“questionable authenticity” now comes back slabbed

[Westwood Arms]

I submitted a coin to NGC for grading and encapsulation.

It came back “questionable authenticity.”

I returned it to the guy I purchased it from.

 

He submitted it to NGC and it came back slabbed!!

 

Is the coin fake or genuine?

 

[bsshog40]

Couldn't even begin to tell you unless you can show the coin.

[Walkerfan]

I submitted a coin to NGC for grading and encapsulation.

It came back “questionable authenticity.”

I returned it to the guy I purchased it from.

 

He submitted it to NGC and it came back slabbed!!

 

Is the coin fake or genuine?

 

Yet another example of the extremely subjective nature of coin grading by TPGCs.....proof that it commonly happens and is a serious issue.

[michael]

genuine

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

First of all, Welcome to our friendly little neighborhood!

 

My first reaction is to be suspicious - are you absolutely certain he submitted the same coin?

[PerryHall]

I submitted a coin to NGC for grading and encapsulation.

It came back questionable authenticity.

I returned it to the guy I purchased it from.

 

He submitted it to NGC and it came back slabbed!!

 

Is the coin fake or genuine?

 

Yet another example of the extremely subjective nature of coin grading by TPGCs.....proof that it commonly happens and is a serious issue.

 

Grading is subjective. Authenticity should NOT be subjective. It's either real or it's fake and two competent expert authenticators should both reach the same conclusion on a specific coin.

[Conder101]

Grading is subjective. Authenticity should NOT be subjective. It's either real or it's fake and two competent expert authenticators should both reach the same conclusion on a specific coin.

True, but the graders spend so little time looking at the coin things like this happen and it probably happens more often than we know of. It's one of the reasons I never felt comfortable about everyone's blind faith that the TPG's slabs meant the coin was genuine, and why MBT and I spent so much time trying to get the TPG's to put their guarantee of authenticity in writing. Authenticity has only been guaranteed in writing for about four years.

[James_OldeTowne]

Grading is subjective. Authenticity should NOT be subjective. It's either real or it's fake and two competent expert authenticators should both reach the same conclusion on a specific coin.

I can't agree with this. One would like to believe that every coin can be authenticated (or not) with 100% accuracy, but we all know that the authenticity of some coins cannot be easily proven. A certain 1959 wheat cent comes to mind.

[TomB]

Are you certain he's telling the truth?

[gmarguli]

Do not assume that just because a TPG said counterfeit that the coin is or vice-versa.

 

NGC called this coin counterfeit:

 

It's the Krause plate coin and has been for 20 years. It was shown to an expert and deemed authentic. It now resides in a PCGS slab.

 

I submitted two coins to a TPG that were both slabbed as authentic. One was submitted to prove it was counterfeit and the other was purchased as a contemporary counterfeit and I mistakenly submitted it. They screw up!

[BillJones]

Grading is subjective. Authenticity should NOT be subjective. It's either real or it's fake and two competent expert authenticators should both reach the same conclusion on a specific coin.

 

There is HUGE difference between grading and authentication. One would hope that authentication would be close to 100% correct, while grading came be a completely different situation because subjectivity is involved.

 

There are a few coins that are just too tough to call when it comes to authentication. I remember a Pikes Peak gold piece and a Mormon gold coin in a dealer’s inventory that the services refused to call one way or the other. Both coins had been sweated, and the surfaces were such that no one could really make a definitive judgment. But those are the extreme exceptions.

 

[Westwood Arms]

Coin in hand. This is definitely the one I submitted, that came back questionable authenticity. Now it is slabbed.

At least the grade is correct.

[bsshog40]

Coin in hand. This is definitely the one I submitted, that came back questionable authenticity. Now it is slabbed.

At least the grade is correct.

So did you purchase this back from the seller? Did he charge you more? What's uuupp?

[Westwood Arms]

I bought the coin from dealer #1. When it came back in a bag, I returned it to dealer #1 and got my money back.

 

Dealer #1 returned it to dealer #2 from whom he had bought it. Dealer #2 thought it was genuine and I said if he got it slabbed I would buy it from him.

 

I ended up paying dealer #2 about $50 less than the price I had originally paid dealer #1.

[bsshog40]

Good deal!! (thumbs u

[Old Pueblo]

Is there such a thing as "questionable authenticity" ?

I would think it either is, or it is not.

 

??

 

 

OP

[Walkerfan]

I bought the coin from dealer #1. When it came back in a bag, I returned it to dealer #1 and got my money back.

 

Dealer #1 returned it to dealer #2 from whom he had bought it. Dealer #2 thought it was genuine and I said if he got it slabbed I would buy it from him.

 

I ended up paying dealer #2 about $50 less than the price I had originally paid dealer #1.

 

You're a shrewd businessman but how do you feel about that coin? Are you conifident that it is legitimate??

[Walkerfan]

Is there such a thing as "questionable authenticity" ?

I would think it either is, or it is not.

 

??

 

 

OP

 

I agree but sometimes there are no guarantees and things aren't always black and white. I think like you, because I have a mathematical mind, but in the real world, things are often more abstract and less concrete....unfortunately. I had a dealer tell me (after I got a coin back from the TPGC in a BB that he told me, positively, was a 'problem-free, choice coin') that he was 'on the fence' about it. What the heck does that mean??!! Basically, he was saying that he didn't know any more than I did (but didn't want to admit it) and shouldn't have commited himself to a judgement call. He told me this after the fact, which only added insult to MY injury. And he was an 'authorized' dealer (with supposedly 35+ years experience).....never again. It is always good to gain opinions and advice from others but we must always trust our own judgement and make our own, hopefully, correct decisions. Grading and authenticating coins accurately is something that takes many, many years to learn, so we must become 'students' of the game but even then we may still be fooled.

[Westwood Arms]

I always thought it was genuine, the diagnostics are there. Dealer #1 and #2 are tops in the field.

 

I only wanted it slabbed because I got drawn into registry competition and some guy in China said he would sell one for $9.99 without the copy stamp.

 

 

[Conder101]

but how do you feel about that coin? Are you conifident that it is legitimate??

Since we know it happened to this coin, it could have happened to any other coin you see in a slab that you don't KNOW the slabbing history of. So how confident should you be in ANY slab?

[Keigwin]

Is there such a thing as "questionable authenticity" ?

I would think it either is, or it is not.

 

??

 

OP

"Questionable authenticity" is cited even when the TPG knows with certainty the coin is not authentic.

 

If the TPG were to declare a coin counterfeit it is obligated to notify the Secret Service and turn over the coin. This gets very messy for the owner and the TPG. So a simple way around this is to declare authenticity questionable and return the coin.

Lance.

[Walkerfan]

but how do you feel about that coin? Are you conifident that it is legitimate??

Since we know it happened to this coin, it could have happened to any other coin you see in a slab that you don't KNOW the slabbing history of. So how confident should you be in ANY slab?

 

I meant how does HE feel based on his OWN knowledge and opinion NOT relying ONLY on the slab. When people rely solely on a slab, that is when they get into trouble, whether it be grade, authenticity, cleaning or any other issues.

 

I'll tell you straight up, right now, that I honestly DO NOT trust TPGC slabs, alone.

[gmarguli]

Is there such a thing as "questionable authenticity" ?

I would think it either is, or it is not.

 

??

 

OP

"Questionable authenticity" is cited even when the TPG knows with certainty the coin is not authentic.

 

If the TPG were to declare a coin counterfeit it is obligated to notify the Secret Service and turn over the coin. This gets very messy for the owner and the TPG. So a simple way around this is to declare authenticity questionable and return the coin.

Lance.

 

I've had coins recently come back "Not Genuine" and many years ago "Counterfeit".

[Keigwin]

That's interesting. I've never seen one.

 

Perhaps NGC has a softer stance on this? I know that Don Willis at PCGS has said "PCGS has to be very careful about what we say and how we say it. For example we have to label coins "questionable authenticity" vs. "counterfeit" per our lawyers advice."

Lance.

[PandaLover]

how about "authenticity unverifiable"? what it mean?

 

why NGC have so many excuse for not grading the coin but take our money?