1964-D Peace Dollar

[physics-fan3.14]

Anyone got a picture? I feel like I don't know what's going on.

[WoodenJefferson]

Someone ATS asked why we were not getting into a frothy frenzy posting war over here with over 900 posts to just one thread in three days ATS...what's the point?

[Hoot]

Way too cool to pass up!

 

Hoot

[dcarr]

I guess I should add a few comments here.

 

The coins in question are genuine Peace Silver Dollars, originally minted from 1922-1935. I take VF-AU grade coins and I run them through extensive processing prior to over-striking (flattening, burnishing, etc). But no metal is ever added or removed. The first 222 produced were over-struck four times at 200+ tons. These have subdued luster, ranging from satiny-matte to somewhat shiny. After that, I switched to one over-strike at 300+ tons. This produces a stronger "cartwheel" luster.

 

A couple of things that set these apart from Chinese fakes:

 

1)

The ones I produce have the correct weight and silver content, because they are made out of vintage legal-tender silver dollars. Chinese fakes are made out of junk metal (no silver content) and are made to look like a legal-tender dollar instrument, even though they never were (this is the classic definition of currency counterfeiting). They are so cheaply made that they could produce them for less than a dollar, spend them at "face value", and still make a profit.

 

2)

Mine are over-struck in the USA (Colorado) using a Denver Mint surplus coin press, operated by a designer of two US Mint coins (NY and RI state quarters).

 

 

You can take a 1944-D cent, cut off parts of the "4", and make it look like a rarer "1914-D" cent. You can even sell it at a profit. This is NOT counterfeiting and it is NOT illegal. Defacing money is LEGAL, so long as it isn't for FRAUDULENT purposes, and so long as you aren't lightening the weight of the coin (shaving gold/silver), or adding commercial advertising. Now if you took that ALTERED "1914-D" cent and tried to sell it as an original 1914-D cent, or sold it without fully disclosing the alterations you knew about, then that would be fraud. "Hobo" nickels are genuine coins with extensive alterations. They are perfectly legal to make, sell, and buy.

 

The "1964-D" fantasy over-struck Peace Dollars are always presented by me with FULL disclosure as to their true nature. They are genuine but privately altered Peace Silver Dollars that show a date which, according to the government, does not exist. I also intentionally double-punched the mint mark as another permanent marker.

 

Some of the pictures shown previously here are of the cheap Chinese version.

Here are pictures of one I over-struck:

 

 

 

My original motivation for embarking on this project was that I always wanted my own "1964-D" Peace Silver Dollar. I day-dreamed about what it would have been like to be operating the coin press stamping the original 1964-D Peace Dollars, and to be able to grab one as it came off the coin press and just look at it (and take it home !), before it fell into the collection bin. Now I get to live that day-dream (as close as will ever be possible, anyway). Maybe you can imagine how much fun it would be to make these. But it was a lot of very difficult work as well, not something the "average" private operation would be able to do very well.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

[PerryHall]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

[detredwings]

Do any of you collect his other items beside the 1964 Peace dollar? I'm not saying everyone here is collecting the Peace dollar.

[bsshog40]

David I respect your ambition and motivation. I've seen some of your other Fantasy Coins and they are nice. What I'm not really understanding is all the hype associated with these when in my eyes are nothing more than bullion pieces. There is soo much talk ATS about these being put in slabs, potential high value, etc...Don't get me wrong, I think whatever interests a collector is all fine and dandy. I don't think it's any different than collecting colored qtrs, painted dollars, bullion rounds, but I just don't understand all the hype over an altered worn out peace dollar that was only worth it's weight in silver before someone decided to change the date and restore it's condition.

[James_OldeTowne]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

For those of us who never go ATS, can you please provide a link?

[Coinsman63]

The U.S. Mint says all 1964-D peace dollars were melted and none now exists. How is it possible to "COPY" something that doesn't exist? This is not a counterfeit since no real examples exist. This would more properly be called a fantasy coin. There were a few dozen threads concerning this coin on the PCGS coin forums but they were all locked or deleted. Apparently PCGS wants to pretend these coins don't exist or they think by deleting these threads fewer forum members will know about them.

 

The U.S Mint does not hold a copyright on any coin design image that has, and still, appears on the coinage they produce.

 

As such, anyone can make a replica of the Peace Dollar, Morgan, etc etc etc.

 

The HPA; however, states that any reproduction of U.S. coins must be marked as a COPY or REPLICA.

[MarkFeld]

The U.S. Mint says all 1964-D peace dollars were melted and none now exists. How is it possible to "COPY" something that doesn't exist? This is not a counterfeit since no real examples exist. This would more properly be called a fantasy coin. There were a few dozen threads concerning this coin on the PCGS coin forums but they were all locked or deleted. Apparently PCGS wants to pretend these coins don't exist or they think by deleting these threads fewer forum members will know about them.

PCGS isn't pretending that the coins don't exist - they probably got tired of the beating of the dead horse, with all of the threads and the bickering that most of them led to. And if they were intent on fewer forum members knowing about it, they would have deleted, rather than locked the thread with more than 900 replies.

 

Your accusation is baseless and absurd.

 

And for a couple other posters here - the name is Daniel (not David) Carr.

[19Lyds]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

For those of us who never go ATS, can you please provide a link?

Here's the original thread which was locked. (Post 324)

[bsshog40]

 

And for a couple other posters here - the name is Daniel (not David) Carr.

OOPPSS Sorry Daniel

[RWB]

Maybe it will be #2895301 at Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary.

[Dcoin]

I'm late to the party but...

 

What happens when the next coin maker copies the process except with a 1933 20$? Still a fantasy coin right? How about 1804$ or a 1856 cent?

 

This kind of coin opens the door to not as scrupulous makers to gain a foothold in the legit coin market. Just my mint produced

 

[WoodenJefferson]

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

 

For those of us who never are not allowed to go ATS, can you please provide a link?

 

There, I fixed that for ya James

[19Lyds]

I'm late to the party but...

 

What happens when the next coin maker copies the process except with a 1933 20$? Still a fantasy coin right? How about 1804$ or a 1856 cent?

 

This kind of coin opens the door to not as scrupulous makers to gain a foothold in the legit coin market. Just my mint produced

I guess you are late.

 

All the coins you mention can be proven to exist and there has never been any question on whether or not they do exist. Some, such as the 1804 and 1856 were restrikes done under questionable authorization but they are still acceptable collectibles.

 

The entire point being, DCARR is creating a fantsy piece of a coin which does not exist and cannot be "proven" to exist.

[MarkFeld]

I'm late to the party but...

 

What happens when the next coin maker copies the process except with a 1933 20$? Still a fantasy coin right? How about 1804$ or a 1856 cent?

 

This kind of coin opens the door to not as scrupulous makers to gain a foothold in the legit coin market. Just my mint produced

I guess you are late.

 

All the coins you mention can be proven to exist and there has never been any question on whether or not they do exist. Some, such as the 1804 and 1856 were restrikes done under questionable authorization but they are still acceptable collectibles.

 

The entire point being, DCARR is creating a fantsy piece of a coin which does not exist and cannot be "proven" to exist.

Lee, that might be YOUR entire point, but it is not THE entire point.

 

There might or might not be genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars extant. But it might not matter, either way. As I mentioned previously, based on the applicable language in the Hobby Protection Act, I am not convinced that there needs to be recognition/proof of a genuine one, for these to be considered "copies".

 

"(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

[dcarr]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Hello James,

 

I ONLY use non-PVC archival-safe flips. The only way your coin would have come in a PVC flip is if you bought it from someone else and they had swapped it.

 

Check the stiffness of the plastic. If it is stiff, then little or no PVC. If the plastic is very pliable, then it has PVC.

 

Another way to test is to fold the plastic over and pinch the fold with your fingers. If a permanent white hazing occurs along the fold like, then the plastic has little or no PVC. If the fold like is hardly visible after pinching, then it is PVC plastic.

 

[dcarr]

I'm late to the party but...

 

What happens when the next coin maker copies the process except with a 1933 20$? Still a fantasy coin right? How about 1804$ or a 1856 cent?

 

This kind of coin opens the door to not as scrupulous makers to gain a foothold in the legit coin market. Just my mint produced

I guess you are late.

 

All the coins you mention can be proven to exist and there has never been any question on whether or not they do exist. Some, such as the 1804 and 1856 were restrikes done under questionable authorization but they are still acceptable collectibles.

 

The entire point being, DCARR is creating a fantsy piece of a coin which does not exist and cannot be "proven" to exist.

Lee, that might be YOUR entire point, but it is not THE entire point.

 

There might or might not be genuine 1964-D Peace Dollars extant. But it might not matter, either way. As I mentioned previously, based on the applicable language in the Hobby Protection Act, I am not convinced that there needs to be recognition/proof of a genuine one, for these to be considered "copies".

 

"(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

 

The HPA language is insufficient to really define the matter.

The question is, are my "1964" over-strikes a COPY of an "original numismatic item" or not ?

If I were to strike them on anonymous blanks, then they would be a copy of a Peace Dollar TYPE - but not a "copy" of a 1964 Peace dollar since it can't be a copy if none of the originals exist (according to the government).

 

However, I'm stamping over (altering) original Peace Dollars. So mine are NOT a "copy" the Peace Dollar type - they ARE (defaced) Peace Dollars.

 

If a "hobo" nickel carver took an Indian Head nickel and carved the date into something that doesn't exist (like "1922", for example), would they have to stamp "COPY" on the coin ? I say no.

 

[Connecticoin]

Well I guess some of the threads I was reading ATS were exagerating prices then. That was where I had gotten that high price also. I feel a little better about these knowing the real prices. I have a proposed design coin that I paid $99 for and feel that is ok for those that want a souvenir coin.

Seems like I paid $110, or something like that.

 

One annoyance is that it was shipped to me in a PVC flip.

 

Are your sure it has PVC? I thought it was a SaFlip -- it is as brittle as a SaFlip.

 

Also, I agree with James view on the legality of the coin -- at a minimum, there appears to be enough gray area as to the legality under the HPA.

[messydesk]

Skill of executing the dies for a 1964-D Peace dollar notwithstanding, I consider what he did to be a quixotic exercise in Bad Judgement. The arguments he makes for the legality of what he did are a bit tenuous. He's walking on egg shells in a vast gray area that may end up costing him dearly. Through the thousands of postings ATS debating the legality of what he did, you can deduce that a US Attorney will pile up lots of paperwork and witnesses that he'll have to respond to at great expense with no guarantee of a positive outcome on his part. If he does prevail, it opens the door for others who have a long history of disrespect for the hobby to do the same thing, or worse. I think the best outcome for everyone is if the gummint says that authentic 64-D dollars were issued and recalled to the best of their ability, but that the possibility exists that there are a small number of authentic coins extant that would be considered stolen property, seizes the dies, gives him a stern talking to that will cause him to stay out of that grey area in the future, and threatens to seize the coins that were sold.

[WoodenJefferson]

To alleviate any further shenanigans, I think the US Attorney Generals office is brazen enough to confiscate the very machine these coins were struck on.

[PerryHall]

David, please see my previous comment regarding the PVC flip which you use for housing the coins. Being silver, they are assured of reacting negatively with the flips at some point. You are not sealing the flips anyway, so I should think there would be no problem investing just a trivial amount more in flips that are much safer.

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

For those of us who never go ATS, can you please provide a link?

 

I think it was in one of the many threads that were poofed by PCGS.

Edited to add that I now see that Dan Carr responded to this issue in this thread.

[PerryHall]

To alleviate any further shenanigans, I think the US Attorney Generals office is brazen enough to confiscate the very machine these coins were struck on.

 

Without due process?

[PerryHall]

To alleviate any further shenanigans, I think the US Attorney Generals office is brazen enough to confiscate the very machine these coins were struck on.

 

Without due process?

[James_OldeTowne]

 

I've already transferred mine to a safe mylar flip, and hope others will do the same.

 

Dan Carr made it perfectly clear in some of the threads ATS that he doesn't use PVC flips and that his flips are safe for coin storage.

 

For those of us who never are not allowed to go ATS, can you please provide a link?

 

There, I fixed that for ya James

Thanks !!

 

 

And for a couple other posters here - the name is Daniel (not David) Carr.

OOPPSS Sorry Daniel

Ditto!

[Hoot]

Personally, I'm grateful for Daniel's extraordinary talent. I'm also grateful for the fact that he executed this fantasy piece in such a way that it implicitly cannot represent an "original" 1964-D Peace Dollar. The only "thing" that can represent one of Daniel's fantasy pieces as an original Peace Dollar walks on two legs and lies like a carpet. This piece is readily identified as a non-government issue and has the die markers to prove it.

 

I find it peculiar, especially in the face of the Mint's insistence that ALL 1964-D Peace Dollars were destroyed (so they do not exist), that there should be any confusion over the issue of whether Daniel's pieces are counterfeit or not. There has been no act to deceive in their production and sale, and any subsequent act of deception is the burden of the person perpetrating it. This seems like a common aspect of any form of fraud and criminal activity in that realm, so to try to drag what Daniel has done into that realm is fictitious. Truly, there is no comparison of Daniel's work to that of would-be counterfeiters who have acted solely to deceive in both the inception and execution of their work.

 

In my opinion, what Daniel has created is a work of art based on the original design of Anthony de Francisci, with whimsical allusion to a historical act of the Mint in 1964. It causes all other imitations sold as silver rounds to pale in comparison of quality or effort. I think what Daniel has done is first-rate.

 

Hoot

[bsshog40]

As I have seen some of Daniels other fantasy coins and do see them as a work of art, I don't think I could go as far as to call these a work of art. An original Peace Dollar was taken and the date altered to create these. I don't feel a whole lot of creativity went into the making of this coin? I do however applaud him for what he has done in the past and his motivational intentions!

[Hoot]

I think it's fine to not consider what Daniel has done "art." I'll happily disagree and we can still be friends . So much of art is imitation and transformation, with little that is truly original in nature, considering the preponderance of it all. Originality is certainly not an issue in this case, but that does not diminish the talent involved in the transformational process. I personally believe that the art of this effort came in the transformational process - but that's just my belief.

 

Hoot