A Jeff I don't think ANYONE will guess the slabbed grade!

[spy88]

Give it your best shot! I will tell you that these pics are pics OF a pic, so there may be some clarity missing, but I don't think that will hinder your grade guesses. And it is SLABBED!

 

First, the obverse.

[spy88]

And now, the reverse.

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Proof-64

[jtryka]

MS-64 technical, MS-66 with the toning.

[Wihlborg]

IMO the coin is a MS-63. Jeff brought up a good point though, it may have been given a gift by the grading company for the toning, but in IMO toning or not this coin is no better than MS-63 due to all the hits on both the obverse and reverse.

 

After looking at the obverse photo again I noticed another severe hit on Jefferson's shoulder close to the rim. I adjusted my grade from MS-64 to MS-63 due to this.

 

John

[TomB]

I have absolutely no clue as to who owns this coin, however, the color saturation and brightness remind me of a greattoning auction on ebay. Is this where the images are from?

[chinook]

MS-66 But I cheated.

 

[gmarguli]

That's what I thought also, but usually hits the coins with light to bring out the color and this photo seems more software enhanced (not that the colors aren't accurate).

 

As for grade, I'll guess MS64 and say that no grade bump for color since the service was scared of the color.

[TomB]

I would think that they called it an MS66 for the color, especially since the title of the thread infers that we would never believe the grade. Please keep in mind that I would not grade it MS66, but the services can play fast-and-loose with the grades of nicely toned coins.

[jom]

the color saturation and brightness remind me of a greattoning auction on ebay.

 

heh

 

jom

[Wihlborg]

Tom,

 

I just found the coin on eBay, and you are correct it is being sold by greattoning. It is in a PCGS holder graded MS-66!

I have never been a fan of market grading, and this coin is an excellent example of why. Going by the photos, IMO there is no way this coin is a MS-66 with the number of hits it has. IMO it is a MS-63 that might make it into an MS-64 holder if the graders were feeling generous that day.

 

John

 

[Wihlborg]

Just for the record, I thought I would post a photo of my 1963d which I consider to be MS-65 and bought raw for $1.25.

 

 

John

[jtryka]

I think my 1963-D is AU, and I bought it for a nickel...

[Wihlborg]

 

John

[stillcollecting-migration]

PCGS MS66, can you believe it? It looks like Jefferson was using a rusty razor to shave.

[spy88]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2210354545&category=41088

 

Yea, I realized I should NOT have made the statement about NOT getting it right, therefore leading you to believe it was higher then you would think.

 

I like jtryka's assessment---MS 63 technical, but I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND +3 FOR THE TONING!!! For me, the tone on this Jeff is nice but it acts as a "detriment" to all the major hits and cuts on the devises. If toning brings in even a 1 or 2 pt enhancement to my Jeffs, then they would almost certainly slab at 68 or 69 and some would be 70! No doubt all of you could say the same thing about some of your own raw toned coins.

 

I personally think the boys across the street were on something the day this coin got graded! I will NEVER agree to it being a 66 based on the condition of the coin itself. Tone should NOT have that much of an effect on a grade, regardless the eye appeal it might have.

 

Its akin to seeing a totalled Ferrari with a new coat of paint, a attempt to hide the obvious destruction!

 

jom, Greg, chinook, Tom, RWW, thanks for the tries, even if some of you cheated! John, I would really take your Jeff over the slabbed one anyday!

 

And I won't even bring up the fact that this coin is at over $500 in bid right now! I wouldn't pay over $10 for it, that is, if I even WANTED the thing!

[braddick]

What do you guys believe NGC would grade this one out as on a Crossover?

How about if it was submitted raw?

[TomB]

That's an excellent question, Pat. I will say first that I don't think the coin would grade MS66 if it were cracked out and sent to PCGS again. The person who submitted this coin, in my opinion, was a fortunate recipient of the PCGS lottery. This does not mean that NGC wouldn't have done the same thing, it's just not in an NGC holder right now.

 

If it were raw I would call it MS64 maybe, and the reason for the hedge is that I just don't believe the coin looks, in-hand, how it looks in the image. Call my cynical.

[errorist]

MS 63

[spy88]

Based on PCGSs own grading guide, I could not see it as anything over a MS61

which would make the toning responsible for a full 5 points! Rediculous!

[Wihlborg]

I will say first that I don't think the coin would grade MS66 if it were cracked out and sent to PCGS again. The person who submitted this coin, in my opinion, was a fortunate recipient of the PCGS lottery. This does not mean that NGC wouldn't have done the same thing, it's just not in an NGC holder right now.

 

I agree with your above statement Tom. Also let me say that my comments about the coin where not meant as a slam against PCGS or greattoning, I would feel the same about this grade for this coin no matter who's holder it was in. Like I said IMO it is a MS-63 coin, maybe a MS-64 IF the marks don't look as severe in person. I am just amazed that there are people who would spend the money for coins like this, just to be able to have a ‘pop top’ coin.

 

John

 

[spy88]

IF the marks don't look as severe in person

 

John, not to be argumentative, but how could all the hits and cuts visible in the pics be any less in hand? If anything, I would think the opposite would be true.

 

‘pop top’ coin

 

This is the worst part of it all IMO! Even ICG, PCI, SGS or NTC wouldn't put a grade higher then 63 to this Jeff! Well, maybe they would. But I wouldn't see the problem as big with them having done so as I do with PCGS having done it!

 

I am having a MAJOR hard time mentally with this graded and slabbed Jeff!

 

I think we shoud submit ours tomorrow! We should get MS69's for both of them!

 

 

[Wihlborg]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

IF the marks don't look as severe in person

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

John, not to be argumentative, but how could all the hits and cuts visible in the pics be any less in hand? If anything, I would think the opposite would be true.

 

David,

 

Most of the time, whenever you see an image of a coin posted somewhere it has been enlarged, sometimes greatly compared to the coins actual size. This also enlarges every little tick and mark on the coin. This can sometimes make a mark that that can barely be seen with the naked eye when looking at the coin in person look like a much worse hit than it actually is. That is what I meant by my statement. While I personally don’t think that is the case with this coin, without actually looking at the coin in person I feel I should at least give some benefit of doubt that it may go as high as an MS-64.

 

John

 

[Leothelion]

I might be able to live with the hit on the eyebrow and maybe the big one in the hair but the 2-3 cuts on the cheek makes this about a $35 coin, due only to the toning, if it's that good!

Many coins like this will appear in "PayCGS grade coins like them" contest. Like here, everyone will stake their $50 entry fees on it, that it's a MS63 or maybe a MS64 but DH will be shoving this slab into everyone's faces exclaiming, " C'mon people, can't you grade coins?" "This coin is a MS66!" "Ok, let's see, only 1 person out of 17 got that one right! DH continues, "The next coin grades MS67 and it's a pop top coin but this time, no-one got it right........ha, ha, ha! "We grade coins better than anyone, ha, ha, ha!"

 

Leo

 

But very true!

[Leothelion]

I almost forgot! Here's my 63-D and please note the hit on the cheek. Although the steps are nice for this date, I grade it a MS64 but PayCGS thinks it's a MS65.

 

Leo

[Newmismatist]

I've seen the coin on ebay, so I know that PCGS graded it MS66. Technically the coin is MS64 due to the marks on the face - I think its better than a 63, even if you're a technical grader. Personally, I prefer eye-appeal over the hyper technical: "it has X marks so max grade is 63". The eye-appeal is definately MS66, BUT IMHO there are just too many marks to give it an overall grade of 66, so I'd be more comfortable grading this coin a PQ MS64 or a MS65. If it were in a MS 64 holder & the price spread was significant I'd crack it and try for an upgrade. As a MS65, I would be not characterize the coin as a "gift" or over-graded. I wouldn't buy it as a MS66, as its over-graded - BUT has great eye-appeal.

 

All of the above assumes the toning is real. To me that reverse looks like it may have been subjected to a real hot "attic" at some point - but to make a call on AT/NT I'd have to see the coin in the flesh.

[spy88]

Most of the time, whenever you see an image of a coin posted somewhere it has been enlarged, sometimes greatly compared to the coins actual size. This also enlarges every little tick and mark on the coin. This can sometimes make a mark that that can barely be seen with the naked eye

 

John, you are absolutely correct. MHA! I neglected to see this point of reference, and I know it to be true.

 

But the graders, by consensus, gave this poor excuse of a Jeff a 66 grade while in hand and using at least a 10X mag. They saw each and every nick, tick, scratch, hit and ding, but went beyond what they saw as detracting, in favor of the tone.

 

I know the TGSs make mistakes, but IMO, this coins given grade goes way beyond any reasonable one.

[EZ_E]

I almost forgot! Here's my 63-D and please note the hit on the cheek. Although the steps are nice for this date, I grade it a MS64 but PayCGS thinks it's a MS65.

 

Leo

 

Oooh, Leo, if that is the standard for a ms 64, then the '63 is undergraded. I'm definitely not slamming you, Leo, but I think that your post is in the ms 61-62 range.

 

As for the '63, my first impression was a technical grade of ms 64 (maybe a little liberal there) with a market grade of ms 65. Ideally, the toning/eye-appeal counts for 20% of the total grade.

 

Well, anyway, just my opinion.

[Leothelion]

I almost forgot! Here's my 63-D and please note the hit on the cheek. Although the steps are nice for this date, I grade it a MS64 but PayCGS thinks it's a MS65.

 

Leo

 

Oooh, Leo, if that is the standard for a ms 64, then the '63 is undergraded. I'm definitely not slamming you, Leo, but I think that your post is in the ms 61-62 range.

 

As for the '63, my first impression was a technical grade of ms 64 (maybe a little liberal there) with a market grade of ms 65. Ideally, the toning/eye-appeal counts for 20% of the total grade.

 

Well, anyway, just my opinion.

 

It is an old and bad pic of my 63-D coin. The slab also has numerous scratches.

The coin is very clean and fully strucked for the exception of the hit on the cheek. Many of the 1951 to 1970 FS nickels in my collection, like the 51, 52, 54, 54-S, 55, 56, 58, 60-D 4.50, 61 4.75, 61-D 4.50, 62-D 4.75and the 63-D 4.75 steps. Also the 64-D, 65 4.50, 66 4.50, 68-D 4.75, 68-S 4.75, 69-D 3.25, 69-S 2.25, 70-D 4.75, 70-S 4.75 all have much to be desired for in grade including the steps.

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Here's another! See attachment. Take a gander on how bad PayCGS botched this one. Besides the hit on the temple, the strike is very weak. Very weak hair and where are the windows? Note the die cracks in the hair top. And notice how easy it is to see Jefferson's head outline on the reverse. They graded this coin a MS67FS!

 

Leo

 

P. S. I left the date off so the seller won't get his underwear all bunched up taking some kind of offence from the works of PayCGS.