Nouzillet

The coins that Thompson stole were not struck during the CA Gold Rush I think they are re struck Kellogg & Co Round $50 gold pieces If my memory serves me correctly they were made by slicing off the face plates of some of the gold bars recovered from the wreck. The face plates sell at auction for good prices They show the Assaying firm’s name ie Kellogg & Humbert , the number , the weight, the gold Fineness and the $ value of the bar The coins in Thompson’s stolen hoard were made from the melted gold obtained from these bars Purist’s would say they should not have melted the bars in the first place (that’s left to debate) I think the set of dies for the coins were the original ones from Kellogg & Co 1855 Thompson saw his grossly overvalued billion dollar wreck evaporate and his payout with it Lawyers must have gobbled up a significant amount of cash Perhaps he feels that he is entitled to something Yes the investors had a right to the gold he stole He picked the wrong judge to lie to Just my opinion of course I don’t think there is any comparison between the SSCA recovery and Saddle Ridge historic wise To me the SSCA recoveries win by a mile I guess I am prejudice I will say that David M did a first class job of restoring the SR Hoard gold coins that were not already harshly cleaned by the finder

In the SFBM’s Paying Clerks Ledger or Blotter covering in part the years 1861-1862 they listed the following deliveries of Seated quarters (Redbook Mintage 96,000) On August 3rd 20,000 delivered On October 16th 28,000 On December 28th 28,000 sub total 76,000 The final 20,000 1861 S Seated quarters were not delivered from the Coiner until January 13th of 1862 The next delivery of Seated quarters was made on May 28th 1862 and consisted of 12,000 coins On May 31st 12,000, on July 15th 12,000 on August 9th 4,000 on September 9th 20,000 and on November 20th 7,000 for a total mintage of 67,000 1862 S Seated quarters Note I do not know when the final mintage of 1861-S Seated quarters were actually struck I think it could have been in January of 1862

Nope, I don’t think so However he was rich. Born in Vermont Arrived in CA in 49. When he passed away in SF in 1902 his estate was valued at 600,000-700,00 plus

I remember coming across an old newspaper article from October of 1933. Some wealthy woman in Fresno California was served a Federal warrant (suspected) of hoarding gold. Turns out she did have a nice pile of the shiny metal. She reportedly turned into a SF bank $60,000 (face value) in Double Eagles , $430 in Eagles and Half Eagles and $25,000 in $20 Gold Certificates

The San Francisco Branch Mint was returning gold bars to her customers right from the start in April of 1854. For the year, only a handful of these returned bars were refined, most were unparted with no attempt being made to separate the silver from the native gold. I know that the Philadelphia Mint had returned gold bars poured from California gold to her customers in 1853. They were reportedly stamped with their weight and fineness and also carried a glued on paper label with them, or sort of a memorandum. Beginning in 1856, the San Francisco Mint also paid out some silver bars to her depositors. If the S.S. Central America had sunk in 1856, there would have been a decent chance that she carried some San Francisco Branch Mint gold bars in her treasure hold. In 1857, the S.F.B.M. had returned zero gold bars to her customers. Letter from the Archives Mint of the United States Philadelphia November 5, 1853 Sir: I forward to you on the 3rd instant, by Adams & Co. Express, a Box containing the stamps for the gold bars-letters, and figures, and a large set of figures for the Melter & Refiner, which I hope will reach you in good order and in time for your contemplated commencement of operations on the 1st of February next. I am respectfully Yours, (signed) James Ross Snowden Director. Dr. L.A. Birdsall Supt. Branch Mint Cal DWL my late grandmother and father were both born in San Francisco....

Roger your post is interesting.....In 1863, a Detroit newspaper wrote about the Glut of Silver in Canada...American silver....Silver abounds everywhere,,,I know that when the Fraser River gold rush broke out in British Columbia in 1858, Seated haves were reportedly carried from SF to this site in numbers....In 1859 a San Francisco newspaper editor complained that the new silver dollars (1859-S) were being melted by local silversmiths and turned into silver ware....I believe this tidbit appeared in a January 2017 Numismatist article on the coin.

A little side note The San Francisco Federal Archives in San Bruno CA have copies of letters that show millions of dollars in gold coins (Half Eagles, Eagles, and Double Eagles) being shipped once or twice a week from the SF Mint to the Denver Mint in 1908-1909

Thanks Tom

Yep Ford was at New Netherlands knew him well well sort of What about Coin Collectors Journal 1939 v 6 p 13 Must have appeared in an earlier auction catalogue

The Rep 1865 SSCA sank on September 12th 1857 did have a few NO silver halves from the 1850’s onboard primarily from the 1850’s

I reached out to an expert on these pieces He told me that it appears to be a legitimate Chinese chop mark. Most of the known Seated halves with chops bear the SF mint mark and are dated 1855-1865 Relatively common examples range from $125 to $250 in average circulated condition Of course they are rarer than Trades with chops. Less encountered P Mint coins can sell for more. An 1853 P Seated half recently sold for just over $1,000 It had two things going for it, a P Mint issue and a single year type. Again I received this info from a very knowledgeable collector .

This is interesting. I can’t tell you if the chop mark is legit. However, based on contemporary records I can state with certainty that Liberty Seated half dollars were shipped to Japan from San Francisco circa 1859-1860. Other years I don’t know I haven’t looked. Of course upon arrival in Japan a number would have been melted.

The 21 tons of gold is a Myth that gets repeated over and over again in article after article. It was based on a false claim that the ship carried a “secret U.S. Army shipment” that supposedly consisted of 600-50 lb boxes of gold ingots that were placed on the S.S. Sonora in SF and in turn the S. S. Central America at Aspinwall on her last voyage. It’s not at the bottom of the sea, it never was onboard the S.S.CA. The wreck site is severely degraded-no place for tons of additional gold to hide. Barry Schatz one of the original members of Columbus-America Discovery Group stated this decades ago. A much more realistic number is that the ship carried 3 tons of gold. This myth, was in part, why Tommy Thompson and CADG got caught up in what seemed like an endless and extremely costly legal battle over the ownership of the treasure. When the wreck was first discovered decades ago, some clueless folks valued her potential treasure at 1 billion dollars. That’s billion with a B or Baloney Don’t get me wrong it was a magnificent find and recovery. The ship simply never carried 21 tons of gold on her final voyage. SFBM records etc. show no such gold shipment. Again the wreck site is severely degraded- there is nowhere to hide tons of additional gold.

Philadelphia told SF not to issue them re-coin them instead dies were being sent Telegram May 14th Pollock to LaGrange

X. The Saudi Arabian 4 dinar gold discs. Genuine Saudi Arabian gold discs exist in 1 dinar and 4 dinar denominations They were struck by the Philadelphia Mint to pay petroleum royalties in gold at the time when the usual currency, British sovereigns, was scarce. The 4 dinar discs are rare. In 1958 they suddenly became abundant. Careful study of the new 4 dinar discs, however, showed that they were forgeries: unlike genuine pieces that had a provenance back into the early 1950s, they did not have stippling within the opening of the P and D of “PHILADELPHIA “ (Boosel 1959). These pieces are mentioned here because they come from the same source as the western gold bars, the Mexican gold bars, the Tubac ingot, the “Franklin Hoard” USAOG pieces, and the false counterstamps. Kleeberg p. 47

The entire mintage of 1872 CC half dollars were struck with 9 die marriages that included five different reverse dies. All of the reverse dies came from previous years. Since the Philadelphia Mint did send new obverse and reverse dies for the 1872 CC half dollars. Why weren’t any of these reverse dies used? I think the answer was because there was reportedly a railroad blockade that delayed the arrival of these dies from Philadelphia. This resulted in pent up demand for the coins. In turn the Superintendent of the CC Mint made a request and received 1872 obverse half dollar dies from the SFBM Superintendent . On February 13th, the coins were reportedly struck with the new obverse dies. Source: Gold Hill (Nevada) Evening News February 14th, 1872 In a letter dated November 10th, 1871, P Mint Director Pollock , stated that he had sent the SFBM a number of dies for the year 1872 including 10 obverse and 10 reverse half dollar dies. The SF Archives at San Bruno do not have the response correspondence from the SFBM until September of 1872 forward. So I don’t know when they received their 1872 coining dies. I looked for and did not find a request from CC to SF in 1872 for the needed obverse dies. The surviving records are simply not complete. I can say that the two Mints borrowed dies from each other on a number of occasions so this was nothing extraordinary . Perhaps once the CC Mint started coining their 1872 half dollars ,they did not require any of the half dollar reverse dies that must have eventually arrived from Philadelphia later in the year.

In a letter dated August 7th, 1873 James Pollock Superintendent of the P Mint wrote to OH LaGrange Superintendent of the SF Mint stating that he had forwarded to him by Express three pairs of dies for the Trade Dollar. He went on to state: These dies are more highly finished and of less radius than those heretofore furnished, and I would suggest that they be used in place of the old ones, exclusively, if the pressure upon you will permit. I always wondered if one could tell the difference between coins struck with these new dies and old dies. Who were they trying to impress. In April of 1876 LaGrange had sent a note to the Director of the Mint in Washington DC stating that they were now making silver coins of the best finish. I don’t recall any note about a proof or specimen striking of the 1894 S Barber dimes Just showed a regular albeit small mintage and delivery Don’t know about 1900

RWB LOL sorry about that, Yes of course you are right

In a letter dated October 30th 1877 The SF super wrote to Director Linderman Stating: Referring to your letter of the 29th ultimo in relation to the steel used in the experimental dies forwarded from the Philadelphia Mint I enclose herewith a report of our Coiner on the dies in question I would say that these dies do not suck, and that the test they have had is hardly a fair one to prove whether or not they will crack. From the reports made to me , I am of the opinion that the steel used in making these dies is of a quality superior to that used in dies sent to this Mint during the past year. Very Respectfully OH LaGrange Supt Note this was before the SF Morgan’s were struck in 1878 and the SF Mint workers would in fact have a rough go at it trying to harden the silver dollar dies sent from Philly

Gold dollars strange lot love em or melt them In correspondence dated July 11th and 16th of 1873 between Mint Director Linderman and P Mint Super Pollock Regarding the Assistant Treasurers at New York, Boston and Baltimore requiring gold coins less than the denomination of the Double Eagle for business transactions and Pollock’s subsequent order to coin $100,000 in gold dollars... Linderman wrote that the melting of several millions of gold dollars (many of which had scarcely been in circulation) for the Sub Treasury at New York during the past year followed almost immediately by an estimate for a new issue of $250,000 showed that proper care was not taken at New York to reserve a sufficient amount for the requirements of business and the same remark applies to the estimate for Eagles, Half Eagles Three dollar and Quarter Eagles. Random notes from the West Coast Regarding gold coin denominations less than Eagles dated 1854 the SFBM’ Paying Clerk received from the Coiner in April 246 Quarter Eagles (yearly total) 268 Half Eagles (yearly total) and 703 gold dollars The 703 gold dollars were delivered on April 29th perhaps they had a chance to become a rarity However another 1,729 were delivered on May 11th and 4,200 on August 18th rounded out with 8,000 additional coins on September 30th. Total 14,632 What is somewhat interesting the record books show a depositor demand and noted payout of gold dollars on August 18th. So perhaps demand separated them mintage wise from the 1854-S Quarter and Half Eagles On December 9th 1869, the SFBM’s Treasurer deposited for melting $9,651 gold dollars