"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[AnkurJ]

By the way everyone, I never mentioned Mark's name when I started the post ATS. I still feel my offer was a fair one and stand by it. All the other costs you are talking about (room and board, travel etc) are BUSINESS expenses that are tax deductible at the end of the year. Those expenses are added on through an entire inventory, not just a single coin.

 

Mark and I have no problem with each other and will probably continue to do business in the future. Frankly the thread ATS got blown way out of proportion. I did not start it there because Mark could not respond, I started it there because I am more of a regular on that board.

 

What ever else you may want to think is fine with me.

[rrantique]

[jom]

To reiterate, the dealer most likely has at least $3000 "into the coin", NOT "$2880". And in that regard, $3000, while not an insulting offer to me personally, is at best a frivolous offer, and at worst, downright silly.

 

Setting the "insult" aside for the moment, I don't really think it matters what Mark paid for the coin. It only matters if he and a potential buyer can come to an agreement. Whether Mark paid $3000 or 35 cents doesn't matter. The coin is worth what it's worth. Period.

 

Whether Mark is insulted that is his prerogative and whether he says that to the buyer is his as well. I don't agree with the latter but that's the gist.

 

I think AnkurJ is right...this has been a bit overblown which is something these coin boards (especially ATS) have a tendency to do....a lot.

 

jom

[MJ]

To reiterate, the dealer most likely has at least $3000 "into the coin", NOT "$2880". And in that regard, $3000, while not an insulting offer to me personally, is at best a frivolous offer, and at worst, downright silly.

 

Setting the "insult" aside for the moment, I don't really think it matters what Mark paid for the coin. It only matters if he and a potential buyer can come to an agreement. Whether Mark paid $3000 or 35 cents doesn't matter. The coin is worth what it's worth. Period.

 

Whether Mark is insulted that is his prerogative and whether he says that to the buyer is his as well. I don't agree with the latter but that's the gist.

 

I think AnkurJ is right...this has been a bit overblown which is something these coin boards (especially ATS) have a tendency to do....a lot.

 

jom

 

Ankur knew exactly what the coin cost Mark in this particular case and that's what he based his $3000 offer on so what Mark paid did matter. Somehow Ankur felt that it was reasonable for Mark to make a gross $120 on the sale and probably closer to $50 net. As I said in the now deleted thread ATS that I wouldn't have told the buyer that I was insulted by the offer. I would have told him politely to go pound sand. By that I would have just said no thank you and closed the door on that particular coin for good. I also in the future would have let him know that my listed price was the only price and chiseling was frowned upon. It is well known that MF works on skinny margins as it is.

 

How about another angle----Let's suppose that Ankur hired Mark to represent him at auction on this particular coin. In this case he probably could have had the coin for a little over $3000 net. However, he did not do this. Mark had to bid for the said Morgan taking in all associated risks with buying a coin. Not Ankur. Of course now he now had to list it and photograph it as well. MF's time and trouble has to be worth. What Ankur truly wants is his cake and eat it to. Everybody has to eat......MJ

[DirtyGoldMan]

To reiterate, the dealer most likely has at least $3000 "into the coin", NOT "$2880". And in that regard, $3000, while not an insulting offer to me personally, is at best a frivolous offer, and at worst, downright silly.

 

Setting the "insult" aside for the moment, I don't really think it matters what Mark paid for the coin. It only matters if he and a potential buyer can come to an agreement. Whether Mark paid $3000 or 35 cents doesn't matter. The coin is worth what it's worth. Period.

 

Whether Mark is insulted that is his prerogative and whether he says that to the buyer is his as well. I don't agree with the latter but that's the gist.

 

I think AnkurJ is right...this has been a bit overblown which is something these coin boards (especially ATS) have a tendency to do....a lot.

 

jom

 

Ankur knew exactly what the coin cost Mark in this particular case and that's what he based his $3000 offer on so what Mark paid did matter. Somehow Ankur felt that it was reasonable for Mark to make a gross $120 on the sale and probably closer to $50 net. As I said in the now deleted thread ATS that I wouldn't have told the buyer that I was insulted by the offer. I would have told him politely to go pound sand. By that I would have just said no thank you and closed the door on that particular coin for good. I also in the future would have let him know that my listed price was the only price and chiseling was frowned upon. It is well known that MF works on skinny margins as it is.

 

How about another angle----Let's suppose that Ankur hired Mark to represent him at auction on this particular coin. In this case he probably could have had the coin for a little over $3000 net. However, he did not do this. Mark had to bid for the said Morgan taking in all associated risks with buying a coin. Not Ankur. Of course now he now had to list it and photograph it as well. MF's time and trouble has to be worth. What Ankur truly wants is his cake and eat it to. Everybody has to eat......MJ

My first reaction and response was: The only thing worse than an insulting offer is no offer.

 

I agree with MJ that I probably would not use the word "insulted", but "pound sand" seems to fit the bill. I do not believe it was the intent of the potential buyer to "insult" the seller--rather a lack of understanding of the coin business (which he continues to display) and a lack of people and communication skills (ditto).

 

I also believe the seller made a mistake by not simply offering his "best price". Had he done this, a gracious buyer would have passed or played and avoided all of this drama. Then again, some folks like the drama, so maybe not.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

For the purpose of Clarity, Logic, and support of Fact, how do we know the Sellers' Price was not his "best price"?

 

Logic requires (of me) that I ask: How does "pound sand" as a Retort rank lower as an Insult than stating "insulting"?

 

The potential Buyer has stated that he would "probably" continue to do business in the future. It is always wise to not burn a bridge.

 

But (there is always a but) would it not be more gracious to simply state that business will be conducted in the future, and eliminate doubt and acknowledge that the interpretation of the original Offer by the Buyer could have been insulting to the Seller, because the Seller knows his costs, tax position, inventory, etc.,and the potential Buyer does not?

 

I am curious: The potential Buyer has stated in this Thread his position concerning future transactions with Ms. Sperber. Were the potential Buyers' words MEANT to be insulting? Were they meant to be a witty Retort? Were the words meant to convey that the Buyer was insulted by the words of Ms. Sperber?

 

I also note that the news this morning reports that Secretary Rumsfeld is "insulted" because of words written in reference to former President Bush, and he has decided to not purchase anymore from the source of the words that were written.

 

Hmmmmm, maybe the Secretary should read this Thread......he then could have simply replied "go pound sand".....

 

Respectfully (always and to all)

 

John Curlis

[MarkFeld]

To reiterate, the dealer most likely has at least $3000 "into the coin", NOT "$2880". And in that regard, $3000, while not an insulting offer to me personally, is at best a frivolous offer, and at worst, downright silly.

 

Setting the "insult" aside for the moment, I don't really think it matters what Mark paid for the coin. It only matters if he and a potential buyer can come to an agreement. Whether Mark paid $3000 or 35 cents doesn't matter. The coin is worth what it's worth. Period.

 

Whether Mark is insulted that is his prerogative and whether he says that to the buyer is his as well. I don't agree with the latter but that's the gist.

 

I think AnkurJ is right...this has been a bit overblown which is something these coin boards (especially ATS) have a tendency to do....a lot.

 

jom

 

...... As I said in the now deleted thread ATS...

 

Mark, the thread is still there.

[James_OldeTowne]

I still feel my offer was a fair one and stand by it. All the other costs you are talking about (room and board, travel etc) are BUSINESS expenses that are tax deductible at the end of the year. Those expenses are added on through an entire inventory, not just a single coin.

I would appreciate an explanation from you as to why you feel that offering a dealer basically ZERO percent profit is a "fair offer". As illustrated in a previous post, it's pretty obvious that the dealer actually has more than $3000 "into the coin", and not $2880 as you claim. Regardless of how you couch it, an EXPENSE comes out of the dealer's pocket. And claiming that the expenses sum to zero because of tax deductions IS insulting!

 

Here is a pretty easy estimate of the cost of doing a typical major show:

 

$1000 table

$400 travel

$500 lodging

$100 food

$1000 salary (five days at ten hours = 50 hours, or a measly $20 per hour salary)

--------

$3000 just to START

 

Let's say the tax thing really pays off, and the dealer manages to get back 15% at the end of the year. His overhead is STILL AT LEAST $2550!! And I haven't even included other overhead items, such as insurance, shipping, packaging, website, advertising, etc.

 

If the dealer manages to buy even twenty (nice) coins, you have to divide up that overhead to $130 per coin, which means that what he ACTUALLY has "into the coin" is more on the order of $3,010, not the "$2,880" that you claim. And that's if he manages to even find twenty nice coins, with is tough in today's market. Chances are, he found more like five or six nice coins, and the per-coin overhead is much higher.

 

So again, I would not characterize your "offer" as "insulting". Yet it was downright silly, and I'm sorry, but it was embarrassing to you. Your offer completely comes across as "lowball".... and without an apology, that is lowbrow.

[AnkurJ]

James,

If you want to get down to the nitty gritty of it, we sure can.

 

First of all, Mark lives in San Diego, and most likely just drives to Long Beach which is 2 hours. So cut down travel costs there.

 

Second, Mark does not set up as far as I know, he walks the floor. So take out another $1000 there.

 

Third, Salary. Do you know for a fact he was at the show for all 5 days?

 

You can come up with any defense you want for pricing and my offer being low. But my offer was based on what this specific date had been sold for in the past. From my quick research, I found that before this sale, the most one sold for was $2700. So I added 10% to that number and came up with an offer of $3000. I dont think it was lowball. Frankly many others I have spoken to have said it was high for a PF 63 and I could buy a 63 cam or a 64 for that much.

Ankur

[MarkFeld]

I still feel my offer was a fair one and stand by it. All the other costs you are talking about (room and board, travel etc) are BUSINESS expenses that are tax deductible at the end of the year. Those expenses are added on through an entire inventory, not just a single coin.

I would appreciate an explanation from you as to why you feel that offering a dealer basically ZERO percent profit is a "fair offer". As illustrated in a previous post, it's pretty obvious that the dealer actually has more than $3000 "into the coin", and not $2880 as you claim. Regardless of how you couch it, an EXPENSE comes out of the dealer's pocket. And claiming that the expenses sum to zero because of tax deductions IS insulting!

 

Here is a pretty easy estimate of the cost of doing a typical major show:

 

$1000 table

$400 travel

$500 lodging

$100 food

$1000 salary (five days at ten hours = 50 hours, or a measly $20 per hour salary)

--------

$3000 just to START

 

Let's say the tax thing really pays off, and the dealer manages to get back 15% at the end of the year. His overhead is STILL AT LEAST $2550!! And I haven't even included other overhead items, such as insurance, shipping, packaging, website, advertising, etc.

 

If the dealer manages to buy even twenty (nice) coins, you have to divide up that overhead to $130 per coin, which means that what he ACTUALLY has "into the coin" is more on the order of $3,010, not the "$2,880" that you claim. And that's if he manages to even find twenty nice coins, with is tough in today's market. Chances are, he found more like five or six nice coins, and the per-coin overhead is much higher.

 

So again, I would not characterize your "offer" as "insulting". Yet it was downright silly, and I'm sorry, but it was embarrassing to you. Your offer completely comes across as "lowball".... and without an apology, that is lowbrow.

 

James, let me play devil's advocate and provide some close to actual expense figures here, at least with respect to the recent show in Long Beach....

 

I didn't have a table at the show. I rarely set up at tables.

 

I drove to the show (back and forth, twice) and probably spent $80 on gas.

 

Lodging, parking and meals added up to about $440.

 

I don't pay myself a salary.

 

That said, I don't deal in large quantities of coins and certainly could not survive on margins of 4%.

 

One thing that has been overlooked, is that a number of dealers might have had a similar asking price to mine, even if they had bought the coin for $2500-$2600, instead of the $2880 I paid. Or, if they had paid $2880, might have listed it for about $3600, instead of $3275. In the latter case, they might have been fine with an offer of 8% off of the listed price, one, which under my circumstances, was completely unacceptable. And have I mentioned that I was insulted by it?

 

In other words, due to a smaller mark-up than many other dealers might have had, I feel that I was penalized. One obvious way to remedy that is through larger mark-ups. But I prefer not to do that, and also try to avoid the typical back and forth in price negotiations. I send coins out on approval and sell them at what I feel is my best price, without being asked for a discount. It's usually a heck of a lot easier, less stressful and more enjoyable that way.

[shirohniichan]

Basically this all boils down to what the potential buyer thought was a "fair" profit for a dealer. His idea of fair differs from the seller's.

 

Perhaps collectors should take a poll of dealers to see what they consider a fair profit on a fresh approximately $3,000 coin. Match the results with the collectors' assumptions and see what the difference is. The bigger the difference the more the offer could be taken as an insult.

[lcoopie]

Dear AnkurJ,

 

Do you think you made a small blunder?

 

Perhaps you spoke before considering what was a fair offer??

 

 

[comicdonna]

Basically this all boils down to what the potential buyer thought was a "fair" profit for a dealer. His idea of fair differs from the seller's.

 

Perhaps collectors should take a poll of dealers to see what they consider a fair profit on a fresh approximately $3,000 coin. Match the results with the collectors' assumptions and see what the difference is. The bigger the difference the more the offer could be taken as an insult.

This is a great idea. I will look for the thread.

[MarkFeld]

Update.....

 

When I get back in town from an upcoming trip, I will be sending the coin out on approval to a client, who just emailed and called me about it.

 

He is aware of current market "values" for PR63 examples of the type.

 

Amazingly, I don't think he was aware of the recent threads regarding the coin

 

If he returns it, I will eat my hat (and hang my head in shame).

 

 

 

[lcoopie]

thanks comicdonna, I corrected my post

 

should have said,

 

dear OP from ATS,

 

anyhow, the original post is now gone, the thread remains.

[comicdonna]

thanks comicdonna, I corrected my post

 

should have said,

 

dear OP from ATS,

 

anyhow, the original post is now gone, the thread remains.

I deleted my post.

[MJ]

Update.....

 

When I get back in town from an upcoming trip, I will be sending the coin out on approval to a client, who just emailed and called me about it.

 

He is aware of current market "values" for PR63 examples of the type.

 

Amazingly, I don't think he was aware of the recent threads regarding the coin

 

If he returns it, I will eat my hat (and hang my head in shame).

 

 

 

But apparently according to others he could buy this for cheaper or even a 63cam or a 64PF. So why would someone buy this from you?

 

Oh, I now see that thread ATS is still there. The OP edited the title out. Between the two sites over 360 posts and still counting on the subject. Slow news day. MJ

[Dudley the 1st]

Dealer has a new coin listed for sale at $3275.

 

Customer inquires about it, and, after being told dealer paid just shy of $2900 for it, wants to see it on approval at $3000.

 

Dealer tells customer that under the circumstances (his cost just shy of $2900 and the coin being newly listed), the offer was insulting.

 

What say you?

 

On another board I commented on this subject. NO, the potential buyer's offer was not fair.

[Dudley the 1st]

Mark, I didn't realize you were the " Dealer " in question here. That being the situation doesn't change my thinking about this situation as I commented ATS, the offer was unrealistic. I haven't seen a photo of this coin, but just based upon the information that was provided, the buyer who made that offer is " lacking " in more than just one aspect of effective negotiations. I'm sure you will do just fine at the current asking price, or slightly short of it.

[MarkFeld]

Mark, I didn't realize you were the " Dealer " in question here. That being the situation doesn't change my thinking about this situation as I commented ATS, the offer was unrealistic. I haven't seen a photo of this coin, but just based upon the information that was provided, the buyer who made that offer is " lacking " in more than just one aspect of effective negotiations. I'm sure you will do just fine at the current asking price, or slightly short of it.

 

Here's an image, though it doesn't show off the coin's deep mirrors and flash:

 

 

 

[Dudley the 1st]

That is one terrific looking 1885 Morgan. To be quite fair, I think your asking price of $3,275, is a bargain price for this coin, and would not blame you for sticking to it, without a reduced " Counter Offer " being made. I don't believe you will have much trouble if any, in selling this piece at your " Asking Price " . No problem at all.

[SWNGC]

The term "insult" indicates that there is a personal/emotional element involved on the part of at least one side of the transaction. Regardless of what the item in question is, there is no place for emotions in business or financial transactions. As a seller, you now know you have a buyer at X, so if you don't wish to accept it, say no, not now, and move on, as you have now established a floor and are in a better negotiating position moving forward (knowing it can readily be turned to X if absolutely necessary). Emotions in business = weakness and, often provide a basis for poor decision making... Just so NO to emotions in business!

[michael]

Dealer has a new coin listed for sale at $3275.

 

Customer inquires about it, and, after being told dealer paid just shy of $2900 for it, wants to see it on approval at $3000.

 

Dealer tells customer that under the circumstances (his cost just shy of $2900 and the coin being newly listed), the offer was insulting.

 

What say you?

 

just saw this thread

 

my opinion this customer/buyer is a tool and a jerk

 

dealer should block him from further deals

[x2rider]

I think that most people that have dealt with Mark know that his markups are tight and I have on occassion asked him if he is sure about the price quoted . I don't buy highend and often wonder that by the time all business factors are taken into account wheather he actually makes any money on some of the inventory

 

Now as for the coin . If it wasn't ( according to Ankur ) worth what Mark was asking for it , With all the publicity it has had , it's got to be worth $3500 easy by now

Have to admit been searching to sock draw pretty deep to be able to come up with the funds for this but it looks like someone else will enjoy it

[James_OldeTowne]

I just made an offer to a dealer from whom I have bought from before on a coin new to his inventory.

 

The coin is priced at $3275. Looking at previous auction records, the MOST one sold for was $2700.

 

I asked the dealer if he had any room, and he told me he paid a little under $2900.

 

So I offered $3000 for it.

 

The dealer replied saying the offer was insulting considering he told me what he paid.

 

Was my offer insulting? Please enlighten me because I thought it was pretty fair.

Ankur

Ankur or a mod appears to have deleted his opening post ATS. It's copied above just for future reference.

[jom]

I just made an offer to a dealer from whom I have bought from before on a coin new to his inventory.

 

The coin is priced at $3275. Looking at previous auction records, the MOST one sold for was $2700.

 

I asked the dealer if he had any room, and he told me he paid a little under $2900.

 

So I offered $3000 for it.

 

The dealer replied saying the offer was insulting considering he told me what he paid.

 

Was my offer insulting? Please enlighten me because I thought it was pretty fair.

Ankur

Ankur or a mod appears to have deleted his opening post ATS. It's copied above just for future reference.

 

You'd better be careful. PCGS is SO powerful they could remove your thread here.

 

jom

[shirohniichan]

I just made an offer to a dealer from whom I have bought from before on a coin new to his inventory.

 

The coin is priced at $3275. Looking at previous auction records, the MOST one sold for was $2700.

 

I asked the dealer if he had any room, and he told me he paid a little under $2900.

 

So I offered $3000 for it.

 

The dealer replied saying the offer was insulting considering he told me what he paid.

 

Was my offer insulting? Please enlighten me because I thought it was pretty fair.

Ankur

Ankur or a mod appears to have deleted his opening post ATS. It's copied above just for future reference.

 

OK, now that I read the original post, I think the offer was insulting. I'm a bit taken aback that he thought $100 was a "fair" profit on a fresh $3,000 coin. If he didn't know how much the dealer paid for the coin I don't think it would have been, though.

[SWNGC]

No offense to OP, but being told someone paid X for a coin does not make it fact, just gives an idea of their expectations (also - saying a "little shy" may mean 2k in their minds and being vague in this manner may be the psychological vehicle they employ to personally reconcile providing a somewhat deceitful response). Also, dealers make bad decisions too, and I doubt there's a single one out there who can say that they didn't have buyer's remorse at some point and would have taken even money to get out of a deal in a heartbeat... If I bought a stock for 3k and could get 3.1k 5 mins later, should I ring the register or wait for the home run? Easy money in 5mins, and the hourly return/dollar invested/expended is huge. Even if you KNOW something is worth more, time can be your enemy as well as friend, but its impacts can be mitigated by locking in profits and reinvesting for another go. Ring and Repeat! Again - Emotions and business do not mix!

[x2rider]

Obviously you don't know the OP and have had no dealings with him . Because you would know that if Mark said he paid XYZ for a coin then he would of paid XYZ for that coin

And as for your share trade . Really . I trade and would never take a profit of a $100 in that amount of time , Its just not worth it

You have a buy/sell spread both ways , your time ( which is not only the time that you are in the trade but the time it takes to research the trade ) as well as all the other sight unseen overheads . Plus the risk . Your a brokers Dream

 

Martin

[gmarguli]

Basically this all boils down to what the potential buyer thought was a "fair" profit for a dealer. His idea of fair differs from the seller's.

 

It should boil down to what is a fair price for the coin regardless of what the dealer paid. Who cares what the dealer paid for the coin?