GoldFinger1969

Ron Gillio was a bit secretive on some of the details on his 1908 No Motto Saints hoard....other hoard finds lack details, too. I wonder if these "contacts" within the banks that had the hoards were maybe paid some $$$ and they don't want that to come out ? Maybe they were even "bought" by an equal number of modern day gold coins ?

Well, I checked the HA FUN 2020 catalog that I have against the online commentary for the 1927-D Saint-Gaudens and it matched word-for-word....the only additional extra in the catalog was a picture of a letter from one of the owners of the coin in the 1940's. I also checked the verbiage from a 1927-S Saint -- the same. So it appears no additional insight or commentary from having the printed catalog. Still, glad I have it and don't have to worry about anything lost online or downloading it myself. Whether other auction houses put their commentaries online since 2000 or so and whether they match up word-for-word I don't know. If I buy any non-HA catalogs, I'll let you all know. For sure, older catalogs -- pre-2000 -- are the most likely to have information that didn't make it onto the internet in some part.

Yes....complete collections of obscure coins or foreign or ancient coins...something where you won't find Red Books or others on them. Or if someone dumps a huge amount of MSDs or Saints, that would be worth having since you'd probably get information on some of the coins not available in the current book series on them. I believe that for Heritage, most of their information might be repeated on-line. When I get a chance, I'll double-check and report back. But I am pretty sure that some of the stuff in the FUN catalog was not on the website when the 1927-D Saint got auctioned. Plus, for some stuff, always good to have a print catalog -- you never know when something disappears off the web archives or is downsized.

Seems the catalogs are really useful for obscure or really niche coins. Since my favorites are Saint-Gaudens, Liberty DE's, and Morgans....I have book options for more information on the series.

That's awesome.....wonder if they have any unique commentary or writings on Saints or 1907 High Reliefs ?

I actually just bought a couple of catalogs on Ebay hoping for some new information on coins. Will let you all know if I got my moneys worth.

PF, for me, getting a few of the FUN catalogs last January was illuminating. The thing was, I wasn't sure they were for anybody attending their auctions or only high-end bidders. So I grabbed a few and put them in my backpack. The World Currency and U.S. Coins catalog ones are OK, nothing to want to get every year....but the Platinum Night Purple Book focused on the auction of the Duckor 1927-D Saint (did you attend ?) was definitely a keeper for me. Most of the information is on the HA website but it's nice to have it in print, too.

Cited alot today ? Wow...what coin(s) did it focus on ? Surprised an auction catalog from 1927 would be cited today except in footnotes detailing a coin or type of coin's price trend. Where was the bidding -- Ebay ?

Good memory Roger.....Bowers' has some realized auction prices as high as $42 into early-1908. Bulk probably in the $30's. Price then fell as the novelty worn off....rose again during The Roaring Twenties....collapsed into 1932 to a 5% premium or so.

I think they may have had a supply in reserve. You could always just overuse the existing dies and suffer a loss in striking quality. Or wait a few days and strike other coins while waiting for dies from Philly. I suspect once you telegraphed (later phoned) Philly, even from San Francisco, you would get the dies by rail/wagon in under 2 weeks.

Isn't the Susan B. Anthony octagonal or at least non-round ? What about the Sacagawea ?

Gotcha....even if 90% of the information is recycled on the coins I have interest in, the new stuff is still worth it to me. The 1927-D FUN catalag had some letters on the coin's pedigree, comments from Steve Duckor, and I believe was 5 or 6 pages of information. Oh yeah, I was there for the auction....I videotaped it on my smartphone...friend next to me said if my hands were any higher I would have been in on the bid at $1.6 million !!!

Keeping catalogs just for the sake of catalogs I get your point. The thickest book I have from the HA FUN conference features the sale of a 1927-D Saint-Gaudens so that is a catalog I will be keeping for a very long time. Had information on that particular coin I had never seen anywhere, not even in Roger's Saints book. Coins on world currency and other U.S. coins were not as impressive and of less interest to me but still had good information. But I could see how you'd want to eventually discard older ones unless it had a unique coin or section.

Don't know about you, but I find auction catalogs fascinating. I saw my first ones early last year at FUN. Fantastic pictures, tons of information much of it new. Some anectdotal, but this is information for collectors not a doctoral thesis or rocket project where the information must be verified to the nth degree. The Heritage auction catalogs are super-expansive, full of tons of information, and almost read like books. Most impressive, as Darth Vader once said. Haven't seen any yet from Stacks or GC. Alot of the coin books cite auction catalogs from the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's for price, description, and grade information. I bought a Sotheby's 1933 Saint-Gaudens catalog from 2002 on the only 1933 Saint ever sold. Most of the information is about the time period (1933) when the coin was made and the story that goes with the coin. I'm not sold on David Tripp's information and the position he took working for the government, but it's still good to have. Looking now at SS Central America catalogs on that hoard. Anybody else into auction catalogs ?

Wow, did they collapse that quickly ? I thought it took until after WW I for the price to fall. Bowers book had some auction prices for 1907 HR's. Regardless of time frame or price, the early sizzle did turn into a fizzle.

Then what about all those over-dates ? You know, 9/8, etc. ?

I'm not sure about you though given your level of knowledge....in fact, the information may have been supplanted by your book. It's dated 2016 so at least I know he didn't copy anything from your book. Anyway, I'll scan and highlight the key section(s)....it's just over 1 page, not very long by any stretch. I recall the dealer had some super-high end coins at the local coin show I attended. Did they get that high in price, Roger ? I thought $30 was the highest they got but maybe $35 was the first few days/weeks spike price. I'm finishing up another book on DE's today and meant to re-hit yours tomorrow. Thanks for the tip on the info in RoAC. I intend to buy the books soon. Friend offered to lend me his, but if I'm gonna read them, I want my own.

Sometimes the other mints over-struck years and maybe mint-marks, too, right ? Overstrike a year when it's 1 year old and you need the die...and maybe they did the same if San Francisco got Denver dies or vice-versa ?

Speculation/Pondering On 1907 High Relief Quantity: I know there was "great excitment" about the pending 1907 High Relief when it first came out. But....you compare supply and demand and something stands out. You add up the government dignitaries (a few dozen to maybe 200 ?) who want/get the coin....add in a very small number of coin dealers and jewelers (100 or so, tops ?)....the general public including usual collectors and 1st-timers (1,000 ? 2,000 ?).....and it doesn't come anywhere close to the 12,367 High Reliefs that were minted. We know that tellers and others grabbed them rather than circulate. Not sure if they stayed in sub-Treasurys or whererer they went after coming off the mint presses. Now...today we have about 1/2 of them certified/graded. The other half, we don't know about. Is it possible that with such excess supply of 1907 Saint HR's (if my numbers above are in the ballpark)..and with the price premium fading over time..... that many were simply used in circulation....got worn down...looked indistinguishable to the naked eye from a regular relief Saint-Gaudens so not "picked out" ....and then got melted in the 1930's ? Maybe because Double Eagles didn't circulate much they got bagged in an "assorted" bag sent overseas or south of the boarder ? Lots of 1907 Saint High Reliefs survive today in Mint State because lots of people knew they were special. But thousands seem to be unaccounted for...I myself see VERY FEW 1907 HR's graded less than AU-50 (which is were circulated coins would be) up for sale, and Iook very closely at HA, GC, and Ebay (starting to look more at SB, too). Gonna re-read the chapter on 1907 HR's in Roger's book and see if I forgot some pertinent information. Also got what appears to be some original research from a coin dealer (not copy-and-paste stuff from other sources) on 1907 HR's and will scan and post it here or in the thread for Roger's Saints book.

You mean subjectively more ATTRACTIVE, right ?

I don't understand the references to "bodybags" ??

Those were some of my favorite sections, Roger....your quotations of Akers, Duckor, Kosoff, etc. Especially recollections from the 1940's and 1950's. I agree with your other sentiments. The TPGs had just started operations when the 1st Edition came out but the 2nd Edition (2008) had almost 20 years of data and decent internet resources available. A 3rd Edition after 12 years would be something I'd buy in a heartbeat if they updated the data (even though yours is pretty much up-to-date) with new commentary and thoughts on Saints-only collecting. I'd even buy a slimmed-down version that excluded Indian Heads and was just Saints. Guess I'll just have to wait.....

Interesting....if NGC or the industry trade group has any numbers on coin and currency ONLY submissions or indications of collector interest, that would be of interest. Obviously, this year and last year are useless for coin show attendance but down the line NGC's observations on those as well would be of interest.

Well, you know I bought your Saints magnus opus and I will certainly buy another one down the line. I'm not a Kindle or smartphone book reader, but if it's there as well, I may get it there, too. That way, it's always with me at coin shows. Thinking of getting the Morse Saints book (which is in hardcover) if I am sure the content is a bit different and/or there are more/different photos than the ones in your book. I know page-wise it's 1/2 the size.

What would you guestimate a popular series like the RED BOOKS for Morgans, DE's, Peace Dollars runs to ? I would say on the larger size, probably closer to your 5,000 limit.