RAJ on COINS

Don't blame the element. It's like blaming cigarettes for lung cancer. A cigarette is harmless unless some primate lights it on fire and tries to breathe through it. If it wasn't gold, it would have been something else. The function Gold played in our economy was to provide discipline and integrity to the regulators of the value of our currency. Not perfect... nothing is. We are now living in an age of no restraint ... to the point that "nothing" crypto currencies are actually taken seriously, precisely because they are no more ridiculous than the actual fiat money we all continue to use. Ironically, the appeal of Cryptos over fiat we are told is the "limited supply" ( .... sound like any yellow metal you have ever heard of?) Money (gold and silver for the first few thousand years) was a huge advance over barter, and any economist worth his degree has to acknowledge the great strides forward of civilization and greater efficiency of economic transactions that the "concept" of money provided. Nothing better has yet been invented. Did wars or conquest and greed follow? So did penicillin. Would we be better off still in caves trading dinosaur bones? Guess it's a matter of opinion. Stop dissing Gold like it's some kind of boogie man. Gold has an appeal to the mind and senses that is not a characteristic of the metal, it is characteristic of the humans who behold it. If it's periodic place were taken by Styrofoam, some other material would have take taken it's place as the bane of human existence.

Sorry... I jumped back in without doing my homework. While we're on the subject, I dislike the phrase "hoard" in coin contexts. Every pile of coins that becomes "public" (after "discovery") becomes a hoard. From Google: noun - a stock or store of money or valued objects, typically one that is secret or carefully guarded. Since US Gold coins were not illegal (outside the country) They were probably not "secret" in the sense suggested ... just sitting in banks. But how much more romantic to to say "the Central America "hoard" was "discovered" in a bank vault" vs. "A dealer went to Central America to negotiate and purchase an assortment of American Gold coins from a bank's inventory." By the broad definition, every one of our collections is a "hoard"... and every one of us a "hoarder"... (and maybe we are). Instead of collectors, maybe we should call ourselves "ho"s for short? Ok, Ok,... I go too far.... Moving on, and I am not sure why I think this, but I somehow don't believe the "Saddle Ridge Hoard" story rings true. It's all just too cute that a couple walking their dog find a "can" of gold coins along the road. Was the so-called location on their own property? Something about that story makes me think it was made up to hide something funky about the actual source of those coins.... I hate marketing when it obscures the truth or attempts to "create history". The impetus to do this is great. Think about how a good "story" makes a good coin great (and more expensive)! What would a '33 Saint be without it's plotline and character's like "Izzy Switt"... it sound's like a Dicken's Novel! Someday someone's gonna make a musical out of that one. If I had the talent I would give it a shot!

The best evidence of Circulation Use of Saint Gaudens Double Eagles is, of course, circulated examples! Most of those were probably melted in the 30's. The fact that circulated coins, thought fairly rare, survive today is evidence that some did. I am always amazed to see a circulated High relief for sale or in an auction, which is not unusual. They are usually referred to as "pocket pieces", I guess meaning that the wear they display came from a single covetous owner. Being obviously "different" may have saved these in greater quantities from the melting pot than run of the mill worn Saints. A circulation worn (20th Century) gold coin is something of a rarity in itself, but I'm not sure that rarity today says anything definitive about the degree to which these coins saw commerce pre-melt. The melt reduced populations of everything,. I have often been tempted to add a "worn saint" to my collection...but haven't yet done so. They are alot more interesting than your average MS-60-62 bagmarked uggo!

it didn't make headlines in the late 1980s like the sinking did in 1857... not that i'm speaking from experience... I'm not THAT old!

Roger, Looking over Great collection's offering for this evening, something of interest showed up. Another 1922 S "variety"(?) with odd field die damage... I'm beginning to wonder what was going on with those dies. Looks like lots of parallel vertical "scratch" lines across most of the obverse. They are faint but noticeable. They look like the might cross liberties outstretched arm (I'm not sure from the picture) which would be lower on the die than the fields, so maybe not die damage, but coin damage? If that's the case, maybe the MS64 grade was generous. Just interesting, given the filed die and slashed 2 1922 S varieties with similar scraping. Take a look...what do you think? https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1000700/1922-S-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-64

"Redeemable in Gold..." Wonder what "Lawful Money" is?! (Hint: more paper!)

I think I slightly disagree. Until Gold coins and Certificates were called in in 1933, I don't think in most people's minds there was much of a difference between the two from a practical standpoint. I doubt there was ever a case where exchange of certificates for coins was contested or resisted by the government or banks (unless maybe a supply of coins wasn't immediately available). The Gold standard meant the two were interchangeable, and the legends on the notes were meant to be taken literally. There were other notes at the time, including U.S. Notes and even Federal Reserve Notes that also had gold "backing" but did not usually include text guaranteeing direct exchangeability for Gold Coin, and the backing was often less than 100%. After 1933, all that changed. American's were told their money was still backed by Gold, but all "exchange clauses" disappeared (as well as the entire series of "Gold Certificates"). Analogously, up until the mid 60's silver certificates could be exchanged (at the U.S. Treasury) for actual silver. Paper money became monopoly money in the 70's ..."Legal Tender for all debt's public and private"... the missing words they should have added were "... because we say so". The crypto geeks have a point when critics say... "bitcoin isn't backed by anything" and they reply "neither is the U.S. Dollar"... I love when economists diss gold as money. They run the world's economies. If gold is "just a commodity" or "a barbarous relic" then why in 2021 do we still have an army base guarding our national "reserves" at Ft. Knox? Just coin it all as '33 double eagles so every citizen can have one, empty the vaults, and stop talking about it in economic terms... Somehow we all know that will never happen. Why? Because money is what we all agree it is... and gold is also what most of us agree it is... (hint: Gold = money)

What about "Novi"? the illegitimate son of Davida Clark and Gus? Wonder if he had any family.

I can see the mintmarks! just can't always identify the "re-punched" ones from the images provided... some are easier to see than others, and magnification isn't the only factor. Angle of lighting is key as is contrast. Have been looking for a few for awhile now and am resigned to the fact that I will probably have to cherrypick them at shows where I can see them for myself in hand.

One of the problems in the hobby, and not just our hobby, with regards to information and coins is that often "mystery" about a situation generates more marketing impact than "full disclosure"... all the more so if some provocative name can be associated with the coins in question. If the truth about something is withheld, any plausible alternative story gets a credibility "boost". It's the basis of many successful historical drama movie scripts. Not always the case though. If the true story is more fascinating than a fictional, reconstructed, or embellished substitute...you can be sure you will hear every detail.

Yes, I agree that Heritages are the best, followed by Stacks Bowers, with Great Collections coming in third. My opinion... others may differ. Ebay is generally awful (possibly deliberately so with some sellers) if for no other reason than there is no consistency or standards from seller to seller. Let the buyer beware! My problem with Great Collections images is that there is just "two step" magnification, and at the second step variety details may still be hard to tease out. Trying to resolve re-punched mintmarks can be particularly maddening. In all cases, the resolution of the photos is key. Some of Heritages older archive images suffer in this regard. Given advances in technology and the situation covid put us in this past year, I am less forgiving these day of websites that don't give us (especially variety collectors) the details we need to make informed purchase decisions. As a cherrypicker, when I'm not sure of identification, I just don't bid!

Well how would we know? Since it is not attributed on the slab and the Auctioneer (Great Collections) would not mention it in their description, (despite being told about it by me), then to say that the variety didn't bring a premium is not accurate, since most to all bidders were probably not aware of it. If GC's images were better (like Heritages) so that cherrypickers could at least spot it, it might have done better. Then again, it is something of a dog of a coin. I would just say that nothing was proven here with regards to premiums. One needs to look at auctions of attributed slabs with catalog descriptions referencing it (and perhaps its scarcity) before making any meaningful statements about premiums.

...if not for the variety, that coin is COMPLETELY uninteresting....

I tried to get Ian Russell to mention it in the listing, but he won't do it if it isn't on the slab... Typical dealer. ( I bet he would mention an unattributed '55 double die cent... )

Yes.. I have a few of them. My highest is a 65. There were a total of 8 in 65 with none higher when last I looked in March. Agree...that 63 is a bit of a train wreck... I will not be bidding.

Thje "notches" at the stems of the A and R in Dollars are the pick-up points.

Just an FYI... Great Collections has an "un-attributed" PCGS MS-63 1922 DDR on auction ending tonight... https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/973326/1922-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-63 This particular variety is in the Cherrypickers guide, which means PCGS will attribute it if it is sent in... It is also in the "MEGA RED" redbook, one of only 3 entries, so it is one of the more "important" Saint varieties. There are only about 42 of these in attributed slabs at the moment...

What I meant to "type" was... "While they are at it, we could do with fewer American Eagles as well."

Slightly off topic, but curious as to Roger's take. Is there any reason to believe that any Saint's have been melted in the last 20 years, and is there any scenario by by which it would make (economic) sense for any to be melted in the future? The only case I can imagine would be if the metal price spiked because of some gold based medical or technological breakthrough, increasing demand for the raw metal above numismatic premiums. Some gold based cancer drug, or space/energy technology related breakthrough for example. Otherwise, I have a hard time believing that anyone would melt any, and yet I think the hobby might benefit if some 100,000 lower grade 1924's or 1908's hit the melting pot. Going to coin shows and seeing so many "bullion" date coins makes Saints look anything but rare. While they are at it, we do with fever American Eagles as well. Any thoughts?

No you won't! They are out there. I'm focused on the 1928 for the moment because of the question of how many DDO varieties exists. Would like to tie that down before I do another talk. As for the other varieties I already have, beyond the occasional upgrade, I don't usually buy. On those occasions I typically point out to dealers and other sellers the variety they generally are unaware of. Usually they are interested in what I have to say. As for me, hoarding swamps resources, and there are many other areas of numismatics which compete for my $$$ and attention. I love Gobrecht Dollars for instance... as well as art medals, shipwreck coins, and some currency, to name a few.. Numismatics is fascinating in every possible direction! I would have a hard time doing the kind of in depth research Roger is famous for, focusing on one area exclusively over years. I imagine that is what it takes to write the books he writes. My attention span isn't nearly so focused! I do think premiums for some of these (Saint variety) coins will rise in the future, perhaps to a point where they won't be "swamped" by fluctuations in the underlying gold price. At 66, for what's left of my lifetime, I expect that may not be the case. But one never knows....

Picked up a "gem" 1928 DDO in a Stacks Bowers auction tonight, my third example of this particular variety. It may be Roger's version, or a different one with very similar doubling in the date, initials, and "south-east" stars areas. Am anxious to compare with my other examples. I notice I am finding fewer and fewer "un-attributed" (not marked on the slab) varieties than I did just a few years ago in online auctions. Not sure in covid times if this is significant. There are logically a finite number of variety examples out there, and with more and more variety coins attributed each year, the remaining un-attributed population has to be dropping. Fortunately there are still opportunities for cherry picking!

I would think most of what was overseas has been repatriated by now, since there were numerous dealers chasing those coins down for decades. Doesn't mean there aren't still some over there. New arrivals can perturb the market for sure. I am getting tired of dealers manufacturing a snooty ($$$) sounding name and adding "hoard" as a suffix. The "Saddle Ridge Hoard" could just as easily been the "Tin Can Collection"

Unfortunately there are lots of myths in the hobby promulgated by different individuals with various agendas, usually profit being the main one. Clearly one cannot believe everything one hears.

Thanks Roger. The "wider audience" is precisely my target. I do think that collectors, regardless of what they can afford to own, can take enormous pleasure collecting "experiences" with coins. I will never own a complete set of Saints, but I have seen a complete set up close (at one of the coin shows) and also seen at least some of the langboard 33's (at coin shows) as well as the Farouk legal to own '33 (at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York a decade ago). Have also been to the Smithsonian and seen their goodies. Have also looked at hundreds of Saints at bourse tables and in lot viewing rooms. My personal collection, by contrast consists of examples of just 17 different date/mintmark combinations, only about a third of the set! There is a much wider audience of collectors interested in these coins than there are active set collectors, which is why knowing and talking about them is so rewarding. Just because the coins are generally expensive doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed on some level by all of us. Their history, and legacy, and especially their artistic designs, by intention, belong to all Americans.

I hope so too and thanks for the support!