new purchase .. Merc Dime in a fatty NGC holder and CAC

[jom]

But at least we agree on the likelihood that the coin which was the original subject of this thread, looks better than portrayed in the images.

 

Whoa...uno momento my dear Watson. Why is it more likely the coin photo is worse than what the coin really is? Isn't it just as "foolish" (using your words) to assume the coin is better than the photo than it is worse WITHOUT seeing the coin in hand? It could be either way couldn't it?

 

Based on the slab it was graded a LONG time ago and didn't I just read recently from Mark Salzberg himself who stated NGC was on a "learning curve". Which is assumed to be far STEEPER back when this coin was graded than it is now. So couldn't it be just as likely the coin is pretty much how the photo predicts and NGC jumped the gun a bit on the grade years ago?

 

 

jom

[Walkerfan]

I think that the photos are accurate.....it is what it is. A 72 year old, fully original coin is gonna have some tarnish and/or toning.

 

Many have criticized the strike and, even though this series is not my specialty, I have no fundemental problem with the strike on this one. I'm not sure if it is FSB or not; I would have to see them a bit closer.

 

It also has good surface preservation.

 

Would you guys rather have this pearly, original gem with a little tone or a stone white blazer that has been dipped?

 

Personally, I like it and I feel it has been accurately graded.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

But at least we agree on the likelihood that the coin which was the original subject of this thread, looks better than portrayed in the images.

 

Whoa...uno momento my dear Watson. Why is it more likely the coin photo is worse than what the coin really is? Isn't it just as "foolish" (using your words) to assume the coin is better than the photo than it is worse WITHOUT seeing the coin in hand? It could be either way couldn't it?

 

Based on the slab it was graded a LONG time ago and didn't I just read recently from Mark Salzberg himself who stated NGC was on a "learning curve". Which is assumed to be far STEEPER back when this coin was graded than it is now. So couldn't it be just as likely the coin is pretty much how the photo predicts and NGC jumped the gun a bit on the grade years ago?

 

 

jom

CAC saw it much more recently than NGC did, and still stickered it. So I give the benefit of doubt to their sight-seen assessment, over our image-only based view. You do as you please.

 

[ultra-crepidarian]

CAC’s official statement sent with every certified coin: “The green CAC label placed on your certified coin holder denotes that this coin has met CAC's stringent grading standards.”

 

What does stringent grading standards mean? To reinforce what Mark said see the CAC FAQ’s #5:

 

“5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?

For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker.”

 

So it seems that CAC defines premium quality as A or B level coins. However, I think that most collectors think "premium quality" is restricted to A level coins. I believe that most collectors think that CAC stickered coins are “premium quality”. But CAC doesn’t make that claim. In their advertisement they say: “Only those coins which meet stringent standards for quality within a grade are awarded a sticker. That is why CAC stickered coins bring a premium – they are placed on only quality coins.”

 

CAC sticker coins are not necessarily premium quality coins but you can be assured they are at least quality coins. How can you tell? Well, because CAC only sticker quality coins of course.

 

 

[JIM F.]

I have looked for the other same year Mercury dime year and mint-mark coins in this same grade for sale, and can't seem to find any. Post them if you can, I would be interested in buying them all at what I purchased this one for.

 

Thank You.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Just an observation - in the Stacks ANA auciton of Osburn's halves, the CAC coins were getting significantly higher bids. Were they getting them because they were CAC, or because they were truly higher quality? As with all things, some of the CAC coins were really nice, some of the non-CAC coins were really nice (and, some of each category were not-so-nice). Did the CAC coins truly deserve the higher bids simply because they had a sticker?

 

Case in point - the coin I won has no CAC sticker, and is one of the most eye appealing coins from the sale. It is a very rare prooflike, has fantastic toning, and is from one of the lowest mintages of the series. And yet, I got it for almost exactly what the price guide said I should pay.

 

There were CAC'd coins that were generic looking coins (albeit, rare key dates) that were going for nearly twice price guide values.

[JIM F.]

The 1939-D is not as often seen as one may think.

 

Here is my offer

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5024921#Post5024921

[ultra-crepidarian]

Good points: Remember the old numismatic maxim: Buy the coin not the slab sticker.

[Buffalo Head]

Just an observation - in the Stacks ANA auciton of Osburn's halves, the CAC coins were getting significantly higher bids. Were they getting them because they were CAC, or because they were truly higher quality? As with all things, some of the CAC coins were really nice, some of the non-CAC coins were really nice (and, some of each category were not-so-nice). Did the CAC coins truly deserve the higher bids simply because they had a sticker?

 

Case in point - the coin I won has no CAC sticker, and is one of the most eye appealing coins from the sale. It is a very rare prooflike, has fantastic toning, and is from one of the lowest mintages of the series. And yet, I got it for almost exactly what the price guide said I should pay.

 

There were CAC'd coins that were generic looking coins (albeit, rare key dates) that were going for nearly twice price guide values.

 

I guess what I would like to know is were all of these coin submitted to CAC? I mean how would a guy know? Maybe the one you purchased was not submitted....

[Walkerfan]

Just an observation - in the Stacks ANA auciton of Osburn's halves, the CAC coins were getting significantly higher bids. Were they getting them because they were CAC, or because they were truly higher quality? As with all things, some of the CAC coins were really nice, some of the non-CAC coins were really nice (and, some of each category were not-so-nice). Did the CAC coins truly deserve the higher bids simply because they had a sticker?

 

Case in point - the coin I won has no CAC sticker, and is one of the most eye appealing coins from the sale. It is a very rare prooflike, has fantastic toning, and is from one of the lowest mintages of the series. And yet, I got it for almost exactly what the price guide said I should pay.

 

There were CAC'd coins that were generic looking coins (albeit, rare key dates) that were going for nearly twice price guide values.

 

I guess what I would like to know is were all of these coin submitted to CAC? I mean how would a guy know? Maybe the one you purchased was not submitted....

 

Likely not, as it, probably, would have rec'd a bean.

 

Most sets are a mixture of both (stickered and unstickered).

 

I have only one grean bean but I feel that my overall set is of nice quality. Most collectors don't submit their entire sets to CAC. I sure didn't, although I may have a coin or two done in the future.

[Walkerfan]

Really unusual. I just looked in HA's archives at MS 68 39-D Mercs and recent prices range, incredibly, from 460-2800 dollars and of the 40-50 of the them not one single Merc did not have the FB designation.

[jom]

Really unusual. I just looked in HA's archives at MS 68 39-D Mercs and recent prices range, incredibly, from 460-2800 dollars and of the 40-50 of the them not one single Merc did not have the FB designation.

 

The 1939-D Merc in MS68 is fairly "common" from what I remember. There was a roll or two with amazing toning that hit the market about 15 years ago. Tom Bush owns an incredible piece (that might have been an MS69). I owned one I bought in an IGC 68 holder. A few years later I wanted to sell it so I cracked it out and PCGS graded MS68 and I sold it for $1000. I'd bet there are more 1939-D dimes graded MS68 or above than any other date...it used to be that way anywho.

 

CAC saw it much more recently than NGC did, and still stickered it. So I give the benefit of doubt to their sight-seen assessment, over our image-only based view. You do as you please.

 

Yeah, I've seen the "put a Yellow sticker on any older slab" method used by CAC. Thanks...but I'll pass.

 

 

jom

[JIM F.]

Seem like I have the "ultra rare MS-68 w/o FB" example. Wow.

[Hard Times]

Just an observation - in the Stacks ANA auciton of Osburn's halves, the CAC coins were getting significantly higher bids. Were they getting them because they were CAC, or because they were truly higher quality? As with all things, some of the CAC coins were really nice, some of the non-CAC coins were really nice (and, some of each category were not-so-nice). Did the CAC coins truly deserve the higher bids simply because they had a sticker?

 

Case in point - the coin I won has no CAC sticker, and is one of the most eye appealing coins from the sale. It is a very rare prooflike, has fantastic toning, and is from one of the lowest mintages of the series. And yet, I got it for almost exactly what the price guide said I should pay.

 

There were CAC'd coins that were generic looking coins (albeit, rare key dates) that were going for nearly twice price guide values.

 

I had the opportunity to look at all of 's halves on Tuesday at ANA. Every single one I looked at seemed to me to be graded correctly. As you will note when you view the auction listings, there were both NGC and PCGS, and CAC and no CAC listings. That does not mean that every coin went through the CAC grading process as each was picked out by individually, likely with or without the CAC sticker. All of the halves labels had ' Osburn Collection' on them, regardless of whose slab it was. said that the ones that did not have his name on the slabs originally went to PCGS for regrading and labelling by Stacks, he said some got a point, most stayed the same, and one went down a point. But this is a case where you have to trust the eye of one of the true experts in his field and I say chose fairly graded examples, plus of course, many interesting die varieties...... And most of them were seen by graders at least twice given what he was telling me.

 

Having read all the comments, about 25% of my collection is CAC. All of my CAC coins are outstanding for the grade which has led me to be more confident in buying their stickered coins.

 

Best, HT

[JIM F.]

Just received, and the coin's pictures do not do it justice. The luster is booming, and the toning is muted -- can hardly even see it on the obverse and what is there on the reverse is attractive -- unlike what the picture shows. Also this is in a Green NGC Fatty holder (the pic is so bad, couldn't even really tell that). Which begs the question, did NGC assign FB designations back then?

 

 

[Walkerfan]

I don't know for sure, if they did or not.

 

I'm glad that you like your coin, though.

 

I liked it, too, right from the beginning.

 

The price was the best part!

[brg5658]

Which begs the question, did NGC assign FB designations back then?

 

Hi Jim,

 

To answer your question, yes NGC assigned FB at the time your coin was holdered. Notice that your coin has a bar code on it, so it comes from an era sometime in the early 90s.

 

See Conder101's thread here with a picture of an example of a Merc Dime in the NGC Type 3 holder (much older than yours) that is given the FB designation. There are also lots of FB Mercs on the BAY in holders pre-barcode.

 

That answers the question of whether they assigned the FB designation at the time of your coins holdering, but it still leaves the question out there if your coin may be worth a resubmission for review? That question I can't answer...but given that it's in a curious holder (green label), and that it has the "magic" green bean, I'd probably leave it as it. I hope this helps. (thumbs u

 

-Brandon

[Walkerfan]

Hi Jim,

 

To answer your question, yes NGC assigned FB at the time your coin was holdered. Notice that your coin has a bar code on it, so it comes from an era sometime in the early 90s.

 

See Conder101's thread here with a picture of an example of a Merc Dime in the NGC Type 3 holder (much older than yours) that is given the FB designation. There are also lots of FB Mercs on the BAY in holders pre-barcode.

 

That answers the question of whether they assigned the FB designation at the time of your coins holdering, but it still leaves the question out there if your coin may be worth a resubmission for review? That question I can't answer...but given that it's in a curious holder (green label), and that it has the "magic" green bean, I'd probably leave it as it. I hope this helps. (thumbs u

 

-Brandon

 

This was my assumption but I was not 100% sure only 99%.

 

I, too, would leave it in the nice, old fattie.

[brg5658]

Just received, and the coin's pictures do not do it justice. The luster is booming, and the toning is muted -- can hardly even see it on the obverse and what is there on the reverse is attractive -- unlike what the picture shows.

 

P.S. -- I personally would love to see some more accurate photos. The more photos you can see that are true to the coin in hand as compared to posted auction and sale photos, the better IMO. This particular coin I had looked at probably a dozen times on the NEN (outside eBay) website. I could never bring myself to pull the trigger because of the photo of the reverse. BUT, I'm glad it's better in hand and seems you got one helluva deal. (thumbs u

 

 

[jom]

Just received, and the coin's pictures do not do it justice. The luster is booming, and the toning is muted -- can hardly even see it on the obverse and what is there on the reverse is attractive -- unlike what the picture shows. Also this is in a Green NGC Fatty holder (the pic is so bad, couldn't even really tell that). Which begs the question, did NGC assign FB designations back then?

 

 

Whew...I'm glad the photo was . What did you pay for the coin?

 

As to the FB: Again, it doesn't look that way in the photo but if it is in fact you can always as FB money when you want to sell it. In the meantime at least, leave it in the old holder.

 

jom

[djdilliodon]

Personally id send it in for a regrade. You collect coins not holders! Worst case the grade stays the same. The best case it can get the FB designation, a plus, a point, a star, or a combination of the 4 mentioned . You also get the edge view holder which imo is so nice to view your coins in.

[JIM F.]

Just for sake of conversation....if it got a MS-69 designation what would the market value be on such a coin? What is the pop of MS-69 Mercs of all years?

 

As a side note, Condor's post regarding NGC holders is quite informative, this one seems to be an enigma, it has the bar-code on it, yet it is the GREEN NGC outline fatty holder. Maybe Condor can chime in on that one.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

 

[djdilliodon]

Just for sake of conversation....if it got a MS-69 designation what would the market value be on such a coin? What is the pop of MS-69 Mercs of all years?

 

As a side note, Condor's post regarding NGC holders is quite informative, this one seems to be an enigma, it has the bar-code on it, yet it is the GREEN NGC outline fatty holder. Maybe Condor can chime in on that one.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

 

There have been a total of 5 mercury dimes graded 69. Out of those 5 3 of them are 1939 d's and all 3 are fb. On teletrade one that was graded a 69*fb sold for $7600. A non FB 69 will be at least 1/3 less than that or more imo.

[brg5658]

As a side note, Condor's post regarding NGC holders is quite informative, this one seems to be an enigma, it has the bar-code on it, yet it is the GREEN NGC outline fatty holder. Maybe Condor can chime in on that one.

 

I noticed that also. But, the barcode was definitely an upgrade from the non-barcode slabs, so it is still certain that FB designation existed at the time your coin was holdered.

 

I look forward to Conder's reply regarding this slab though. There seem to be a handful of slabs with the older style NGC 4 type label, but with bar codes like the NGC 5. There must have been some sort of transitory state...

 

------------------------------------------------

 

AS for a possible upgrade to a 69, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that idea. You can take the gamble if you'd like, but it seems a bit like a pipe-dream to me.

 

All the best!

[coinman_23885]

Personally id send it in for a regrade. You collect coins not holders! Worst case the grade stays the same.

 

Not true. While images can be deceiving, the coin appears to have little to no hope of an upgrade. It may very well be downgraded to a MS67 or MS66. I think a FB designation is a farce. The bands aren't sharp enough and fully rounded IMO, and even if they were/are, the tick across the bands counts as a disruption and generally precludes the FB designation. An upgrade would be nothing shy of a miracle. The coin appears to have negative eye appeal. I would think MS66+ to low end MS67 pricing would be about right on this piece.

[coinman_23885]

P.S. If this is the coin from eBay, I saw it and passed on it for these very reasons. Unless you're playing the registry game, I don't see this being a focal point of anyone's collection.

[djdilliodon]

Personally id send it in for a regrade. You collect coins not holders! Worst case the grade stays the same.

 

Not true. While images can be deceiving, the coin appears to have little to no hope of an upgrade. It may very well be downgraded to a MS67 or MS66. I think a FB designation is a farce. The bands aren't sharp enough and fully rounded IMO, and even if they were/are, the tick across the bands counts as a disruption and generally precludes the FB designation. An upgrade would be nothing shy of a miracle. The coin appears to have negative eye appeal. I would think MS66+ to low end MS67 pricing would be about right on this piece.

 

If the coin down grades NGC will pay the difference. As long as no premiums where paid you can't lose .

[MarkFeld]

Personally id send it in for a regrade. You collect coins not holders! Worst case the grade stays the same.

 

Not true. While images can be deceiving, the coin appears to have little to no hope of an upgrade. It may very well be downgraded to a MS67 or MS66. I think a FB designation is a farce. The bands aren't sharp enough and fully rounded IMO, and even if they were/are, the tick across the bands counts as a disruption and generally precludes the FB designation. An upgrade would be nothing shy of a miracle. The coin appears to have negative eye appeal. I would think MS66+ to low end MS67 pricing would be about right on this piece.

 

If the coin down grades NGC will pay the difference. As long as no premiums where paid you can't lose .

It's not quite that safe or easy.

 

The grading company (whose guarantee is being relied upon) gets to determine what the difference in value is between the original grade and the new/lower grade.

 

And even without that consideration, there is the expense for re-grading and postage.

 

Finally, because coins in older holders are often looked at through rose colored glasses, there is a good chance that the coin, with its grade unchanged, would be "worth" less in a new holder.

 

People are entitled to dream and/or play the lotto all they want, but re-grades cost money and are often a losing proposition.

[Bugmann1974]

Just for sake of conversation....if it got a MS-69 designation what would the market value be on such a coin? What is the pop of MS-69 Mercs of all years?

 

As a side note, Condor's post regarding NGC holders is quite informative, this one seems to be an enigma, it has the bar-code on it, yet it is the GREEN NGC outline fatty holder. Maybe Condor can chime in on that one.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

 

The way I understand it, NGC never made labels with green on them. They are just sun faded brown labels.

[MarkFeld]

Just for sake of conversation....if it got a MS-69 designation what would the market value be on such a coin? What is the pop of MS-69 Mercs of all years?

 

As a side note, Condor's post regarding NGC holders is quite informative, this one seems to be an enigma, it has the bar-code on it, yet it is the GREEN NGC outline fatty holder. Maybe Condor can chime in on that one.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

 

The way I understand it, NGC never made labels with green on them. They are just sun faded brown labels.

That is correct - the green labels did not start off life that way/color.