1964-D Peace Dollar

[RWB]

The only "art" is that of a talent-less10-yr old fascinated with ancient Egyptian images. Outside of coin collector circles, the stuff is laughable.

 

Greed is a mighty master.

 

[19Lyds]

To alleviate any further shenanigans, I think the US Attorney Generals office is brazen enough to confiscate the very machine these coins were struck on.

 

Without due process?

They could do it if they considered the pieces to be counterfeit with the intent of selling them for use as circulating legal tender and if they considered the possibility that he was turning out counterfeit coinage with the intent of defrauding the United States Government. All they would really reuire is resonable suspicion that a crime against the Government is being perpetrated to get a search warrant from a US District Judge.

 

However, each of the representing organizations has passed the buck to the other and this really amounts to an FTC issue for enforcement of the HPA.

[Hoot]

I'm happy to know you peacefully disagree, Roger.

 

Hoot

[James_OldeTowne]

For those folks offended by the fantasy coin, I am curious. Would you still be against it if it were dated 1963-S? or 2007-W for that matter?

 

I can see both sides of the argument, and I do understand where Roger is coming from. In theory, one could see the host coins as mere "planchet stock" for the "counterfeit" dies. On the other hand, there's a question of whether it is possible to counterfeit a (presumed) non-existent coin.

 

Isn't coin collecting just the best?

[RWB]

It's an immoral, unethical and blatantly illegal activity.

 

The apparent acceptance of Mr. Carr's activities by so many collectors makes me question the ethical base of the so-called hobby. The same people who complain bitterly about Chinese counterfeits, or added mintmarks or polished fields, or whizzed coins or any number of perverted practices, happily support these very same practices by Mr. Carr.

 

Unless authorities step in and correct the situation, the hobby of coin collecting will be irreparably damaged by the illicit and immoral activities of Mr. Carr and his imitators, and their proliferation of fakes and mutants upon the public.

 

Greed is, indeed, a mighty master.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Not to get worked up into FROTHY FRENZY, but set aside the rules and regulations set forth by this great nation of ours, set aside the date or even where and how it was struck, does not the reverse of this so-called fantasy piece still say UNITED STATES of AMERICA ONE DOLLAR ?

 

This so-called fantasy piece has not been demonetized and could still be misconstrued as legal tender. I ask for an explanation?

 

Please

[bsshog40]

I think it's fine to not consider what Daniel has done "art." I'll happily disagree and we can still be friends . So much of art is imitation and transformation, with little that is truly original in nature, considering the preponderance of it all. Originality is certainly not an issue in this case, but that does not diminish the talent involved in the transformational process. I personally believe that the art of this effort came in the transformational process - but that's just my belief.

 

Hoot

That is one of the many reasons and benefits of this society. We all have our own opinions and they are much better recieved by people who respect them instead of bash them. (thumbs u

[edix]

RWB's comments are not without irony, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

RWB questions the legality of the 1964-D fantasy Peace dollar, but due to their popularity, forces himself to offer invective, even to the point of moving on to an angry critique of Carr's artistic talents, which is not even an issue with this piece. Next he'll be calling him a bad parent.

[Coinsman63]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

[edix]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

[Coinsman63]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

 

So you're saying because "other" people are doing it, Mr. Carr can too.

 

Sorry but regardless of what, how, and how much they profit from it, it is dishonest, and a violation of the HPA.

 

If Mr. Carr fantasized about owning his own 1964-D Peace Dollar he should have made only one, for his own collection, and let it go at that.

 

Making more than one, and selling it at an over-rated price, is counterfeiting for profit, regardless of the fact it's, as Mr. Carr claims, a genuine peace dollar in low grade.

[MarkFeld]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

In the end, it should come down to what constitutes an "imitation numismatic item" as per the Hobby Protection Act language below. Some of the examples you gave above appear not to be, while I think that the 1964-D Peace Dollars produced by Mr. Carr might qualify.

 

""(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

[bsshog40]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

Very good points edix. If they weren't soo expensive, I know $100, but thats a little more I feel to spend for a bullion peace (pun intended), I wouldn't mind having one for the heck of it. I think the hype that started ATS with this is what brought on all this debate. I don't see these being slabbed or becoming very collectible in years to come, but mainly a conversation peice just to look at. I'm still in question tho' as were these actually made and destroyed? If so, shouldn't they be classified as replicas or copies? If none were actually made then shouldn't it be considered a fantasy bullion coin?

[edix]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

 

So you're saying because "other" people are doing it, Mr. Carr can too.

 

Sorry but regardless of what, how, and how much they profit from it, it is dishonest, and a violation of the HPA.

 

If Mr. Carr fantasized about owning his own 1964-D Peace Dollar he should have made only one, for his own collection, and let it go at that.

 

Making more than one, and selling it at an over-rated price, is counterfeiting for profit, regardless of the fact it's, as Mr. Carr claims, a genuine peace dollar in low grade.

 

You seem to be all over the place on this one.

First, making elongated cents is perfectly reasonable, since it is completely legal. And one can only charge what the market will bear. Are you suggesting we need to change our economic system to suit your personal opinions?

You also seem to claim that Carr's fantasy overstrike is both against the HPA and counterfeiting laws. These are two very different applications of law. How are they in violation of both of them, or either?

And why would it be OK for Carr to make a single specimen for himself and none for anyone else? Does anyone get to keep it after he passes on?

Of course there is nothing wrong with questioning his creation, since that is really part of his intention, at heart. But, any true critique should be based on sound reasoning.

I'm all for continuing the dialogue.

[bsshog40]

And when was the last time you bought an elongated cent from a machine? .50c That's quite a markup.

[edix]

In the end, it should come down to what constitutes an "imitation numismatic item" as per the Hobby Protection Act language below. Some of the examples you gave above appear not to be, while I think that the 1964-D Peace Dollars produced by Mr. Carr might qualify.

 

""(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

 

This is the closest real critique of the legality of the fantasy piece, and folks can agree or disagree if it actually applies. I think one argument against that is that no one actually knows exactly what a Mint struck 1964-D ever looked like, in terms of the aspects of the engraved design. Carr himself made some alteration to his design compared, to let's say, the design on the final 1935 issue. But perhaps this issue will bring an actual 1964-D out into the open for comparison. And ironically, RWB would likely have to include a reference to Carr as helping bring that about in any update to his Peace dollar book, if it were to occur.

[Conder101]

""(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item (You mean like an original US Peace dollar? which has been altered or modified in such a manner (You mean like being overstruck with privately made dies?) that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. (You means like making say a 1923 peace claim to be a 1964-D peace dollar?) The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

Sounds to me like the HPA applies and his pieces are "Imitation Numismatic Items".

 

 

[MarkFeld]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

Very good points edix. If they weren't soo expensive, I know $100, but thats a little more I feel to spend for a bullion peace (pun intended), I wouldn't mind having one for the heck of it. I think the hype that started ATS with this is what brought on all this debate. I don't see these being slabbed or becoming very collectible in years to come, but mainly a conversation peice just to look at. I'm still in question tho' as were these actually made and destroyed? If so, shouldn't they be classified as replicas or copies? If none were actually made then shouldn't it be considered a fantasy bullion coin?

Yes, genuine examples were definitely produced. And all of them were allegedly destroyed, though there are many doubters.

 

 

[edix]

And when was the last time you bought an elongated cent from a machine? .50c That's quite a markup.

Acc'd to some elongated cent collectors, some machines are up to a buck. That is 100X the face value, which is pert near Carr's multiple.

I recently purchased an elongated nickel and cent from the Original Hobo Nickel Society for $6, which is also 100X face value. (A Buffalo nickel was the base coin.)

[MarkFeld]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

 

So you're saying because "other" people are doing it, Mr. Carr can too.

 

Sorry but regardless of what, how, and how much they profit from it, it is dishonest, and a violation of the HPA.

 

If Mr. Carr fantasized about owning his own 1964-D Peace Dollar he should have made only one, for his own collection, and let it go at that.

 

Making more than one, and selling it at an over-rated price, is counterfeiting for profit, regardless of the fact it's, as Mr. Carr claims, a genuine peace dollar in low grade.

 

 

I don't think it's a slam dunk that the HPA is bring violated or that the items are counterfeits. To be fair, you shouldn't state your opinions as fact

[James_OldeTowne]

In the end, it should come down to what constitutes an "imitation numismatic item" as per the Hobby Protection Act language below. Some of the examples you gave above appear not to be, while I think that the 1964-D Peace Dollars produced by Mr. Carr might qualify.

 

""(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

Mark, you bring up a good point, with the quotation of that exact wording.

 

Edited to add: It occurs to me that the issue might be whether something which does not exist (or is believed not to exist) can be called a "numismatic item".

 

Is it possible to plagiarize writing that once existed, but no longer does?

[MarkFeld]

In the end, it should come down to what constitutes an "imitation numismatic item" as per the Hobby Protection Act language below. Some of the examples you gave above appear not to be, while I think that the 1964-D Peace Dollars produced by Mr. Carr might qualify.

 

""(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

Mark, you bring up a good point, with the quotation of that exact wording.

 

Thanks James. I have posted it a number of times on various forums, because I believe that ultimately, that is the crux of the matter. Many people have chosen to ignore it and debate other points, instead, however.

 

By the way, who says that "sleepy holow" is sleepy?

[Coinsman63]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

Very good points edix. If they weren't soo expensive, I know $100, but thats a little more I feel to spend for a bullion peace (pun intended), I wouldn't mind having one for the heck of it. I think the hype that started ATS with this is what brought on all this debate. I don't see these being slabbed or becoming very collectible in years to come, but mainly a conversation peice just to look at. I'm still in question tho' as were these actually made and destroyed? If so, shouldn't they be classified as replicas or copies? If none were actually made then shouldn't it be considered a fantasy bullion coin?

Yes, genuine examples were definitely produced. And all of them were allegedly destroyed, though there are many doubters.

 

 

The same conspiracy theorists who subscribe to the belief the Government blew up the twin towers on 9/11/01.

[MarkFeld]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

 

 

Lots of people alter coins and profit from the alteration. It's common and popular. Ron Landis can carve a Buffalo nickel and get paid hundreds of dollars for it. He even overstruck Jefferson nickels to look like carved Buffalo nickels. Mel Wacks issued a number of quality overstruck coins celebrating various events. Tom Maringer overstrikes copper cents and silver dimes with brand new designs. Heck, an elongated cent machine at any airport or zoo is an alteration of a genuine Mint coin made for profit.

Very good points edix. If they weren't soo expensive, I know $100, but thats a little more I feel to spend for a bullion peace (pun intended), I wouldn't mind having one for the heck of it. I think the hype that started ATS with this is what brought on all this debate. I don't see these being slabbed or becoming very collectible in years to come, but mainly a conversation peice just to look at. I'm still in question tho' as were these actually made and destroyed? If so, shouldn't they be classified as replicas or copies? If none were actually made then shouldn't it be considered a fantasy bullion coin?

Yes, genuine examples were definitely produced. And all of them were allegedly destroyed, though there are many doubters.

 

 

The same conspiracy theorists who subscribe to the belief the Government blew up the twin towers on 9/11/01.

No, it's more like the same people who believed that 1933 Saints could have escaped the mint in a legal fashion. And who have been vindicated by the recent discovery of official documents.

 

Why is it so hard for you to believe that not everyone who had their hands on a 1964-D Peace Dollar turned them in as they were supposed to? And even if you choose not to believe it, that is no reason to mock those who do.

[bsshog40]

Man it's been a while since we've had a good debate here. It's actually stayin pretty calm too! (thumbs u

[19Lyds]

Not to get worked up into FROTHY FRENZY, but set aside the rules and regulations set forth by this great nation of ours, set aside the date or even where and how it was struck, does not the reverse of this so-called fantasy piece still say UNITED STATES of AMERICA ONE DOLLAR ?

 

This so-called fantasy piece has not been demonetized and could still be misconstrued as legal tender. I ask for an explanation?

 

Please

It is still worth One Dollar in the same manor that a 1922 Peace Dollar which has been place on the road and run over 50 times to the point where its nearly unrecognizable.

 

It is NOT a piece of Paper with a Value scrawled across it saying what its worth, it is actually worth one dollar in legal tender.

 

Being made from an existing Peace Dollar it still hasve that value.

[19Lyds]

, since Carr, as a designer, was a finalist for the reverse design of the golden dollar, successfully designed two state quarters and was in the running for several other state quarter designs.

 

So does that give Mr. Carr leave to alter genuine Mint coinage and to profit from the alteration?

 

Mr Carr is at liberty to use any 90% silver piece to produce anything he wants as long as it's not a real coin.

 

He could use that planchet stock for the production of Amero's for example.

 

He could NOT use that planchet stock to make 1934-S Peace Dollars though since they are real coins.

 

The 1964-D Peace Dollar does not exist which is the basis for Mr. Carr's production.

[bsshog40]

There's a pretty interesting article about the 64' Peace on the PCGS website, looks to have been dated about 1998 for those that are interested in reading it.

[RWB]

"... that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified."

 

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

[jtryka]

It's an immoral, unethical and blatantly illegal activity.

 

The apparent acceptance of Mr. Carr's activities by so many collectors makes me question the ethical base of the so-called hobby. The same people who complain bitterly about Chinese counterfeits, or added mintmarks or polished fields, or whizzed coins or any number of perverted practices, happily support these very same practices by Mr. Carr.

 

Unless authorities step in and correct the situation, the hobby of coin collecting will be irreparably damaged by the illicit and immoral activities of Mr. Carr and his imitators, and their proliferation of fakes and mutants upon the public.

 

Greed is, indeed, a mighty master.

 

 

Roger, I have the highest respect for you and your work, but I would hesitate to ascribe some lack of ethics or moral fiber to our entire hobby based on the opinions on this coin. Right or wrong, I think many of the feelings here (myself included) are really springing more from a "stick it to the MAN" mentality than trying to commit some sort of fraud. Other coins, like the 33 Saint may have been illegal for us to own for many years, but we could at least go see the ones at the Smithsonian. For this particular coin, we were never even given the opportunity to see one, even though there was no secrecy surrounding their production. To me, that was a slap in the face from the mint to collectors, and a fantasy piece like this is just our way of slapping back.