MPL/Copper color changes

[robec1347]

Yesterday there was a rather heated debate ATS on coppers and what would make the browns turn blue. If I were to say that me or someone else found some older images (from Heritage, Teletrade, etc.) of the MPL's that I posted to that thread and were now a different color, would you think that these coins had been manipulated in some way? Either by MS70 or some other agent.

 

These are the 2 coins posted

 

 

These are the "other" images

 

 

[MarkFeld]

If the top images are more recent, the (apparent) color difference is likely due either to the imaging/lighting or the coins having been messed with. My guess would be the latter. On the other hand, if the bottom images are more recent it is likely due to the imaging/lighting.

[robec1347]

Thanks Mark. Truth be told, both set of images were done by me and the bottom ones are the most recent. The reason for this little exercise is due to the blanket statements by some ATS that because the top two images were so blue that they were indeed MS70'd. If that were the case, would they still appear so brown under different lighting conditions? By the same token, in order to make them appear so blue (which was my intended goal), I had to put them under certain lighting conditions as well.

 

One of the members over there also furnished me with images of another MPL that I own that was in another holder on a Teletrade auction from last year. Indeed it was a different color. To him, it was all but obvious that the coin had been manipulated. Why is that always the first conclusion. Couldn't the reason be the imaging technique as I demonstrated above? The camera only sees what you feed it.

[MikeInFL]

A small change in lighting angle/type can have a huge change in color when photographing coins. Anyone who has experimented with photographs of toned coins should know this, and your examples show this well.

 

Until and unless I see a blue Lincoln in pocket change, an album, a roll, or an envelope, and having a reasonable chance of being naturally toned by such, I will continue to be suspicious of this color (and the same goes for purple/magenta)...Mike

[robec1347]

A small change in lighting angle/type can have a huge change in color when photographing coins. Anyone who has experimented with photographs of toned coins should know this, and your examples show this well.

 

I do know this, but not all imagers, including Teletrade, Heritage or others like them, do.

 

Until and unless I see a blue Lincoln in pocket change, an album, a roll, or an envelope, and having a reasonable chance of being naturally toned by such, I will continue to be suspicious of this color (and the same goes for purple/magenta)...Mike

 

This quote from the PCGS Coin Guide and I have found other quotes with pretty much the same description.

 

"When the Mint sold Matte Proofs, it wrapped them in thin tissue paper, which soon toned the coins to a brown or brown-purple hue. Matte Proof cents with much or all original mint red are very rare."

 

This quote from Q. David Bowers

 

"In recent years the rarity of Matte Proof Lincoln cents (and other Matte Proof denominations) has been realized. Of the 1,365 Matte Proofs reported coined for 1914, for example, probably only a few hundred still survive. Unless they have been cleaned, Matte Proofs of this era nearly always show various gradations of brown, gold, and iridescent toning, due to the chemical composition of the tissue paper in which they were distributed and stored."

So you're saying unless you were there to see the coin in this tissue, it didn't happen?

[clackamas-migration]

IMO, These coins were probably coated in shelac.

[chinook]

Mike,

 

I have seen hundreds of Lincolns from original US Mint sets from the 50's that very commonly have blue and magenta tones. I have also seen hundreds of Lincolns that have been cleaned with MS70. MS70 causes a reaction to oxidized copper, that can create mostly violet toning, but also nearly every other rainbow color.

 

So much discussion about MS70'ed copper, yet so little on the millions of altered silver and gold coins in TPG plastic.

[chinook]

IMO, These coins were probably coated in shelac.

 

There is no shelac presently on these coins.

[MikeInFL]

Mike,

 

I have seen hundreds of Lincolns from original US Mint sets from the 50's that very commonly have blue and magenta tones. I have also seen hundreds of Lincolns that have been cleaned with MS70. MS70 causes a reaction to oxidized copper, that can create mostly violet toning, but also nearly every other rainbow color.

 

So much discussion about MS70'ed copper, yet so little on the millions of altered silver and gold coins in TPG plastic.

 

Hi Dave! Hope you are well, and are enjoying the season!!! I trust the fish are still eating?

 

How many of those mint set Lincoln's were toned only blue or magenta? I can't say I have spent lots of time searching them, but I have seen more than a few 50's sets that were toned, and the copper coins virtually always have multiple colors on them, not monochromatically magenta or blue. Is your experience different?

 

Pushing the time frame back to include MPLs and IHCs, how many of the original sets you've seen come to market have monochromatically blue or violet copper?

 

I know what my (admittedly limited) experience is, but I am certainly interested in your and other's opinions and experience as well.

 

That said, and I can't speak for anyone else, but as a copper collector this issue is close to my heart. Your point is a fair one, and I doubt copper is really any different than silver or gold.

 

Take care...Mike

 

p.s. you coming to FUN?

[BOILER78]

Here is a coin from my pattern collection. These TrueView images were shot at the same time and the coin in question looks EXACTLY like both images depending on the angle of the coin relative to the light source. This coin is in a PCGS proof 67 bn holder and was crossed from an older generation (pre NCS) NGC holder.

 

 

Blue proof copper doesn't scare me!

[IGWT]

[bsshog40]

 

 

[jackson64]

one of my ship coins is a copper that has turned blueish... a nice hard times token...this has not been doctored..why bother to doctor a token?

[Just Bob]

 

Were these different pictures obtained just by changing the angle of the coin, or were there other factors involved (changing light source or intensity, etc)?

[IGWT]

Were these different pictures obtained just by changing the angle of the coin, or were there other factors involved (changing light source or intensity, etc)?

The first two are from auction archives, and I took only the third photo, so I can't tell you for sure. But I believe that the first and second pictures were taken with the focal plane parallel or nearly parallel to the face of the coin. The coin was tilted for the third picture.

[robec1347]

 

Were these different pictures obtained just by changing the angle of the coin, or were there other factors involved (changing light source or intensity, etc)?

 

And there would be many posters that would condemn the state of your coin as it appears in "your" photo as having been messed with when compared to the first picture, which could have the appearance of an earlier state. Images don't tell the whole story of the coin. Your images are a perfect example.

[IGWT]

And there would be many posters that would condemn the state of your coin as it appears in "your" photo as having been messed with when compared to the first picture, which could have the appearance of an earlier state. Images don't tell the whole story of the coin. Your images are a perfect example.

You're right that one image can't convey the various facets of toned proof copper, and I think that most collectors are aware of that fact. I've posted these photos a couple of times before, and no one has ever condemned the coin as AT. Maybe they're holding their tongues. Or, maybe they see differences between the toning on this coin and the look of a typical MS70'd coin. Although I'm certainly not an expert, I see differences myself, and I'm fortunate enough to know that this coin (which is a High R-7 and easy to track) has looked this way for a very long time.

 

Edited to add: Maybe the similarities in toning between Boiler's J-1578 and this coin are worth noting.

[chinook]

Hey Mike,

 

The fishies are still doing quite well, although it was a bloodbath for a few weeks due to low water. The poor things didnt have anywhere to go so it was literally like fishing in a barrel.

 

Back to coins, LeeG has lots of trueviews of Mint set Lincolns, and I have an incredible pic of an almost entirelly purple Lincoln on my work computer. I will post it after the Holidays.

 

Dave

[MikeInFL]

Hi Dave, Glad to hear you've been out catching them. It has been a very warm winter down here and the tarpon have stayed into December. Unfortunately I'm home sick and not out catching them this evening.

 

FWIW, to show what I'm referring to, here is a mint set Lincoln from the 50s that I consider very typical of the type of toning you see on these coins:

 

 

Again, the toning I see on these coins is iridescent in nature and is almost always more than one color. When I see monocromatic blue or violet/magenta coloration, my numismatic antenna instantly come to attention, particularly when such coloration is present without any skin/patina or carbon.

 

That said, I am also open-minded on this issue and certainly willing to listen to the thoughts and opinons of others on this topic...Mike

 

 

[MikeInFL]

Until and unless I see a blue Lincoln in pocket change, an album, a roll, or an envelope, and having a reasonable chance of being naturally toned by such, I will continue to be suspicious of this color (and the same goes for purple/magenta)...Mike

 

This quote from the PCGS Coin Guide and I have found other quotes with pretty much the same description.

 

"When the Mint sold Matte Proofs, it wrapped them in thin tissue paper, which soon toned the coins to a brown or brown-purple hue. Matte Proof cents with much or all original mint red are very rare."

 

This quote from Q. David Bowers

 

"In recent years the rarity of Matte Proof Lincoln cents (and other Matte Proof denominations) has been realized. Of the 1,365 Matte Proofs reported coined for 1914, for example, probably only a few hundred still survive. Unless they have been cleaned, Matte Proofs of this era nearly always show various gradations of brown, gold, and iridescent toning, due to the chemical composition of the tissue paper in which they were distributed and stored."

So you're saying unless you were there to see the coin in this tissue, it didn't happen?

 

No, that's not what I'm saying.

 

However, I have seen a few of these tissue toned sets come to market, and what I am saying is that none of them were toned monochromatically blue or violet. They are typically multiple colors, rather muted(moreso the MPLs), and with a thick skin/patna and almost always showing carbon spots. Is your experience different? If so, I'd love to hear it....

 

Furthermore, nothing that QDB contradicts my observations, as he even says "Matte Proofs of this era nearly always show various gradations of brown, gold, and iridescent toning". Funny he doesn't mention all-blue or all-violet examples.

 

As far as the opinon of the PCGS grading guide and the information provided therein, let's just say I trust my own eyes more (and I wonder who the contributor was), so to that extent you are correct.

 

That said, if you provide an example (a link to an auction, pictures, or some evidence) of a tissue toned proof exhibiting these characteristics, I will certainly consider them, but I have yet to see the first example, and I tend to trust my own observations over those who are either invested in or stand to gain from presenting contrary opinions (particularly without evidence).

 

Color me cynical, I suppose, but you have to give me some real evidence on this one as ancedotal evidence in print is not enough to overcome the evidence I've seen with my own two eyes.

 

Please understand that I do have an open mind, and am willing to listen to opinions of others and evidence to the contrary -- I don't pretend to know all there is about this subject, so if your opinion differs, please present it.

 

Respectfully...Mike

 

p.s. here is some direct evidence to the contrary:

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER: It is difficult to say anything from a picture as they can be deceptive (intentionally or unintentionally), and coins need to be examined in-hand to get a true feel for what's going on.

[gmarguli]

Perhaps they are the same coins without anything done to them, but the pictures were taken at different angles with different lighting?

[IGWT]

Perhaps they are the same coins without anything done to them, but the pictures were taken at different angles with different lighting?

Don't you know the answer to that question based on seeing one or more of the coins in person? Edited to add: I'm assuming that your comment refers to the pictures posted by Mike in the post immediately preceding yours. I went back to check the posts from 1 1/2 years ago, and those were your coins. Are you suggesting now -- in contradiction to your earlier posts -- that the blue tone is the result of pictures "taken at different angles with different lighting"?

[MarkFeld]

However, I have seen a few of these tissue toned sets come to market, and what I am saying is that none of them were toned monochromatically blue or violet.

While a grader at NGC, I saw quite a few (at least 20?) original Proof sets still in their individual envelopes in tissue paper, and I don't recall any of the cents being "monochromatically blue or violet'. I don't take that to mean that those cents which do have such color can't be "original", but.....

[bsshog40]

Some nice colors on them!

[SkyMan]

Heck, they look like pretty coins to me.

[michael]

Perhaps they are the same coins without anything done to them, but the pictures were taken at different angles with different lighting?

 

 

lol lol lol

[MikeInFL]

However, I have seen a few of these tissue toned sets come to market, and what I am saying is that none of them were toned monochromatically blue or violet.

While a grader at NGC, I saw quite a few (at least 20?) original Proof sets still in their individual envelopes in tissue paper, and I don't recall any of the cents being "monochromatically blue or violet'. I don't take that to mean that those cents which do have such color can't be "original", but.....

 

Mark,

 

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it. Tell me (us), what did these tissue toned coins look like?

 

Thanks...Mike

 

p.s. Your point is a fair one, just because tissue toned coins aren't monochromatic doesn't make those that are unoriginal. Quite to the contrary, I've seen velvet toned copper that has the monochromatic look. To wit, I suspect Boiler's coin is an example of a velvet toned copper coin that has this look. Boiler, do you care to comment?

[MikeInFL]

 

 

Blue proof copper doesn't scare me!

 

Another gorgeous coin, Boiler!

 

How do you think this coin was stored, or said another way, how did it acquire this coloration?

 

Thanks...Mike

[chinook]

Here are 2 Lincolns from a 1955 mint set.

 

[leeg]

Some very good points about this subject have been raised here. My hope is that we all can continue to talk about this subject in a construtive manner till all questions and suspicions have been answered. Someone should be asking these questions to the powers that be at the major Auction Houses and old time dealers that have seen these coins before grading. We should all be watching for some coins to come out of long held collections for some answers also. In a perfect world, the people that have messed with a coin would take ownership for doing it. Here are some coins that I've owned or currently own, infer what you will:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was ICG PR64RB then cracked out and now PCGS PR64BN:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was NGC 65BN and now PCGS 65BN:

 

 

 

Stewart Blay said ammonia had been used on this coin. I sent it to PCGS under the Grade Guarantee and they kept the coin:

 

 

Stewart also said this one has been messed with (PCGS MS64BN):

 

 

 

PCGS MS65 BN: