RAJ on COINS

Dave is getting up there (age)... Not sure how Whitman will cope when he leaves the scene. His contributions to the hobby (and probably Whitman's bottom line) are enormous. My guess is they have a schedule for updates that is fairly arbitrary. The new Cherrypickers' will be the first edition without input from J.T. Stanton (the "S" in FS numbers) who passed away in 2018. Bill also is getting on in years. Jeff Garrett seems to be Whitman's heir apparent author/editor for a number of their publications, the Red Book being the obvious example. I don't have much direct contact beyond Bill and Dennis, and just provide information as a contributor when asked.

Not crazy enough to try to try to upstage Dave Bowers, Roger, or Jeff Ambio! In any case, I am carrying their messages essentially and have little new to say beyond personal opinions. There's a reason why CoinWorld will print dozens of my Guest Commentaries but not ask me to write articles! (Other than that they would have to pay me. )

Roger made the contribution (years of research)... I'm just a groupee!

Roger's book will be optional for scholarly "non-collectors", but for serious collectors (who want to be considered serious collectors) is will be mandatory reading. I can't even imagine having a current discussion at this point on the series, casual or otherwise, without multiple references to Roger's research.

I would say "Yes" to this, as Bill Fivaz (pronounced Fee-Vah... I screwed that up royally in my last talk even though I KNOW how to pronounce it!) and Dennis Tucker and Brandon Hall of Whitman confirmed it publicly at ANA in Atlanta last year. Though the delays from covid and subsequent editorial decisions as the book gets closer to print could change things, I still expect 5 New Saints added in the 6th edition.

I have no objections to posting links to my talk(s) in other relevant places. Once committed to the internet, I have to assume these things have a life of their own. Regarding Saints vs. Morgans, Roger's points are key: "A very large sample of all Morgan dollars, from most dies still exist. That allows subdivision of die varieties and exploration of minutiae not possible in other coin series. DE – Liberty and S-G – have only a tiny scattering of samples from die pairs available. Most were melted and will never be known. This limits the opportunity to locate new varieties to possibly a few dates, such as 1927 or 28, or 24, where we have a large supply of coins." I think the evidence of found coins so far bears this out. My main curiosity at this point is how many more will be attributed of both the better known CPG varieties and of the others, particularly some of Roger's new ones. For the record, I have never meant to suggest that Saint varieties will be "widely" collected (as indeed Saints themselves are not), but merely that any "serious" Saint's collectors, going forward, will be hard pressed to ignore varieties within the series as something esoteric by virtue of being undocumented or not well known. Roger's book and it's future editions and/or successors have ended the days of general "ignorance" of the topic. I don't expect that to mean premiums will "explode" for these coins. I would expect however more recognition and "mention", both of varieties and Roger's book, in future auction catalog descriptions and general press discussions of the series as time goes on, just as we see with early gold at present. Revealed rarity and popularity of specific varieties may spawn a few "winners" where market premiums are concerned, but most at best will probably trade with modest premiums if any. Varieties in this series deserve at least the same "respect" that they get in other series. This is among the important lasting legacies of Roger's research on the topic I believe. For me personally, I'm just glad to have taken an interest in this specialty roughly coincident with the information and scholarship newly available and the apparent rising interest in the subject, modest though it may ultimately turn out to be. It's fun to be interested in things others find interesting!

I do appreciate the review. Feedback is essential. Between the two webinars and this blog I think I have exhausted the varieties topic from my perspective Just waiting now for the 6th edition CPG and the resumption of coin shows!

OK.. back from shot 1! Here are some comments on your comments! 1) There are fewer Saint collectors than Morgan Collectors because of the cost of the coins. So yes, fewer variety collectors as well. But that's no reason why they should be less studied or less interesting. Since Collecting a set of Saints is out of the question for all but the most well heeled, I would argue that studying the varieties allows a type collector some affordable options other than one or two "normal" generics. 2) What I said was there have been (excluding the overdate which is generally not considered a "variety") around 1,500 total Saints of the other varieties slabbed and attributed (the variety specified on the label) so far in total by both PCGS and NGC. 3) Yes, the "HA"'s in Roger's book breakdown that way, though I'm not sure Roger was the architect of the scheme used by heritage. (Why not RB numbers?) ... anyway the term Variety in the book is fairly broad as it encompasses things like different mintmark "styles". I basically tallied the appearances of HA #'s as used in the book without too much editorial comment. 4) the key observation: that the CPG is the key that opens the door to major TPG attribution. 5) Agree, though I have been watching the numbers climb (and collecting myself) since well before Roger's book. Rogers SGDE's, however should have a significant impact, both in terms of the number of coin attributed, as well as the number of varieties collected, going forward. 6) A variety is probably the "only" reason (other than just authentication) to get a sub mint state saint slabbed, as only the variety characteristic is likely to generate any interest in the coin... unless of course it is one of the key rarities! 7) Yes...yes... 8) My research says yes and most price guides show a slightly higher price for the overdate. 9) They are ALL "legit"! (but only those six CPG Varieties get most of the headlines, as they are the only ones your average dealer may be aware of...which is why adding 5 more in the 6th edition is very significant) 10) yes and there are a few others on Dave's Variety Plus Page that NGC will also slab (grade & attribute). 11) I just think it is amazing it wasn't noticed in almost 100 years! Perhaps it was or mischaracterized as a damaged coin. It's pretty clear that with 5 coins found with the identical markings, it is DIE damage, not coin damage one is seeing. Also the markings being in the fields (lowest points on the coin, highest on the die, really proves the point. Kudos to Roger for spotting that elephant in the variety room! 12) I have been looking everywhere... Auction archives, auction catalogs, coin shows, both auction rooms and dealer tables. I think Roger has had some greater access to Heritage materials and high grade coins to review but he can speak to that. We use what we can find. 13) The overdate is a "standout", no question. Anything involving the date always gets alot of attention in the variety world. But the 1924 DDPO with the "doubled gown" is impressive in that many have been found and attributed despite not being in the CPG. Again, fame is a function of multiple factors and can be influenced just be inclusion in the CPG for example. There is no question that the '24 DDO is an important Saint variety in my mind. 14) They are coming from a historical perspective that has not rewarded (think $$$$) knowledge or mention of large gold coin varieties... but things change over time. I believe I am seeing it. It may not be now (or ever) that dramatic, but the genie is out of the box so to speak... No one can call themselves knowledgeable on the Saint Double Eagles going forward that isn't familiar with at least SOME of this information... 15) Considered by who? Everyone! Why? Separate entry in the Red book would be my guess, and because overdates generally are treated that way... but in reality it is first and foremost a Die Variety, as evidenced by inclusion in the CPG! The 55 double die cent is perhaps also considered a "separate coin" in the same way. It is a measure of the coins collectibility (think popularity), rather than a physical characteristic. Again, the '55 cent is a variety as well as a "separate coin" in the lincoln series. in that case, the "hole in the whitman blue folder for the 55 DDO is probably what put it on the map! Whitman is GOD when iot comes to this stuff. (Did I mention that they publish the CPG as well as the Red Book?!) 16) I doubt it personally, as they are not too rare, particularly in higher mint state coins, but the evidence I produced for the video is not my judgement, but that of others. It illustrates that the universe of interest, market action, and engagement with these coins in expanding, perhaps by fits and starts, and somewhat unpredictably... but expanding nonetheless.

Will comment on other point later... off to get my covid vaccine...

Incite vs Insight... Spell checker doesn't always pick the right one when they are both legitimate words... anyway, "incite"(interest) is what I am trying to do! (But I know you have the insight to know that!)

I planned to do it later in 2020, coincident with the release of the sixth edition CPG. Probably at a Whitman Expo in Baltimore, but they all got cancelled! (And the CPG release got indefinitely postpioned!)

That was my original intention in 2020, but covid intervened so I was relegated to virtual venues. I can't complain because It has been a new experience and rewarding in it's own way, but I am sorry to have missed the direct feedback a live audience provides. Unless I can continue to contribute new information to future talks on this subject, I will probably move on to other "less intense" coin topics. I do like promoting the work of others (like Roger) and supporting their research efforts. It has been a privilege to be sure. Funny you should mention Astronomy... my local Coin buddy and I are also Astronomy buffs. Maybe it has something to do will all those stars on the coins! One of my coin collecting themes is zodiac medals and other Astronomy themed coins and medals.

Did my follow up webinar on Saint Die Varieties last Tuesday for ANA's e-learning Academy. It's already on YouTube...https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/VEr3OdcICUk?autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3&loop=1&modestbranding=1&playlist=VEr3OdcICUk Tried to include new and updated material but of course some things had to be repeated from last August's Newman Symposium program. I like talking about these (and other) coins, and particularly this past year have really missed the coin show circuit. Giving talks is fun but the prep and power-point slides are surprisingly labor intensive. Hopefully people will get something out of it. Every chance I have to promote Roger's awesome book I take!

I think somebody went back in time to 1964 and showed her what coin prices would be like in the 21st Century, and she died from shock.

She was an amazing actress. See if you can spot her in "A Night to Remember", the British Titanic flick from the late 50"s based on Walter Lord's book. Speaking of Goldfinger, what does the movie and SGDE's have in common? ....They both have iconic "Golden Girls"!

WoW! Camels too? It just gets better and better!

No, I had a soft cover version "hard bound" by a local book binder in Princeton... they usually perform the service on senior or graduate thesis papers. I put Roger's name prominently on the cover as I thought it was a bit lost on the paperback version. I was hoping he would get more recognition than my small tribute, and indeed he won two 2018 Numismatic Literary Guild awards for Book of the Year and Best U.S. Coin Book. I was and remain so grateful that such a resource became available, particularly at the time that it did, since my variety collecting had matured around the same time and I had exhausted other resources for information on Saint Varieties. Roger's book provided some authoritative backup for the information I was painfully trying to assemble privately, as well as tons of new information as well. He is a diligent, practiced and efficient researcher and scrupulous about accuracy. Can't say enough good things about him or his contributions to the hobby. Sorry Roger, I know this is a bit much. Just know I have high standards for hero worship!

Nov. 2019 Stacks-Bowers

Yes, the 22 S filed die! I was able to locate one in an upcoming auction, unattributed of course. It's now in my collection :). I have found a total of 5 so far in auction records. Amazing no one caught this before Roger... He is the MAN!

Hey Roger. I understand there is a digital version of your book that Heritage made available to "the press" around the time of it's release... I tried to get a copy and would have paid for it, but they were not selling it at the time, just the soft cover version. (You may remember I had one bound that I gave you at a coin show!) Do you think they will ever make the electronic version available?

It is a great place, well worth a visit. I think those medals were sculpted by John Mercanti, former chief engraver for the US mint. (I actually met John at Aspet on an ANA "field trip" about 10 years ago.) He is a great fan of St. Gaudens work. Daniel Carr of Moonlight Mint has also "copied" saint gaudens designs on some interesting 'hard times' tokens and "fantasy" coins. Here are some photos:

FYI... In Stacks Bowers upcoming auction there is an MS63 1925 UNATTRIBUTED DDR (Double Die Reverse), Lot 3993 (Session 3 - Internet Only - U.S. Coins. Lots 3001-4156. The live auction session begins on Monday, December 21 at 9:00 AM PT.) https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-PDY9Q/1925-saint-gaudens-double-eagle-ms-63-pcgs This is a cherrypicker's variety and quite a bit rarer than your run of the mill 1925 Saint DE. Here is a chance to pick up a fairly rare coin (less than 100 certified attributed examples) for the price of a common one. (More than 108,000 "normal" 1925's have been certified by the top 2 Third party graders...) Merry Christmas!

I had been up to this year (the latest run up in gold prices). Was building my collection of common date Saint Varieties. Oddly, Heritage was sending me World and Ancient Auction catalogs too, though I haven't bid on any of those. I recently had to dispose of some old catalogs because they were just piling up. The information is available digitally in Heritage's "Auction Archives". They are beautifully printed books with massive amounts of information. I tend to keep the ones where an important collection or the focus of the auction relate to my personal interests.

That is actually how I got my first copy. Heritage sent it to me free and unsolicited because they had seen my participation in a couple of double eagle auctions. They also send me free catalogs of relevant material.

You are getting hooked! It is hard to tell from photo's, particularly if there is not a known example (or image) to compare it too. But someone has to find the first one! I live close enough to go to the 3 yearly Whitman Baltimore shows by car (which NGC always attends), so I have usually been able to show things to Dave Lange in person. It does seem to be the case that certain different doubled dies associated with specific areas of the dies appear repeatedly. We see this with 22, 26, & 28 doubling near the date for example. Slight beak doubling on the reverse also seems to show up on different dates. Does the 1924 DDO have a 1916 S clone? Wouldn't surprise me.