Second Party Grading -- Thoughts?

[DC Dawg]

I have not seen any commentary on the new service Second Party Grading (secondpartygrading.com). Former ICG and DGS grader Mike Ellis started this company to verify the grades of ALL coins, regardless of type, age, and holder. He will also pre-screen raw coins and give his opinion on the grade you may expect. He is charging $5 per coin (minimum 5 coins) and $8 per variety attribution (minimum of 5 coins). Slabbed coins that are verified will be stickered (see the site for image of the sticker).

 

Obviously, this is intended as competition to CAC. Where the CAC will only verify NGC and PCGS slabbed pre-1964 coins SPG will verify all slabbed coins.

 

I think the competition is good. Competition is healthy for any market. I hope Mike Ellis is successful.

 

Your thoughts?

[ldhair]

I'm thinking Mike could do really well with pre-screening for folks if the price goes down a bit for large groups. I could see it saving the average collector lots of fees on grading. The sticker thing is going to be a tough battle.

[PerryHall]

Agree that competition is good but it appears that SPG will be performing some services that aren't being performed by anyone else. I wish Mike Ellis the best of wishes for his success in this endeavor.

[messydesk]

Aside from the semantic issue of the company name of what technically seems to be a 4th party grading service, where CAC seems to have market maker $ backing, SPG seems to just be one more guy's opinion when it comes to grade verification. Maybe the actual difference isn't that big, but perception is more important than reality in this case.

 

Post-TPG variety attribution of slabbed coins is a largely untapped market, with the exception of VAMs (shameless self-promotion of what I've been doing for several years) and Indian Cents (Rick Snow). I'll wish him the best here, except for VAMs and anything else I decide to start doing. I've also heard rumors that ANACS will be getting into this.

[gmarguli]

I think it'll be as successful as DGS.

[physics-fan3.14]

I think it'll be as successful as DGS.

 

I agree. I hoped DGS would succeed, but in the end it just never caught on.

 

SPG really needs to change their name, pronto.

 

First party grading is that done by yourself.

 

Second party grading is done by a dealer.

 

Third party grading is PCGS, NGC, etc.

 

Fourth Party Grading is CAC, SPG, Eagle Eye, or any other sticker services.

[mtnstyne]

First party grading - owner

 

Second party grading - dealer/pre-screener

 

Third party grading - NGC, PCGS...etc...etc...

 

Forth party grading - CAC

 

 

Seems to me they are trying to fill the role of both second party and 4th.

[michael]

i have been doing 4th party grading for the last 45+ years

 

 

michael acceptance corp

 

MAC

 

 

and yes i have been wrong a few time and i had to buy my own stuff back

in other words take a loss

 

my education tuition expense in the coin game

[coinman_23885]

I like the fact that they will screen coins in old ANACS holders for instance. I too hope that they are successful. Has anyone had any dealings with any of their products?

[RUSS BEGA]

I think it's an interesting idea, if it will catch on is a different story. only time will tell i suppose

 

-Russ

[cpm9ball]

i have been doing 4th party grading for the last 45+ years

 

 

michael acceptance corp

 

MAC

 

 

and yes i have been wrong a few time and i had to buy my own stuff back

in other words take a loss

 

my education tuition expense in the coin game

 

.........and instead of the coin getting a plus (+) or a Green Beanie, it got a Big Mac.

 

Chris

[PerryHall]

I wish them every success. They will be providing services that CAC chooses not to provide. Competition is good for any industry.

[$ilverHawk]

I agree. And suggest that Mike Ellis change the service name SPG to TPVS. Third Party Verification Service. A legitimate competition with CAC would be benefical for all collectors.

 

I am of the opinion that CAC has been a positive influence in coin collecting.

 

I hope Mike Ellis or anyone else can legitmately compete with CAC and bring a positive addition to our coin collecting community.

 

The sign of approval should be-- (thumbs u

 

 

 

$ilverHawk

[coinman_23885]

i have been doing 4th party grading for the last 45+ years

 

michael acceptance corp

 

MAC

 

.........and instead of the coin getting a plus (+) or a Green Beanie, it got a Big Mac.

 

Chris

 

That sounds a little too greasy; how about an a MACintosh apple?

 

[Frank Provasek]

The name doesn't make any sense. The coin seller is the first party, the coin buyer is the second party. The grading service is the third party. A sticker service is another third party. It could be cute to call it a fourth party, but "second party" is absolutely incorrect.

[Frank Provasek]

I wish them every success. They will be providing services that CAC chooses not to provide. Competition is good for any industry.

 

A message string about this ATS quickly disappeared, along with the account of the originator. It looks bad for a company to appear so afraid of having its quality verified by an independent party.

[Dudley the 1st]

Lets have Tea and we can call it the " Tea Party " !

[PerryHall]

The name doesn't make any sense. The coin seller is the first party, the coin buyer is the second party. The grading service is the third party. A sticker service is another third party. It could be cute to call it a fourth party, but "second party" is absolutely incorrect.

 

Considering the buyer and seller have a financial incentive to either overgrade (seller) or undergrade (buyer), the SPG is the second unbiased grader or the coin. Perhaps they should change their name to SUPG for Second Unbiased Party Grading.

[James_OldeTowne]

I have not seen any commentary on the new service Second Party Grading (secondpartygrading.com). Former ICG and DGS grader Mike Ellis started this company to verify the grades of ALL coins, regardless of type, age, and holder. He will also pre-screen raw coins and give his opinion on the grade you may expect. He is charging $5 per coin (minimum 5 coins) and $8 per variety attribution (minimum of 5 coins). Slabbed coins that are verified will be stickered (see the site for image of the sticker).

 

Obviously, this is intended as competition to CAC. Where the CAC will only verify NGC and PCGS slabbed pre-1964 coins SPG will verify all slabbed coins.

 

I think the competition is good. Competition is healthy for any market. I hope Mike Ellis is successful.

 

Your thoughts?

My only question would be whether or not they plan to "make a market" in the coins they sticker. I have always thought, and will continue to believe, that such strategy represents a conflict of interest, and is analogous to "self-slabbing". It is the reason why I do not and will not use CAC. You simply cannot be unbiased when your strategy involves manipulating a market of the very items you are certifying.

 

Aside from that, I think the idea is great! It's what I do with my photocertificates.

[Coindude]

Frank, watch out what you post over here... they may have spies over here!!

 

But, wouldn't it be funny if they really did!

[gmarguli]

Frank, watch out what you post over here... they may have spies over here!!

 

But, wouldn't it be funny if they really did!

 

Both companies read the others forums. I've been told this by people at both companies.

 

People have been banned ATS for posts made over here. No joke!

[michael]

i love big macs

 

[DC Dawg]

My only question would be whether or not they plan to "make a market" in the coins they sticker. I have always thought, and will continue to believe, that such strategy represents a conflict of interest, and is analogous to "self-slabbing". It is the reason why I do not and will not use CAC. You simply cannot be unbiased when your strategy involves manipulating a market of the very items you are certifying.

When we had "arguments" about the CAC, I said basically the same thing except using more harsh words ("market manipulation" was one of my milder comments). I think that there are certain legal implications to this, but there are some (with stakes in that organization) who disagree with me. But I like the way you said this.

 

That being said, I still am not sure that Second Party Grading or CAC is a good idea. I don't think it's a bad idea either. Maybe since I am not into slabbed coins I don't see the point. But that's why there are options out there that will satisfy all collectors!

 

Scott

 

[Prethen]

I don't see any evidence of his website any more. Is Mike Ellis still pursuing this?

[Conder101]

The website is gone alright. I suspect so is the service.

 

Anyone have a picture of an SPG stickered slab?

[Oldtrader3]

Maybe as Frank suggested, since TPG's won't do it, is to add a RFID chip to the slab in the Second Party grading seal. If NGC nad PCGS will not do it, maybe a second party grading service should. This would assure that the second party grader is adding value to their seal by ID'ing the coin as unique. This would be my business model, if I was doing it.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It seems to me that the First Party is the individual(s)/organization that decides to send a coin to a disinterested individual/organization for an independent "certified" opinion(assuming it is the first time this happened). This independent individual/organization that gives a "certified" opinion is the Second Party.

When the Second Party "certifies" the opinion, the First Party can, of course, always send the Second Party coin to another disinterested individual/organization, intact with the "certification", and ask for a Third Party opinion (Cross-Over).The question is, if the Second Parties' opinion is "rejected" by the First Party, and the First Party decides to send the coin to another disinterested individual/organization for an opinion and does not mention that a Second Party has already given an opinion, is it really a Third Party, or a Fourth Party?

And that is why God created Lawyers and Judges(and Internet Boards to raise the issue).

Just An Opinion;

John Curlis

[jom]

OK, so who is going to verify the verification service who verifies the grading service? 5th party grading? Also, are they going to make the slabs larger to accommodate all of the stickers and other graffiti?

 

Joking aside I don't see a problem with having some competition for CAC but I don't see this catching on as some "market". It could put a slab owners mind at ease I suppose. Then again you can go to just about any dealer and get an opinion...you know what they say about opinions, right? Everyone has one....

 

jom

[Houston Investor]

I believe it is a good idea as many individuals have ANACS and ICG coins which CAC does not accept. Competetion in this arena is a good thing.

 

In reality IMO, the buyer of say a 1911-D Indian in MS 63 (a $20,500 coin according to the latest issue of coin prices) is going to want the coin in a NGC or PCGS slab and a CAC sticker will probably aid in selling the coin. This is not a slam to ANACS or ICG but simply a reflection of buyer preferences I have seen in the marketplace.

 

Like any third party service, the fees can accumulate and are a tackon to inventory cost. One has to evaluate if the coin is big ticket enough to justify this expense and if such investment will materially aid in marketing the coin. Just bc a coin is stickered does not mean its going to be desireable to a potential buyer.

 

 

[leeg]

Whoever Grade It was destroyed any credibilty Mike have had in making this work. Truly a shame.