I have important information that I don't feel I can safely release

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't over value my own opinions and I certainly don't think the toned coin collecting world is waiting for informational posts by yours truly to decide when and if to by toned coins. In a nutshell this thread is about me finding out that it is much easier then I always assumed to get bad coins in good holders. I thought that worth sharing even though a thread like this could be self destructive to my collections value and the values of my consignors coins.

 

That's the reason for the cryptic messages....an inner struggle for me to do the right thing and release information that I know will potentially add fuel to the fire of the toned coin naysayers. I have been in a lot of battles and have been a champion for toned coins for years but I can not ignore what I now know to be the truth based on the coins I received. The state of toned coin grading may have been consistant over the past 5 or 10 years....I was just not as open to the posibility of bad coins getting into good holders as I should have been becuase frankly...there wasn't a lot of evidence...proof if you will coming out of the pro dipping camps.

 

So my findings may signify very little to anyone but me....

[jerseycat10]

This thread troubles me greatly. But I will keep my mouth shut.

[TomB]

You either know something or you don't and you are either willing to share it or you aren't. Otherwise, this appears to be a potentially self-serving post.

 

Not sure what your talking about...please elaborate if you would be so kind?

 

I realize what I wrote can be taken in a harsh manner and it was actually not meant that way. However, you set up your thread as a real world situation instead of as a hypothetical situation, yet chose to be cryptic and hold the information close to the vest. This begs the question of what is the point of stating you have important information if you might not be willing to share that information? While I believe your motives are pure, it is possible that someone could set up a thread in this manner to appear to be more informed or influential or better connected than others. That is why I wrote that this type of thread could be potentially self-serving.

[kryptonitecomics]

You either know something or you don't and you are either willing to share it or you aren't. Otherwise, this appears to be a potentially self-serving post.

 

Not sure what your talking about...please elaborate if you would be so kind?

 

I realize what I wrote can be taken in a harsh manner and it was actually not meant that way. However, you set up your thread as a real world situation instead of as a hypothetical situation, yet chose to be cryptic and hold the information close to the vest. This begs the question of what is the point of stating you have important information if you might not be willing to share that information? While I believe your motives are pure, it is possible that someone could set up a thread in this manner to appear to be more informed or influential or better connected than others. That is why I wrote that this type of thread could be potentially self-serving.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

I didn't take it as a shot against me...just wanted to see how you were interpreting my rather cryptic messages as I knew I was putting myself in a sticking situation whereby I would probably have to clear things up by just posting what I was talking about.

[physics-fan3.14]

Shane, I would very much like to see pictures.

[comicdonna]

I don't over value my own opinions and I certainly don't think the toned coin collecting world is waiting for informational posts by yours truly to decide when and if to by toned coins. In a nutshell this thread is about me finding out that it is much easier then I always assumed to get bad coins in good holders. I thought that worth sharing even though a thread like this could be self destructive to my collections value and the values of my consignors coins.

 

That's the reason for the cryptic messages....an inner struggle for me to do the right thing and release information that I know will potentially add fuel to the fire of the toned coin naysayers. I have been in a lot of battles and have been a champion for toned coins for years but I can not ignore what I now know to be the truth based on the coins I received. The state of toned coin grading may have been consistant over the past 5 or 10 years....I was just not as open to the posibility of bad coins getting into good holders as I should have been becuase frankly...there wasn't a lot of evidence...proof if you will coming out of the pro dipping camps.

 

So my findings may signify very little to anyone but me....

It's my opinion that it would be unethical to sell the coins without full disclosure.

[kryptonitecomics]

It is not my intention to "stir said pot" and I really debated posting any mention of my finds but hobby protection does come to mind in a case like this.

 

To answer the most basic question in this thread...I know the coins are AT because I created them 5+ years ago when I got into toners really heavy. I just did simple experiments using silver coins placed in a high sulfer environment (match sticks) and then put them under a heat lamp. The coins did not look legit to me and the experiments allowed me to see colors and patterns that can be derived by this simple method. These are not valuable coins with or without the toning but I never in a million years thought they could get by PCGS or NGC.

 

These coins were sold in a bulk silver lot on ebay and each was marked as Art toning AT so there was no question they weren't legit. I had no clue they would be submitted and frankly from a cost prospective it made little sense to do so.

 

Has that cost perspective changed, now that they are graded??? If so, you should spill the beans. Though, I see this as a slippery slope now, knowing you intentionally toned coins, then sold them (even though you sold them as 'Art' toning).

 

 

I wasn't actually worried about that aspect...I decided long ago that if I was going to talk about AT vs. NT then I had to have a clue what AT coins looked like based on some of the ATing methods out there. I sold the coins as bulk silver clearly described as AT and I have purchased AT coins clearly listed from other board members on ebay and I don't have a problem with doing so in the future as long as there is full disclosure.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

So then, your consignor, provided they were the submitter, is basically turning junk into jewels.

 

I'd refuse to sell them under the guise that you know when and how they were made, simple as that.

 

Or at least offer to buy them at a discounted price and crack them out, dip them and rinse like you should have to begin with.

[JOBESSI]

You're already stirring the pot, whether you post specifics or not.

 

Of course, as much as some of us deplore certain types of coin doctoring, there is no universally agreed upon definition of "AT".

 

I really wish they would. It would save me some $ on "Altered Colored" cents. I've had a couple get by me even after viewing under a microscope.

[kryptonitecomics]

So then, your consignor, provided they were the submitter, is basically turning junk into jewels.

 

I'd refuse to sell them under the guise that you know when and how they were made, simple as that.

 

Or at least offer to buy them at a discounted price and crack them out, dip them and rinse like you should have to begin with.

 

 

I don't own dip...never have and never will.....but I agree that I can't sell the coins that I know for sure were AT'd so they will go back to the consignor.

[jom]

I just viewed a DVD from the ANA library where Bob Campbell shows a "collage" of coins from a recent auction (this vid was from 2005 or so) that he states were all AT and all were certified by NGC or PCGS. "The coin doctors have been active" was his comment. The DVD itself was not really about AT but still...Bob has raised quite a stir about this for years. It really goes back to a Spring ANA in Michigan (I think) in 1995 or so where he did a presentation actually showing the holders and claiming the coins were AT and discussing why.

 

Anyways, I don't know what anyone thinks of Campbell now. Is he right? Or is he a crackpot? I dunno...whatever the case he did bring it up to the forefront and there was discussion. So I think it might be a good idea for kryptonitecomics to show what he has because in the long run it helps everyone...

 

Just my

 

jom

[JOBESSI]

Oh, and I think it shows character that Kryptonite would come out with this info, especially since he sells a lot of toned coins. To me, it shows honesty, which I can definitely respect.

[mtnstyne]

Can you post pics if it is not an ethical breach against your sonsigner?

[TheMightyDuke]

So then, your consignor, provided they were the submitter, is basically turning junk into jewels.

 

I'd refuse to sell them under the guise that you know when and how they were made, simple as that.

 

Or at least offer to buy them at a discounted price and crack them out, dip them and rinse like you should have to begin with.

 

 

I don't own dip...never have and never will.....but I agree that I can't sell the coins that I know for sure were AT'd so they will go back to the consignor.

 

That is why you are held in such high regard, Shane. Good decision to send them back. However, you know they will be sold by someone else, which is why images would be the right thing to do, so those that buy toners will know which particular coins ARE, without a DOUBT, artificially toned.

 

However, you do leave yourself open to, well, you know.

[JCM-Houston]

Personally I have collecting since the 70's, I think most people that have been collecitng for 20-30 years know full well that the majority of these "monster" toners in the market now are artificial, enhanced, whatever you want to call them.

 

The number of these available in the market now simply were not around in the 1970's and 80's. Now if you want to convince me that all these Morgan dollars etc. suddenly toned very bright colors in the last 20 years go ahead, but I'm not buying. Personally I think over time that people that have been paying 10-100 times the market price for the monsters will be buried in the coins. The Doc's can make as many as the market will take, then we may return to the 70's where everyone wanted nice white coins, then the dip comes out.

[kryptonitecomics]

Just for clarification...and not saying your post doesn't have merit JCM....

 

 

These coins are not monster toners and are infact not particularly attractive.

[gmarguli]

.... now I found there is some truth to the statements about AT coins being graded

 

Was there ever any doubt that the TPG grade ATed coins?

[TomB]

I'm a bit surprised that you did not dip the coins prior to sale. You have already stated that they were neither attractive nor very convincing, but it would appear that the best course of action would have been to erase what you had produced. This is in a similar, though of course much less drastic vein, as an altered date coin or counterfeit that is sold into the collecting community in that the piece can be sold by the producer with full disclosure, but there is no assurance that the disclosure will follow the piece around from owner to owner. In this particular instance I doubt your consignor was hurt at all from this purchase given there are other folks who would sell the coins and they are in PCGS holders.

[James_OldeTowne]

Over the past few years, I have come to doubt the ethics of expecting "full disclosure" (as opposed to giving it). We all know that the complete history of any random coin cannot possibly be known.

 

So, which is less ethical: failure to give a coin's history's full disclosure? or demanding it?

 

[Hard Times]

Shane, it would be very informative to see images, as others here have requested. The more images of toning assisted examples that we see, the better I and others on these boards will be able to evaluate potential purchases.

 

Best, HT

[comicdonna]

Over the past few years, I have come to doubt the ethics of expecting "full disclosure" (as opposed to giving it). We all know that the complete history of any random coin cannot possibly be known.

 

So, which is less ethical: failure to give a coin's history's full disclosure? or demanding it?

 

It is less ethical to not fully disclose all you know about a coin, such as dipped, whizzed At ect...

[Buffalo Head]

This is very interesting and I feel compelled to respond in some manor. I suppose ALL collectors should ask themselves this......Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves the dies? I really don't feel it should, in fact I would feel very uncomfortable if it could, or would! `

Toning happens with sulfur and oxygen and is the result of improper care and for all intents and purposes white coins " that have not been dipped " should be more valuable as this coin has been well cared for all of it life as the toned coin has been exposed . Now it's up to the collector to decide what he, or she like and finds attractive, appealing.

We all know coin doctors are out there. And if you read up on the subject then you should know that toning is just what it is, sulfur and oxygen and I don't really care about any sniffer that can tell the difference, because there is no difference!

I own a book it called " Coin Chemistry " by Weimar W. White. If you what to learn, then read. Telling the difference from an "AT" coin and an "NT" coin based on sulfur and oxygen is not possible ! It like Vitamin C, telling the difference between man made vitamin C and natural vitamin C is not possible. Now maybe it can sniff out other chemicals but not sulfur and oxygen, give me a break!!! So now were going to hold our grading companies accountable for doing this for us? Is that it? Come on folks lets cowboy up.

 

Edited to say this is no way directed to the OP as in any way disrespecting him, in fact I think it's honorable for him to bring forth this topic as it may help in some manor.

[19Lyds]

very interesting! You should tell PCGS and see if the sniffer was turned off that day or malfunctioning!

The sniffer whether on or off would not have detected anything on these coins since they did not have a chemical substance applied to them.

 

 

[Leothelion]

very interesting! You should tell PCGS and see if the sniffer was turned off that day or malfunctioning!

 

....or looking the other way.

 

 

Leo

[19Lyds]

Oh, and I think it shows character that Kryptonite would come out with this info, especially since he sells a lot of toned coins. To me, it shows honesty, which I can definitely respect.

I have never ever doubted Shane's character but what this thread shows ME is that regardless of what folks believe or "think" they know, not every toned coin in PCGS or NCG Plastic which carries a grade can be emphatically stated as being NT.

 

As for selling the lot as ART coins, this is a perfect example of what can and often does happen when folks start "experimenting". The exact same scenario gets played out with the Chinese counterfeits although these are much more easily detectable. Your "art" will eventually become someone's NT coin residing on a TPG slab unless the toning is obviously AT which at this point in time, seems to be undiscernable.

 

Regardess of the "intent", folks that experiment must undo what has been done. Shane could have very easily gone to a local shop and "undid" his experiment to prevent these from inadvertantly ending up in slabs. Selling them, IMO, was not the correct thing to do.

 

However, I'll certainly not hold a poor judgement call against him. He's still a top notch guy in my opinion.

 

Thanks for sharing Shane, hopefully others will share my sentiments but I could also see the scale tipping in the other direction.

[djdilliodon]

If the coins where placed in a high sulfer environment along with a heat lamp, my guess shane is that the colors are mostly blue, gold, and purple? If so I am extremely amazed that pcgs holdered the coins as those are extremely obvious AT examples. Please say it ain't so !

[kryptonitecomics]

.... now I found there is some truth to the statements about AT coins being graded

 

Was there ever any doubt that the TPG grade ATed coins?

 

 

For me yes it was in doubt hence the reason I stated "I found there is some truth"

[kryptonitecomics]

All I can say is what I said before...I literally have no dip in my house and don't even know where to buy the stuff so when I sold 5 Washington quarter with a little or a lot of AT color along with about 50 others in a bulk silver lot I could never have imagined that folks would see this as a bad thing on my part.

 

The coins did not have the value to justify certification and I listed them as AT and I felt then as I do know that I did what was required under the circumstances.....it's is far easier to critique the situation now that the coins are in PCGS plastic but I guess I opened myself up for all sort of critisism here and ATS just posting the details but to leave stuff out to protect myself doesn't seem like the way to go.

 

Think what you will but my motives are pure...I simply wanted folks to learn from my experience so take what you will from the information and think what you will of me but I do appreciate folks taking time out of there busy schedules to at least read through the thread.

[comicdonna]

You did no wrong here, Shane. Having no dip in the house is a good thing. Now anwser my consignment proposal in your ebay thread.

[SkyMan]

OK, Shane, now bend over and say, "Please sir, may I have another?"