RAJ on COINS

Speaking of Orlando FUN, their "trolley" bus service along International drive (I think) is very convenient between hotel and conference center. The walk is ok too.

Yes, I'm only aware of some re-punched mintmarks from Variety Plus and some odd mint mark placements. Have you found any Doubled Dies?

Roger, will this one also be sold through Heritage? Does it cover die varieties like the DD book? Sounds exciting!

It's one die hubbed twice, hence "doubled die"...

To be fair, my comments should be taken generally and not meant to suggest one should have inordinate fear. Despite whatever concerns, I do generally attend Whitman shows, will again (if they have them), and would not discourage anyone from doing so. Just use the common sense you use whenever to travel to unfamiliar places. I do think that at coin shows particularly, being aware of one's surroundings and exercising reasonable caution is probably a good idea.

Yes, I meant the city. Agree the Inner Harbor area is safer than some others, but Invariably the number of "requests for money" I get on Pratt Street every time I go there is unnerving. I feel less safe at those shows than at any of the others I go to regularly, including the Mint in Philadelphia which is in the pretty safe historic area. By the way, probably a good idea to remove badges, bags, etc.... anything identifying you as a "money person" before you exit the convention center. Also, you're probably safer if you go with a buddy.

You can (if you don't mean upstate!) I do that too. Not really a fan of Baltimore.

The Summer FUN has been canceled! Due to Carona, I'm hoping I can travel to upcoming coin shows by car. Pittsburgh ANA in early August and/or Whitman Expo in Baltimore in November are doable, and I'm trying to arrange talks at each. I'll let you know what happens. I'm guessing ANA might get cancelled as it's relatively soon. We will see. GF, do you live in FL?

Even before retirement, I have been fortunate to have the time and discretionary resources to have assembled a decent collection of these coins. We often hear from numismatic gurus "buy the book before the coin", but that wasn't possible when I began my DE journey years ago. There was no book even close to what Roger has achieved. Heritage's predecessor publication "The Coinage of Augustus Saint-Gaudens", (includes both eagle and double eagle series),while beautifully illustrated, is more like an auction catalog in tone and in terms of the information provided. It seems hard to believe that in the 80+ years since the SGDE series ended, no scholarly in-depth analysis of these coins had ever been published. Thanks to Roger's effort, that will not be a problem for future collectors. His book touches all the elements that fuel interest in a coin series; relevant history, art, science, economics, and political intrigue from the era the coins were made, as well as exhaustive descriptions, illustrations, and details about the coins that survive today. I personally feel it's publication is something of a capstone to my collecting endeavors. Since it's publication, I have transitioned my energies to advocacy and the education of others in the hobby (with regards to varieties) that is only possible now that the definitive "textbook" has been written. Despite my own immersion in the subject (for years), unquestionably most of what I know about the subject at this point I've learned from Roger's book. I believe its reputation and impact on the hobby will grow substantially in years to come. How lucky newcomers are to have such a reference available as they discover and fall in love with these beautiful coins!

Yes, Roger's book is the #1 resource for variety collecting by far. Second are the aforementioned Variety Plus pages on NGC's website. A distant third is the Current Cherrypicker's guide, where Saint Varieties have been treated almost as an afterthought. Unfortunately, reverse the order if you want to know which venue generates the widest interest and audience among collectors. The Cherrypicker's Guide has been around the longest and is more associated with general interest books in numismatics. You can find it in Barnes & Noble along with Red books (A Guidebook of United States Coins), coin folders, etc. It represents most collector's introduction to variety collecting I believe it is inevitable that Saint varieties will be studied with increased collector interest as knowledge about them becomes more widespread. Roger's book was a "missing link" in available scholarship on the subject. I am supporting Bill Fivaz and his team to include more entries in their upcoming revision of TCPG, and hope to do some talks and/or videos on the subject. I also talk to dealers I meet at shows about the subject and many have begun to take an interest. Hopefully, everyone will give me a run for my money where these coins are concerned, because that will mean I have meaningfully contributed to other's interest and enjoyment of the hobby!

Just an FYI. I did find information online about "Thermo-compression bonding". Apparently gold is one of the materials which can be "welded" in this way, but generally both pressure and temperature are required to achieve an effective bond. I doubt without other steps planchets could be welded together by a coin press alone. I can't remember how I got the idea that the 1907's were made that way. Perhaps it was the Vulcan Science Academy? I watch too many science (and science fiction) programs! ------------------------------------------- As Roger notes, the mint technicians obviously punched the 27mm blanks from thicker strip!

Wow! Thanks so much for that Roger. I nit sure where I read that they just squished two ten blanks! (I will try and find the source.) I am sure you are correct (having done so much research). It must be somewhat agonizing to hear fact you know mis-stated so often. I apologize for my mistakes in this blog and will endeavor to be more careful. Guess the lesson is, check your sources before you speak (or write)! So glad you are here to comment/correct.. It is easy for those of us who spend a few hours reading books to easily sound like those who spend years writing them, but the level of thinking and effort needed to unearth, synthesize, and accurately express information should not be underestimated by any of us. Again, my sincere and profound apology.

Ooops! My bad again. the Barber pattern is 1906, not 1907!

I mean bullion "Rounds" not tounds!

They are cool, but not legal tender mint issued. He did them as a private commission. They are equivalent to bullion "tounds". Barber actually did his own Double eagle re-design in 1907, perhaps to provide some "competitition" for St. Gaudens. Can't remember if Roger discusses this in his earlier "Renaissance" book series. (Can't find my copies at the moment ) Attached is a picture (again from the internet) of the barber designed pattern... You never know with coins! Don't be surprised if it shows up someday!

There's lots to learn. Fortunately lots of information is available. What really jump started my coin education was taking Summer Seminar courses at American Numismatic Association headquarters in Colorado Springs. They had to cancel this year's program for Covid, but they usually have a class or two at their spring and summer conventions. If you are not an ANA member, I highly recommend it!

Thanks Zebo, but don't give me too much credit... I just copied UHR internet images. I'm still trying to perfect my photography skills when it comes to coins, which I need to do to create a powerpoint for a future coin talk or video. Your phone photo is great!

Thanks Roger! Appreciate any and all corrections! Regarding the 1907 patterns, I find it fascinating that the striking force of the press had the effect of "welding" the two eagle planchets into a single coin. I have seen the survivors at the Smithsonian. Your book provides a wonderful illustration (page 19) of the edges of the early development efforts with the designs. The small diameter (wide edge) coin shows no apparent visual evidence that two blanks were merged into one. Maybe it's nothing unusual to a metallurgist, but I think it is interesting. I wonder if other metals do that? (I'm aware of examples of error coins where more than one planchet are struck together without the welding "effect" occurring.) Perhaps the mint's deliberate intention on the part of the gold coin experiment dictated some mechanical adjustments to obtain the desired outcome. Anyway, I just think it is cool! That edge photo illustrates another interesting fact. When I first observed a 2009 UHR up close, I thought perhaps the mint on it's own initiative selected a modern no-serif font for the edge lettering. I see from the illustration and your text that the font used on the modern version was actually true to the original pattern's sans-serif font! I'd like to see the mint issue a modern version of the Indian/Liberty head double eagle pattern. You say two were minted but only one is accounted for today. How on earth did that example wind up in Charles Barber's "estate"? ... must be nice to be an inside man! Much as Barber resented St. Gauden's "interference", I suspect he must have respected his artistry. If the second coin was made and not destroyed by the mint for testing or other reasons, it is hard to believe it has remained hidden for over a century. Such a beautiful high relief coin! It will be front page news and probably break sale records when that coin is re-discovered.

Yes. John Mercanti, former U.S. Mint Chief Engraver did those for Australia. (He and his wife Marianne are among my favorite "coin" friends.) John also did alot of work on the Ultra High Relief, adapting the designs from Saint Gaudens original plasters. The size was smaller than a conventional double eagle (actually the diameter of a Ten Dollar Eagle but double thick). That was originally tried as an experiment back in 1907 by the mint...using two ten dollar planchets. The laws at the time prohibited issuing double eagles with those dimensions, so all were melted except two, which are in the Smithsonian. They have long been favorite oddities of coin collectors. in 2009, it was done to better facilitate "metal flow" that the high relief design required. Pure gold was also used (instead of 90% used in 1907) for the same reasons. The goal was to bring up all of the details with the fewest number of strikes from the press. I agree the larger format would have looked cooler with easier to see designs, but those little UHR's are pretty neat as they are!

I do attend most major shows (Winter FUN, 3 Whitman Expos in Baltimore, ANA shows when I can.) 1922 S Slashed 2 $20 (Date/Mint/Variety name/Denomination) VP-002 (VarietyPlus designation for that date/mint/denomination) VP-001 for the 1922-S is Roger's Filed Die Variety. MS-62 (Mint State 62... but I'm sure you know about grading!) DISCOVERY COIN (descriptive line... sometimes they mention the coin's provenance, i.e. if the coin was in an important collection, it might say "Ex. Eliasberg") lastly, the NGC certification number. You can read CCAC transcripts on the mint's website. I believe Roger was a CCAC member at some point. Sometimes they have public meetings. The Mint also has "forums" in the fall, usually in Philadelphia or D.C. My experience is they listen to what collectors say, and then do what they were going to do anyhow. I've given them many (i thought) good suggestions and critiques. They are somewhat hamstrung by congress and the beauracracy as far as what they can and can't discuss. The Mint Director influences alot of the decisions that are "creative", as Moy did with the 2009 UHR. Ryder has other agendas, like targeting kids with "merry minters" animated characters. Not what I would be doing...but they haven't asked me! A two ounce gold coin would cost more than $3400 melt, probably $4000 they way they price things. They have enough trouble with the less expensive "stuff" they produce. Another nice coin is the Palladium 1 oz.... a high relief large "Mercury Dime" that is quite striking (pun intended!) The mint still has inventory of the 2019 reverse proof, which is a beautiful coin.

Were all just geeks having fun. Few of us can afford all the coins we want. I have to do SOMETHING while I'm not collecting 27 D's or '33's! And yes...social distancing!

Here is (a hasty) 22 S "slashed 2" image...

Agree with Roger that complete information is always preferable. It is very hard to keep up with everything going on, especially when many individuals are doing independent research. My research thing is Saint die varieties. Roger's research is that plus much much more. I have in the past and plan to continue passing on every bit of what might be new information I come across to Roger for his evaluation and/or possible inclusion with his own research and writings. I'm doing the same with Bill Fivaz (author of the Cherrypicker's guide) and his team at Whitman, and would with anyone who might be interested. Roger is sharing the recent 1916 S/S discovery with us! One of the most rewarding things about this hobby is this sharing of information. The more that is known about the coins we study, the more interesting they become. I don't think "credit" for small contributions (like mine) are important. What is important is the opportunity to interact and discuss discoveries and other subjects with really knowledgeable researchers (like Roger) and collectors that share our interest and appreciation of the coins we love! It's a great feeling to be able to add something new to the conversation, which Roger did in spades with his book. ------------------------------ I don't think other books (like the Bowers one) will absorb much of Roger's new material as they are somewhat limited by format and are aimed at a more general audience. Dave (Bowers) would do well to review Roger's book and update his "Die Data" entries in future revisions. The David Akers books are pretty dated at this point. Even the Cherrypicker's guide will limit what varieties they include, and try to pick ones where premium prices can be documented. More on this in a bit. Suffice it to say, Roger's book is on a whole other level from those "cliff notes" summaries. Not to denigrate the others which have their purpose and following, Roger's is serious scholarship which I already notice being quoted in high end auction catalogs. ----------------------------- There is a market problem in numismatics that I like to characterize as a chicken and egg thing. The Cherrypicker's guide provides a stellar example. That one book (I'm wrong already...it's actually two!) is Whitman Publishing's second best seller (after the "Red" Book). It has put variety collecting on the map during the few decades it has existed. Coins selected for inclusion are chosen partly on the basis of the novelty of the variety, but mostly because examples sell for a premium in the marketplace. Most of Whitman's "catalog" publications of this type are price guides, and the dramatic price differences between otherwise similar coins makes them go=to guides for dealers and collectors alike. But therein lies a problem. Coin entries in Cherrypicker's reach a wide audience, which generates interest and market demand that increases premiums paid for those coins. But coins that have not previously demonstrated premium demand in the marketplace are less likely to be added. Coin series that had enough variety "buzz" around them in the hobby (before TCPG) already had the market clout to get included. Think Morgan Dollars, Lincoln cents, etc. Coins the CONECA (Combined Organizations Of Numismatic Error Collectors Of America) guys obsess over. Likewise, series where little information is available about varieties have a tougher time. The problem is information. It takes a serious treatment (like Roger's book) for available information to reach the critical mass necessary for interest to grow and be noticed in the marketplace. Roger's book, (and I believe NGC's VarietyPlus web pages), are the catalysts I believe to put Saint varieties "on the map" going forward. Most important coins have important books associated with them. Think the 1804 dollar, Gobrecht dollars, 1913 liberty nickels, the '33 saints, the shipwreck coins... books are validation that specific coins are worthy of study and command premiums by serious collectors. Time will tell if I'm right about this. Some other factors in favor of collecting die varieties. They tend to be scarce to rare and outpace date/mintmark series keys in terms of price performance. Lincoln cents anyone? Would you rather have a 1909 S DVD or a 1955 doubled die? Check your red book! 1909 S is $1,350 in MS63 ... the '55 is $4,000. The real winner in the Lincoln series is the 1943 bronze cent, not a "die" variety per se, but a series variety nonetheless! There are similar examples in other series. Point is, in the history of most coin series, collecting usually begins with date collecting, proceeds to Date and Mint Mark collecting, then maybe proofs are added to business strikes, and finally, sometimes 50-100 years later (except in a few obvious cases) someone writes a complete study of the series including die variety information that adds the final definition to what is a "complete" collection. I think we are just at that point with Saints. I don't care if I'm wrong, because I having fun in any case, which brings me (phew!) to my last point. Cherrypicking is the MOST FUN a collector can have, whether it's finding silver dimes, quarters, and halves in rolled coins or filling pennyboards in years past, looking for "W" mintmarked quarters today, or (in my case) looking for special rare examples of otherwise common coins that NO ONE has managed or cared to find in 100 years! --------------------------------------------------------------- And YES, i like the 2009 UHR and think it is the coolest thing the mint has ever done for collectors, even making them in sufficient quantity so everyone who wanted one, while they were available, could get one. Thank you Ed Moy!

Not sure actually.... if these blog posts survive, perhaps! I will probably mention it in my talk in August, and at the time I found it, I did email Roger and send him pictures (and thanked him for his inspiration). Perhaps I will get a mention in a revised edition of his book? In fact, I think I'm the discoverer "of note". To be fair, a cataloger for an earlier auction example I later found did remark about the "gash", but didn't call it a die variety or reference other examples. I think to truly deserve recognition for a variety discovery, you need to find more than one example (which proves it is a "variety" and not just an "error"), which I (and I guess Dave Lange) believe I did first in the case of the "slashed two" As I mentioned above, the first coin I bought... the 1924 DDO, I knew was a bit funky 50 years ago, but I didn't pursue looking for another until others described it as a die variety decades later. This is why a comprehensive book like Roger's is so important. It lays out the extent of knowledge to the point of it's publication, leading the way to further discoveries. We all stand on the shoulders of Giants! I will post a picture of my "Discovery coin slab" tomorrow (after I get it out of my "Vault"!)