Just checking to confirm whether this Draped Bust Dollar is genuine??

[MarkFeld]

I do not plan to bid on it, but, for reasons I will disclose later, am seeking expert opinions on its genuineness? Thanks.

 

Link to Ebay listing

[MBA101]

It looks like it matches an "Off-Center" Bust variety, although the coin looks "off" like it has been cleaned, but then again the pics are really small.

 

I wouldn't touch a coin this expensive in a listing like this with a 10,000 mile pole.

[jom]

C'mon! It's an eBay listing. Of course it's genuine! eBay is the foremost leader in consistent integrity and valor. Don't you know anything, Poindexter? What a dolt!

 

jom

[Stanley]

I hope the seller doesn't mind us checking his item out

[ant]

the rim lettering ! it has 2 stars and 2 a's ! is that what is wrong. also the lettering is all jumbled up some site lower some sit at an angle. im seeing the rim as the problem.

 

am i right

[MAULEMALL]

C'mon! It's an eBay listing. Of course it's genuine! eBay is the foremost leader in consistent integrity and valor. Don't you know anything, Poindexter? What a dolt!

 

jom

Thank God you edited...

[michael]

in my opinion from the photo

 

not a geniune mint product of the late 18th century federal mint in philly

 

due to the fallen middle line in E in liberty

 

 

[MarkFeld]

in my opinion from the photo

 

not a geniune mint product of the late 18th century federal mint in philly

 

due to the fallen middle line in E in liberty

 

Michael, I think this NGC certified example looks similar in that regard?:

 

 

 

[NoTwilight]

Mark,

I'm no expert but I can't find any discrepency in the details. In fact, many minute details match. So I'd say it is either real or an electrotype copy of a real coin--which might explain it's mushy looking surfaces.

 

The NCG coin you posted is a pleasure to look at.

 

--Jerry

[MBA101]

Mark,

I'm no expert but I can't find any discrepency in the details. In fact, many minute details match. So I'd say it is either real or an electrotype copy of a real coin--which might explain it's mushy looking surfaces.

 

The NCG coin you posted is a pleasure to look at.

 

--Jerry

 

Details are mushy because the photo is enlarged.

 

The more I think about it, the more real it looks. But could the posting itself be a fake?

[just-john]

The lady on that 1795 is the wrong one .The one i own has a different lady on it.Also that one looks like it has a plug covered in the eagle chest/breast

Again I'm know expert

 

ebay auction

Replica 1795 S Small Date, Small Letters

Item number: 160153936054

[MarkFeld]

The lady on that 1795 is the wrong one .The one i own has a different lady on it.Also that one looks like it has a plug covered in the eagle chest/breast

Again I'm know expert

 

ebay auction

Replica 1795 S Small Date, Small Letters

Item number: 160153936054

Silver dollars from 1795 can be of either the Flowing Hair or Draped Bust design and I see no evidence of a plug. Is this the "different lady" you are speaking of?

 

 

 

[RGT]

I don't know if it's genuine or not, but I think that coin may have some "pen scratches" on it.

[Broc Mitchell]

I would not be suprised if this coin is fake. This is the same loser who offered the counterfeit 1807 Capped Bust Half and refused to remove the listing even though several individuals contacted him about the coin being fake.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290155814172&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D290155814172%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1

 

Same background and same pen/shooting technique.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1874364&page=1#Post1874364

 

Here is the link for the thread on that coin, and interestingly the closed auction was literally just pulled as I typed this. The auction was available one minute and gone the next.

 

-Broc

[thebeav]

The surfaces appear to have a 'Cast' look (and color also, if it's correct per the photo). The lettering, especially "The United States Of America", is rounded and very thin. As opposed to nice, squared off, bold letters of a struck piece.

 

Paul

[BillJones]

My guess is it might be a really good electro.

 

I've got to admit that I've not looked at the edge lettering on these coins for a long time. Having them in slabs will do that. But I can't recall seeing a piece with the "D" in "DOLLAR" tipped like that.

 

At the last EAC auction (Early American Coppers) there were some outstanding electrotype counterfeits of some classic American cents. The one that really stuck in my mind was a wonderful Chain Cent. It had been copied from a very high grade example, and it looked good, right down the edge device that looked deceptively good. Most electrotypes have plain edges, there are a few that have been "fixed up" right down the edge.

 

I would have had interest in it, but the bid went over $2,000.

[WoodenJefferson]

I swear, this exact coin, with the exact images (I remember the pen holding the coin edge on) just sold in another e-bay auction.

 

I shall have to do some research.

[Broc Mitchell]

I swear, this exact coin, with the exact images (I remember the pen holding the coin edge on) just sold in another e-bay auction.

 

I shall have to do some research.

 

The coin you are thinking of is probably the one discussed in the thread I linked above. It was the fake 1807 Capped Bust Half with 'worn edge lettering' which was shown by the seller by holding that coin in the very same pen, on the same background which would indicate that seller (rfcoins) and the seller in the auction discussed in this thread are one in the same. They are both located in Tampa FL according to the auction information. I couldn't find another auction that used the pen and can't locate the pictures of the fake 1807 Half in my temporary internet files but here is an auction from seller ID #1:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290154546371

 

-Broc

[rbrown4]

The sellers current "name" in question has been an EBAY member since Feb. 06 and only has one feedback. That was for buying a $2.99 Pocket Sized Digitial Scales. Hmmmm.

 

 

[awb]

If only he had purchased a book titled How to Counterfeit Draped Bust Dollars. Then we would know for sure!

[MAULEMALL]

What was Braddick's Chinese dollar

[WoodenJefferson]

Known counterfeit obverse.

Known counterfeit reverse.

 

Prior to the 1830's, Draped Bust dollars were struck without a restraining collar so as to not mess up the edge lettering. This accounts for the fact that diameters of coins before this date, including Bust dollars, can vary slightly. With coins struck without a restraining collar, the denticles extend all the way to the edge of the coin. With the image of the forgery, you can see the denticles end before the rim.

 

edit: brocmitchell You are correct about the other auctions ie; 1807 Bust Half, good detective work. I knew I seen something, somewhere...but what?

 

[MarkFeld]

Known counterfeit obverse.

Known counterfeit reverse.

 

Prior to the 1830's, Draped Bust dollars were struck without a restraining collar so as to not mess up the edge lettering. This accounts for the fact that diameters of coins before this date, including Bust dollars, can vary slightly. With coins struck without a restraining collar, the denticles extend all the way to the edge of the coin. With the image of the forgery, you can see the denticles end before the rim.

 

edit: brocmitchell You are correct about the other auctions ie; 1807 Bust Half, good detective work. I knew I seen something, somewhere...but what?

The obverses look different to me. See the placement of the bottom right hand star relative to Ms. Liberty, as well as the "E" in the word "LIBERTY" on each coin.

[WoodenJefferson]

Authentic "Coin Facts" image

Image colors reversed to omit bias opinion.

 

Too close for me to call, with pictures that is.

[xJack]

I hope the seller doesn't mind us checking his item out

 

 

I spotted this a day or two ago and posted in the other thread. Same background, same pen - definitely the guy with the c/f 1807 cbh.

 

Thanks for the large pic Stanley - it settles the issue for me.

 

Star 1 in the exploded picture appears to have an extra limb - definitely NOT a characteristic of B-14 (or any genuine dollar that I can think of).

 

Also, Star 4 appears to have a lump near the center - casting pimple?

 

Anyway - I politely e-mailed him and explained how I was skeptical on a $10K to $20K coin since his feedback is 1 and the pictures were bad.

 

He politely refused when I asked him to conduct a transaction through escrow.

 

I purchased the coin as is 2 years ago from a reputable dealer in St.Petersburg,Fla.. She matches weight and diameter and is composed of Silver. I have never sent the coin off to have the coin authenticated by a Third Party Grading Service. I would jump at your proposal but I am concerned that for any reason the coin comes back altered or counterfeit I could be held liable. I have my own money tied up in this piece. Thank You.

Richard,CoastLineCoins

 

It's a fake and he knows it - he's gonna rip someone else for a ton of cash.

[Conder101]

I think the extra point on Star 1 nails it. I checked out a MS piece in the Heritage archive just to be sure and B-14 has no trace of an extra point there. (There are only two 1795 draped bust small eagle dollars and B-15 has a very different star placement)

 

xjack found the answer.

 

(This sme coin was discussed in another thread somewhere, I don't know if it was here or in another forum and there I strongly questioned it because of the crude execution of the edge lettering. Still a very scary piece. It really does look good.)

[MarkFeld]

Thank you gentlemen. I have passed some of the feedback on to someone at the ANA, and, while I can't count on it happening, I am hoping that the listing will get pulled.

[gmarguli]

Thank you gentlemen. I have passed some of the feedback on to someone at the ANA, and, while I can't count on it happening, I am hoping that the listing will get pulled.

 

Would you now be willing to state why you personally think the coin may be counterfeit? I'll admit that I found it unusual (in a good way) that you asked for "expert opinions on its genuineness", yet I suspect that you possess more knowledge on these coins that most, if not all, of the forums members here.

[MarkFeld]

Thank you gentlemen. I have passed some of the feedback on to someone at the ANA, and, while I can't count on it happening, I am hoping that the listing will get pulled.

 

Would you now be willing to state why you personally think the coin may be counterfeit? I'll admit that I found it unusual (in a good way) that you asked for "expert opinions on its genuineness", yet I suspect that you possess more knowledge on these coins that most, if not all, of the forums members here.

Greg, when I started this thread, I suspected that the coin was a counterfeit, though I was by no means certain of it. The main (objective) reason was that the obverse surface appears to be too smooth, satin-like and uniform in its appearance, even for a high quality example. Other posters have now provided details/specifics regarding varieties and characteristics of genuine pieces, as I had hoped/expected they would be able to do.

 

Admittedly, I had other (non objective) reasons for being suspicious - the fact that the coin (which, if genuine, would be worth a large sum) was listed at no reserve and apparently by a seller who listed another counterfeit coin under a different Ebay ID very recently. The seller also refused to pull the listing when confronted with presumably good/specific details.

[Broc Mitchell]

Here is a transcript of my communication with seller ID #1

 

Me:

 

Hello,

 

I just wanted to let you know that this coin is not genuine. Genuine 1807 Capped Bust Halves have a different shaped eagle.

 

This is what a real one should look like:

 

http://coinfacts.com/half_dollars/capped_bust_half_dollars/1807_half_dollars/1807_half_dollar_o112.htm

 

You can see that the genuine one has a shorter, wider eagle and a different shape to Liberty. Also, on the genuine 1807's the eagles beak falls further to the left of the top of its wing, on the later type (1809 and later) they appear as yours does with the Beak more centered over the top of the wing arch. This appears to be a cast counterfiet which was based from an 1809 dated half which was then altered to 1807. Thank you for your time, I am sure you will do the right thing and end this listing. Have a great day!

 

-Broc

 

Them:

 

Your not genuine. I purchased this coin as genuine and I am selling the coin as genuine. What are you the E-Bay Police?

 

Me:

 

Your response is disheartening. First you should know that denial of knowledge as to the authenticity of a numismatic item is not an acceptable defence agaist offering a counterfeit coin for sale. I am certain I am not the only one who has contacted you about this counterfeit coin. As an avid coin collector and enthusiast I know that my fellow collectors who are educated in this series would be just as concerned as I am about a counterfeit coin being offered as genuine. There is common courtesy in this collecting field for one another to protect the interests of other collectors by notifying sellers of counterfeit coins that the coins are not genuine. There is an ulterior purpose for this action as well, to help prevent the seller from experiencing any legal actions from prospective buyers. There are laws regarding this issue:

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode15/usc_sup_01_15_10_48.html

 

If I was you I would contact your supplier of this coin for refund.

 

-Broc

 

Them:

 

Listen once again to what I am saying. The coin is not counterfeit.

 

 

 

I just hope the buyer of the coin did not send money before the auction was pulled, who knows how this outstanding citizen would act with the money in hand and the auction pulled from the eBay public database...

 

-Broc