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Ouch! I feel your pain.

Started by ultra-crepidarian,

25 posts in this topic

ultra-crepidarian

ultra-crepidarian

Posted
Posted

I have a standing search set up on E-bay to sort out any PF 70 UC Silver Kennedy Half Dollars from 1992-1999. I ran the search and this guy’s PF 69 coins showed up ( an example ).

 

It seems that this collector submitted a group of PCGS PR 70 Kennedy halves to NGC to crossover. Unfortunately, he wasn't too successful.

 

In his own words: "This coin was submitted to NGC in a PCGS Holder as a PR70 Coin. There were 11 other PCGS PR70 Kennedy Halves that were cross-graded into PF69 UCAM Holders I was extremely disappointed with NGC, check out the other Kennedy Halves that were downgraded to 69 from Perfect 70." ... Ouch!

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Schatzy

Schatzy

Posted
Posted

Even if he cracked them out and sent them back to PCGS they wouldn't all come back PF70.

 

and why crossing from PCGS to NGC, when they sell for more in PCGS makes no sense.

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willmsbrg-migration

willmsbrg-migration

Posted
Posted

what was the point of crossing anyhow, they can't grade higher than 70 anyhow...The 1992S Silver was one of 230 at that grade.. This makes no sense unless, he was hoping for 70, didn't get it and is auctioning them off as his opinion on what he thought they should have been.. Stating crossover mistakes is better than saying they were 70 now 69 to garner bids

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted

It reminds me of the time at a local coin show when one of the dealers was knocking NGC because they graded his two 95-W SAE's PF69 and he felt they should have been 70's. I asked if I could look at them, and I could clearly see with my loupe several tiny nicks in the frost of each coin. When I told him I thought they were graded correctly, he grabbed them out of my hand and mumbled his disapproval.

 

Chris

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BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

This story doesn’t seem to hold water IMO. PCGS is usually far stingier about handing out PR-70 grades than NGC. PCGS PR-70 graded coins also have a higher market value. Although I sometimes feel that the difference between PR-69 and PR-70 has more to do with grading politics than reality, it’s hard to believe that this guy would go O for 12 without there being something fishy going on.

 

It reminds me of the time at a local coin show when one of the dealers was knocking NGC because they graded his two 95-W SAE's PF69 and he felt they should have been 70's. I asked if I could look at them, and I could clearly see with my loupe several tiny nicks in the frost of each coin. When I told him I thought they were graded correctly, he grabbed them out of my hand and mumbled his disapproval.

 

 

Most of the dealers who as for my help at the shows are happy to get it, but you can run into a few jack asses who resist the offer of an education. :sumo: The thin about the differences between PR-69 and 70 is that the differences are very slight. If you don't have good up close vision, or if you lack the ability to see the tiny things about a coin, you won't be able to tell the difference. And sometimes there is no difference, which gets back to my "politics" comment. ;)

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Keigwin

Keigwin

Posted
Posted

I don't believe the seller's story. It doesn't add up on too many levels. It might be just a tad more believable if he included the PCGS cert label with each coin.

 

I don't know what NGC's rules are for crossing. But PCGS doesn't allow crossing MS/PR70. Which only makes sense given that the slightest hidden rim nick would lower the grade.

 

And PCGS won't crack and give the coin a lower grade unless the submitter specifically says to do this. The coin would be returned "DNC". I would be shocked if NGC did this without specific, written permission.

Lance.

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Buffalo Head

Buffalo Head

Posted
Posted
I don't believe the seller's story. It doesn't add up on too many levels. It might be just a tad more believable if he included the PCGS cert label with each coin.

 

I don't know what NGC's rules are for crossing. But PCGS doesn't allow crossing MS/PR70. Which only makes sense given that the slightest hidden rim nick would lower the grade.

 

And PCGS won't crack and give the coin a lower grade unless the submitter specifically says to do this. The coin would be returned "DNC". I would be shocked if NGC did this without specific, written permission.

Lance.

 

Just the way I feel about this deal here. This is silly to think NGC would crack these coins out and lower the grade. No way does this sound right....

I believe the seller is full of it....

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
It seems that this collector submitted a group of PCGS PR 70 Kennedy halves to NGC to crossover. Unfortunately, he wasn't too successful.

 

In his own words: "This coin was submitted to NGC in a PCGS Holder as a PR70 Coin. There were 11 other PCGS PR70 Kennedy Halves that were cross-graded into PF69 UCAM Holders I was extremely disappointed with NGC, check out the other Kennedy Halves that were downgraded to 69 from Perfect 70." ... Ouch!

Why would he be disappointed with NGC?? He should be disappointed with PCGS for having overgraded them in the first place!

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noow

noow

Posted
Posted

It just doesn't seem right. Wouldn't NGC send back the coin? He could have asked NGC to return the coins in their PCGS holders if they didn't grade 70. Also NGC specifically says they can't cross over 70's. Also, he could be faking.

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19Lyds

19Lyds

Posted
Posted
0 out of 12 is a bit hard to believe.
Not really since PR70DCAM is a BS grade. It's simply a question of who has the "better" 70's. PCGS, NGC, ICG or SGS?

 

Obviously SGS is out of the question but I think the principle is the same.

 

I'm not trying to slam any of the grading services but you gotta wonder how "standards" can be so different on "perfect". I've seen plenty of PR70DCAM coins which rightfully deserve PR69DCAM and I'm sure lot's of other folks have as well. It's almost as if a 70DCAM or 70UCAM is required after a certain number of coins.

 

Regardless of how you cut it, it's still only an "opinion" based upon experience and skill and not an "absolute".

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted

I don't believe his story. This guy sells a decent number of coins on eBay. The logic just doesn't add up. If he wanted them for his personal collection, then they were already PR70DCAMs. If he intended to sell them all along, then PCGS usually snags slightly better prices on eBay than NGC anyway (rightly or wrongly so - that's not the point). So, why would you pay ~$15-$25 a pop to have them re-graded by NGC before selling them?

 

This looks like seller rhetoric/spin in a feeble attempt to sell his PF69UC halves.

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ultra-crepidarian

ultra-crepidarian

Posted
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A number of individuals have questioned the veracity of the seller, so I have done a bit more investigating and I have concluded the seller’s story is legitimate. I think he is honest although, in retrospect, cross-grading these coins turned out not to be the soundest of financial decisions.

 

The seller, who is located in Tampa, Florida, is an experienced E-Bayer with a feedback score of 4769 and 99.9% positive feedback. He is a Top-rated seller and maintains a store on E-Bay which sells a variety of modern coins (he ONLY sells NGC graded coins). The seller also claims to be an authorized NGC dealer.

 

If you track the 2563613 invoice through the NGC verify link you will see that 12 coins were submitted on the invoice. The first coin was a Silver Eagle (graded PF 69 UC) and the other 11 coins were Kennedy Half Dollars. All of the Kennedy Half dollars came back graded PF 69 UC. In the description area of coin the seller states: “There were 11 other PCGS PR70 Kennedy Halves that were cross-graded into PF69 UCAM Holders”. In actuality, there were 10 others or a total of 11 Kennedy halves. The fact that the coins were numbered sequentially is consistent with the assertion that the seller attempted to cross-grade the coins.

 

You can investigate what the seller buys on E-bay. For the most part the seller only buys NGC graded coins; however, after a quick review, I found some exceptions to this pattern:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290592544750 Aug 14, 2011

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350479015303 Jul 30, 2011

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200633312738 Jul 24, 2011

 

These are three PCGS PR 70 DC Kennedy half dollars that correspond (as to year and composition) to the PF 69 UC coins he is now selling. I think this helps support his assertion that the coins he is selling are, indeed, failed cross-grade candidates.

 

Now the question as to why anyone would want to cross-grade PR 70 DC Kennedys to PF 70 UC Kennedys is a good one. So I sent a message to the seller and asked him why he did that. He hasn’t relied yet. All I can tell you is that the guy seems to exclusively deal with NGC graded coins.

 

Anyway, I still feel sorry for the guy. You can see what he paid for the PCGS 70s and see what he is selling the same coin for in a NGC PF 69 holder. He will lose a pretty penny on this deal … Ouch!

 

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Hard Times

Hard Times

Posted
Posted

The seller is either hyping an untrue story, or he just paid tuition for a hugely stupid mistake. Why anyone would cross a modern MS70 or PR70 coin in an NGC or PCGS holder? One would have to be nuts to think about even doing something like this when you are already at the top, you can only lose or tie. So the story is hype or he is nuts, can't feel sorry for either...... I am guessing hype, he is, a trying to sell 69's after all.

 

Best, HT

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Chris1976

Chris1976

Posted
Posted

They guy is full of it, either that or he didn't read this on the service price sheet:

 

"PCGS-holdered coins are reviewed for NGC certification. Coins will be removed from their holders only if they can be graded at the same or higher than your specified minimum grade. Specify "ANY" as the minimum grade to have your coin crossed regardless of grade. Specify "DETAILS" to cross coins with detrimental surface conditions. NGC does not accept MS/PF70 coins for CrossOver at the same grade. You may not request a higher minimum grade than is on the current holder. Non-PCGS-holdered coins must be removed from their holders and submitted raw."

 

-Chris#2

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Keigwin

Keigwin

Posted
Posted

Only three possibilities I can see:

 

1) The coins were submitted raw, or

2) They were holdered in something less than PR70, or

3) They were PR70 and he specified "any" as the minimum grade

 

So maybe he's not lying. But why not show the certs? They wouldn't be proof beyond a doubt but would certainly add credibility to his story of enormous bad judgment.

Lance.

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