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Put this in your pipe and smoke it DHall

Started by mumu,

34 posts in this topic

robec1347

robec1347

Posted
Posted
I'm lost. What did David actually say?

 

Here is the quote from DH and a link to the source thread from 10/2009.

Here's a little controversy...do naturally rainbow toned Peace dollars exist...I don't think so. Here's what I said on PCGS CoinFacts...

 

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

 

So...I never saw a single Rainbow toned Peace dollar in the 1960s or 1970s, but of course I saw thousands of rainbow Morgans. Perhaps the silver was a little different, or handled a little different. You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
I'm lost. What did David actually say?

 

Here is the quote from DH and a link to the source thread from 10/2009.

Here's a little controversy...do naturally rainbow toned Peace dollars exist...I don't think so. Here's what I said on PCGS CoinFacts...

 

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

 

So...I never saw a single Rainbow toned Peace dollar in the 1960s or 1970s, but of course I saw thousands of rainbow Morgans. Perhaps the silver was a little different, or handled a little different. You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

Link

 

 

I'm just confused how someone could be so presumptuous to state that something doesn't exist when he clearly has not seen even an appreciable percent of the number of coins minted. Between 1921 and 1935, a little more than 190.5 million Peace Dollars were minted. Even if he has seen 200,000 Peace Dollars over the years, that is a scant 0.1% of the total (or about 1 in 1000 of all minted Peace dollars).

 

While I know Mr. Hall is a legend in the Numismatic World, in any other field (especially a scientific one) a statement of that kind would be laughable. Not to mention that, if my recollection serves me, the preference of most collectors in the 1960s and 1970s were blast white coins (I wasn't alive, so I'm just going on what I have read elsewhere). Thus, what he was seeing in those years were likely a biased "sample" of white coins passing through his hands. Nonetheless, it's sad that a single person can dictate in a pontifical manner what is and is not reality.

 

Just my 2 cents...

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

I have mentioned this before as a novice collector in the early 1960's (due to money restraints...on a limited allowance) that I to have never seen a rainbow toned Peace dollar. I did see UNK ones that were tarnished, but they were not very pretty and sold for less than a blast white coin.

 

In the 1970's the coins were still blast white in UNK condition with Morgans the only coins that had pretty peripheral toning. In the 80's and the advent of grading coins so they could be bought and sold "sight unseen" created even more blast white examples of the most popular denominations.

 

It wasn't until the later part of the 1990's that actual "toned" coins took off. As the demand increased and more and more collectors demanded natural toning, the Peace dollars lagged behind due to suspected handling at the Mints that prevented the coins to naturally tone.

 

Your guess is as good as mine how colorful Peace dollars became available to collectors within this decade...something is not right here and though I am not totally convinced that those that are toned, are 100% are natural as it is possible they may have had a little bit of help along the way to enhance the overall eye appeal, but I cannot be certain of that either. A conundrum.

 

I hate the infamous words "Market Acceptable" a blanket cop out statement that pulls the wool over our eyes, but it would appear these Peace dollars fall into this category.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned."

 

I think that the above is a gross and highly inaccurate generalization. As written, it doesn't refer only to "rainbow" toned Peace Dollars, but rather, to "any Peace dollar that has any rainbow colors".

 

There are a great many Peace dollars, which display "any" rainbow colors, which look completely natural and are in PCGS holders. And certainly, not all of them have surfaced only in recent times.

 

One particular and amazing example that quickly comes to mind for me is a 1921, which I first saw when I worked for David Hall in the 1980's, and we handled the coin. I think It was uncertified at the time, but either way, years later I saw it in a PCGS MS67 holder. If memory serves me correctly, it displayed hues of gorgeous red and green (and perhaps purple?). It was easily the most beautiful 1921 I have ever seen.

 

Edited to add: Thinking back on it, it is possible that the coin was graded 66 and not 67, and offered at a big price, based on it's wonderful appearance. I'm just not certain.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
All white Peace dollars are dipped. BRING IT

 

I think David Hall was incorrect for making such a categorical, unqualified statement, and I think you are equally wrong to make a similar statement (albeit one at the opposite end of the spectrum).

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Bruceswar

Bruceswar

Posted
Posted
All white Peace dollars are dipped. BRING IT

 

I think David Hall was incorrect for making such a categorical, unqualified statement, and I think you are equally wrong to make a similar statement (albeit one at the opposite end of the spectrum).

 

 

I think it was more of a statement to get the ball rolling.

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mumu

mumu

Posted
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Posted
All white Peace dollars are dipped. BRING IT

 

I think David Hall was incorrect for making such a categorical, unqualified statement, and I think you are equally wrong to make a similar statement (albeit one at the opposite end of the spectrum).

 

An optimist would call that perfect execution of tongue in cheek sarcasm. But you say tomato; I say tomato.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Mark - has it ever been photographed and posted anywhere? I would love to see that puppy.

 

I have never seen an image or auction appearance of the coin. - sorry.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

Side note: I have the utmost respect for Mr. Hall and his professional attitude for Numismatics, we can however disagree with his opinions. Not that I envy his position, but he has personally handled more rare coins that you or I put together will ever lay eyes upon.

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mumu

mumu

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Side note: I have the utmost respect for Mr. Hall and his professional attitude for Numismatics, we can however disagree with his opinions. Not that I envy his position, but he has personally handled more rare coins that you or I put together will ever lay eyes upon.

 

Agreed, but all the more reasons he should be more careful with his statements such as this. My biggest gripe is that the satement sits there oh so smug on the Coinfacts page for 1921 peace dollars.

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MJ

MJ

Posted
Posted

Truly well toned attractive Peace dollars are scarily seen even post 1990's. This whole thing seems overblown to me. A lot to do about nothing. Chatter. MJ

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted
Side note: I have the utmost respect for Mr. Hall and his professional attitude for Numismatics, we can however disagree with his opinions. Not that I envy his position, but he has personally handled more rare coins that you or I put together will ever lay eyes upon.

 

Apparently he hasnt handled that many toned Peace $ though...

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
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I think that Mr. Hall is going out on a very precarious limp when he states that there are no naturally toned “rainbow” Peace dollars. While such color may not have resulted from government storage methods, which did occur for some Morgan dollars, no one can say for sure how some Peace dollars were stored after the government issued them. It is certainly conceivable that under the right conditions that a Peace dollar could have gotten some colorful toning from the environment in which it was stored.

 

I once owned a 1921 Peace dollar that was in a PCGS MS-64 holder than had green toning. It was not beautiful, but it was natural so far as I could see. Certainly there could be a coin out there which some better looking toning on it that would qualify as a “rainbow.”

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I think that Mr. Hall is going out on a very precarious limp when he states that there are no naturally toned “rainbow” Peace dollars. While such color may not have resulted from government storage methods, which did occur for some Morgan dollars, no one can say for sure how some Peace dollars were stored after the government issued them. It is certainly conceivable that under the right conditions that a Peace dollar could have gotten some colorful toning from the environment in which it was stored.

 

I once owned a 1921 Peace dollar that was in a PCGS MS-64 holder than had green toning. It was not beautiful, but it was natural so far as I could see. Certainly there could be a coin out there which some better looking toning on it that would qualify as a “rainbow.”

Bill, there are, no doubt, numerous toned Peace Dollars out there, which display better looking toning than the one you had.In fact, PCGS has graded and encapsulated them. ;)
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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

I know I saw Shane's Peace dollar a few months ago and it LOOKED like a Morgan from a bag. Spot on. So either:

 

a) It was from a mint stored bag

 

b) It was miraculously "done" in a lab somewhere.

 

Given I've never seen anything like it before I lean HEAVILY toward a). If all of a sudden you start seen many of these it has to come into question.

 

jom

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SPeck95512

SPeck95512

Posted
Posted

He bases his statement on the Morgans he saw 40+ years ago. Perhaps he should age his criteria 40+ years for Peace Dollar toning and we wouldn't have this problem.

 

For example, if he saw an 1889 Morgan that was beautifully toned in 1971, could not a silver dollar from 1929 be beautifully toned in 2001?

 

His view needs to shift as coins do. Colors on silver are ever changing and blast white silver will not stay blast white. Silver is a reactive metal and, as such, will react with its environment over time, no matter what we do.

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Kamillion

Kamillion

Posted
Posted

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370575946146?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649

 

i bid on this rainbow Peace, incase i got lucky. it actually went for much cheaper than i thought it would. but forgot to check up on it.

i see a couple similarly graded ones going for 300+ right now with much time left.

also thought this one looked more, "natural".

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370575946146?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649

 

i bid on this rainbow Peace, incase i got lucky. it actually went for much cheaper than i thought it would. but forgot to check up on it.

i see a couple similarly graded ones going for 300+ right now with much time left.

also thought this one looked more, "natural".

 

That's a pretty coin and it looks quite natural to me.

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Kamillion

Kamillion

Posted
Posted
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370575946146?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649

 

i bid on this rainbow Peace, incase i got lucky. it actually went for much cheaper than i thought it would. but forgot to check up on it.

i see a couple similarly graded ones going for 300+ right now with much time left.

also thought this one looked more, "natural".

 

That's a pretty coin and it looks quite natural to me.

 

i was pretty bummed when i saw it ended. doh!

probably would have bid closer to 150 on it.

oh well.

 

figured i would post it as an example that was relevant.

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted
I know I saw Shane's Peace dollar a few months ago and it LOOKED like a Morgan from a bag. Spot on. So either:

 

a) It was from a mint stored bag

 

b) It was miraculously "done" in a lab somewhere.

 

Given I've never seen anything like it before I lean HEAVILY toward a). If all of a sudden you start seen many of these it has to come into question.

 

jom

 

It is a well known and documented fact that Peace dollars were found in Mint bags associated with the GSA Morgan dollar sale. Perhaps?

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370575946146?ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1435.l2649

 

i bid on this rainbow Peace, incase i got lucky. it actually went for much cheaper than i thought it would. but forgot to check up on it.

i see a couple similarly graded ones going for 300+ right now with much time left.

also thought this one looked more, "natural".

 

That's a pretty coin and it looks quite natural to me.

 

i was pretty bummed when i saw it ended. doh!

probably would have bid closer to 150 on it.

oh well.

 

figured i would post it as an example that was relevant.

 

If its any consolation your bid of $150 still would not have been enough...

 

Thought, It did go for much much cheaper than I expected....

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Kamillion

Kamillion

Posted
Posted

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1925-NGC-MS64-CAC-Original-Colorful-Toned-Peace-Dollar-Old-Fatty-Holder-/370573463758?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5647e650ce

 

this one just went. I did consider bidding at the end. but couldn't get myself to do it. this 2nd one, was near same price like 370, then someone swooped in and grabbed it for around 490

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1924-NGC-MS64-CAC-Original-Colorful-Toned-Peace-Dollar-Old-Fatty-Holder-/370573463766?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5647e650d6

 

i liked the 2nd one better. i think either could have been undergraded. but that obviously was not why they went for such premiums.

 

stunning coins.

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted

The 1924 coin is from the leather pouch hoard... or so the story goes... a couple of rolls of common date Peace $ were found in a leather pouch in an attic and all were similarly toned (as I was told the story - if theres a different version I would love to hear it).

 

You can tell coins from the Leather Pouch Hoard since all their certs numbers all start with 314...

 

The consensus is split as to whether these are AT or NT... I havent heard of one being cracked out and resubmitted so I really dont know how NGC would feel about them now...

 

I think the 1925 is far prettier and without question NT and I thought it might actually go higher than it did. 25s are much harder to find with toning than 24s...

 

And that 24 Leather Pouch Hoard coin isnt even one of the better ones from that group that I have seen or owned.

 

I am often surprised by the premiums toned Peace $ are bringing now...But it is nice to see toned Peace $ catching up with their big Sisters -- the Morgans.

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