been paying close attention to this thread and have finally decided to add my two cents. Those that know me know that I am very tolerant when it comes to the AT issue. Personally, I don't get very upset when people buy or sell AT coins. The only thing that upsets me is when someone criticizes another for their actions whether it be a buyer or a seller.

 

The entire debate about AT/NT is very complex for the reasons that fossilchaser mentioned. It is impossible to determine if a coin is either NT/AT and even when we think we are 100% correct, nature will prove us wrong. IMO, it all comes down to our individual definitions of AT. Some think that intent is the determining factor. But again, intent can't be proven. That is why the concept of market acceptability is so important. When the TPG's declare a coin to be market unacceptable for questionable color, they are deeming that coin to be a problem coin. It makes no difference how the color was achieved. Whether the coin was created in a few hours by a coin doctor or created by nature over decades of improper storage, the color is questionable and is not MA.

 

So when people look at the raw cents like the ones shown in Greattoning's auction listing, they really can't criticize the coins for being AT, but they can form the opinion that the coins are not MA. And even though the owner may think he knows that the coins are 100% NT because he knows they came from unopened bags, it would be wise to realize that the toning is not considered MA by the TPG's. Furthermore, we have no idea what environment those bags were stored in prior to the current owner's purchase date. It is an example where there was no intent, but the coins are still questionably toned and are problem coins due to improper storage.

 

And while I respect the fact that fossilchaser has been collecting toners for 50+ years, the internet levels the playing field. It is the same argument that old time professional poker players use, they have been playing poker for decades. But due to the power of the internet, it is entirely possible for a 21 year old kid to have played more hands of poker online in a few years than the old pro has played in B&M casinos his entire life. Furthermore the involvement of a well known dealer really has no bearing either. IIRC, Andy Kimmel was the original distributor of the Appalachian Jefferson Nickels.

 

I guess what I really am trying to say is that there really is no right or wrong on the issue and tolerance and patience may be the real keys here.

[ldhair]

guess what I really am trying to say is that there really is no right or wrong on the issue and tolerance and patience may be the real keys here.

(thumbs u

[fossilchaser]

dear toning enthusiasts:

 

I am glad that the discourse has become more civil. My thanks to all. Toning is a judgement call. Some people hate it some love it. some want only coins that have already been certified.

 

I had a talk with David Lange of ngc at the pittsburg ana. I had submitted a coin which i pulled out of an original mint set which was rejected as AT. He explained to me that the services are rejecting a mumber of insanely toned coins which they believe to be original. When I asked why, he told me it was because of things just like this, people have an opinon and a forum to express it and they'd rather reject some coins than take the flak and have people accuse them of a lack of due diligence. I

 

it is unfortunate that the doctors turn out thousands of coins every week, Frankly getting coins certified is becoming more of a crapshooot. I am sometimes more amazed that a coin slabs than that it gets shot down, but i'm a gambler. I will sometimes take that shot when the rewards are high enough. As i stated earlier. all or the cents I sent in have certified, however I would not be a bit suprised if not a single one ever certified again.

 

The main thing to remember is that there is an opportunity for some one to enjoy the remnants of the group that I was fortunate to discover, and I have had a ball showing them of at shows for the last 14 years, it wasn't neccesary to have them all certified. So if you want to own a part of something that many poeple say is impossible, then take a shot. But in todays environment I think that trying to get them all certified is probably not realistic. Just keeping it real.

[PCcoins]

I've been a buyer and sent consignments to Greattoning before always with pleasing results. This is a consignment, and to me the graded Lincoln looks legit, but it very well could be AT, there's always a possibility.

 

But if you don't like an auction or buy it now, just don't bid on it or ignore it... that's what I do.

[noow]

The one in the slab looks natural, but not the raw ones.

 

Hmmm.. I thought "greattoning" was a conjugation of "great auctioning" . . .

[dimefreak]

The one in the slab looks natural, but not the raw ones.

 

Hmmm.. I thought "greattoning" was a conjugation of "great auctioning" . . .

 

[coinman_23885]

The one in the slab looks natural, but not the raw ones.

 

Hmmm.. I thought "greattoning" was a conjugation of "great auctioning" . . .

 

Please tell me you're joking...

[MJ]

What a joke of a thread.Transparent BS.

 

What a bunch of posturing.

 

MJ