1909 S VDB? What the heck is going on here?

[Bruceswar]

OK so this coin has lots of issues. It looks cleaned. Questionable authenticity, that crack which looks like a broken planchet. If it is real then it has some serious striking issues. Give me your thoughts on this coin. I have some thoughts also but I will hold those off. Also a grade if you like.

 

 

Edited to add those are not my photos.. I do have larger ones, but this should be enough?

 

[coinman_23885]

The mint mark is wrong and doesn't like the "S" that I am accustomed to seeing on examples that I know to be genuine (i.e. PCGS/NGC certified). A genuine piece should have a serif style mint mark, which I'm not seeing here. Furthermore, the rims aren't round, making me think that some sort of crude die may have been used. And while what I'm seeing could be a weak strike, it looks like a real wheat cent reverse was used to create a negative image for a die. I suspect that the "S" mint mark that I'm questioning was added subsequently. It doesn't look real to me, but I'm certainly not an expert by any stretch or means of the imagination.

 

EDITED TO ADD: It does look cleaned; I'm betting that someone was fooled by this and it sat in their private hoard for sometime, hence the cleaning of a counterfeit and/or altered piece.

[ldhair]

Wrong S. I'm thinking it's a China special.

[bsshog40]

I agree, looks cast or counterfiet. Wrong "s", last "9" doesn't match up, looks like not full fill above Lincolns head about 11:00. Also, some pics I've seen have the "dots" past ea of the VDB letters. None here. I don't own one, so just goin by other pics.

[MorganMan]

It is so fake, even a cave man could spot it.....

 

MM

[nunfa0]

It screams Ni Hao to me.

[Buffalo Head]

I'm no expert, that's for sure. But the "S" looks as it's in the wrong location. So at this point I'll say fake coin from China.....

[MarkFeld]

Forget about the mint-mark and the small picture, folks.

 

Look at the big picture - the rims are wrong for a genuine example, the central details on both sides are off, the texture to the surfaces is wrong - the coin looks counterfeit.

[bsshog40]

Forget about the mint-mark and the small picture, folks.

 

Look at the big picture - the rims are wrong for a genuine example, the central details on both sides are off, the texture to the surfaces is wrong - the coin looks counterfeit.

I was going to go bac in and mention the rims also but said what the heck, everything else was off anyway.

[PerryHall]

Obvious fake. Check the edge for "MADE IN CHINA".

[PerryHall]

Obvious fake. Check the edge for "MADE IN CHINA".

[coinman_23885]

Forget about the mint-mark and the small picture, folks.

 

Look at the big picture - the rims are wrong for a genuine example, the central details on both sides are off, the texture to the surfaces is wrong - the coin looks counterfeit.

 

I mentioned the rim and central details issues.

[MarkFeld]

Forget about the mint-mark and the small picture, folks.

 

Look at the big picture - the rims are wrong for a genuine example, the central details on both sides are off, the texture to the surfaces is wrong - the coin looks counterfeit.

 

I mentioned the rim and central details issues.

You weren't one of the "folks" I was referring to.

[Bruceswar]

Just as I thought from my first look. "This screams modern Chinese!" Always nice to post and get other opinions. I tossed out other stuff to add in some flavor to the post.

[KeeNoooo]

I am no professional, but i do own a genuine, PCGS certified S-VDB in XF-45 and it definetly does not look right. i agree with the "s" being wrong and there is differences with the rim for sure. One thing i noticed just from comparison are that the letters just do not look right. The letters in mine are all around even in width and those appear to be uneven. For example, the "O" in "OF" on reverse is wider on left side than on right side, and so on. Just my opinion.

 

Nick

[WoodenJefferson]

Chinese broadstruck?

[Walkerfan]

The motto lettering across the top of the obverse looks VERY wrong. That is what stands out the most to me. Also, as Mark said, those rims are very strange and not formed correctly.

 

Did it fall out when you broke open a fortune cookie?

[Buffalo Head]

Forget about the mint-mark and the small picture, folks.

 

Look at the big picture - the rims are wrong for a genuine example, the central details on both sides are off, the texture to the surfaces is wrong - the coin looks counterfeit.

 

If Mark says it's a counterfeit, it is. That's good enough for me....

[L1ncolnF4n]

Looks to be a Chinese cast example. Try the ring test on it, but I'd stay a mile away from that dog.

 

Over this summer I've come accross a plethora of counterfeit and doctored coins while interning at Heritage. This actually reminds me of a piece that I saw last week. Also an svdb, it had numerous lamination errors, particularly around the date and vdb. We determined it was a genuine 1909 cent that was altered with an added S and VDB.

[VMN-migration]

Absolutely counterfeit and a bad one at that. Here is a file that may be helpful.

[L1ncolnF4n]

Absolutely counterfeit and a bad one at that. Here is a file that may be helpful.

 

Welcome to the boards. That is a great image to help out, I've seen several before but that's among the better reference cheat sheets.

[VMN-migration]

Thank you! I believe that Breen claimed six obverse dies were used on the S VDB, yet I am unable to confirm or deny this. The four mintmark positions shown in the chart should and hopefully is a good-yet-general reference for anyone attempting to authenticate a raw example.