GoldFinger1969

$1,200 - $1,500 difference for a super-common coin like the 1908 NM is alot. That's too much for a holder discount. Still, interesting that you can get an MS-67 Saint-Gaudens coin for under $6,000 (including bp) though you have to look for a really nice one. RWB is right...lots of the 1908's don't look that great. In fact, I've seen MS-66 CACs OGH that look much sharper than all of these 67's.

What may be the policy ?

The Coins & Prices: OK, , here are the coins. If you find other MS-67's 1908 NM's feel free to post the pics and price so we can add to this comparision over time. The more data points the better. The Motl NGC coin was sold for $4,755 (without the bp which would take on another 10-12%). The older white holder NGC coin was sold for $5,000 even. The 1st PCGS coin was NOT SOLD and had an asking price of $6,250. Finally, the 2nd PCGS coin (the last pics) went for $6,550. So it looks like the NGC coins definitely sold for a discount based on the holders, unless you can see definite differences that the grades themself don't show. Even accounting for substantive differences, there appears to be a holder discount. As for why the 1st PCGS coin couldn't get a bid and a $300 discount to the 2nd PCGS coin, well, I'm not seeing much difference between them but will now be looking closer at the Hi-Def pics. Only realy blemish is the black copper spot (?) in teh Motl Coin near the olive branch in the left hand.

Ok....so.....the coins actually from those 2 hoards I take it had lots of 66's and 67's ? I'm a bit confused on the importance of this baseline thing (were you responding to someone ?). Basically, you have those 2 hoards and they're condition was such that there were lots of 66's and 67's because the coins were initially pristine and then even though exposed to the elements some coins randomly preserved/protected others and there was minimal moving over the decades -- is that what you are saying/implying ?

I will post the coin prices with coins matched tonight. So get yer Last Licks in by 9 PM or so !!

Ironically, that sounds like some of the weekend coinfomercials I see, like the ones with Rick Tomaska, who is an accomplished author of some Whitman Red books but has some questionable marketing plugs IMO in his show.

I think the PCGS premium largely reflects the fact that with Trophy Coins, the super-rich buyers prefer and will pay up -- price inelasticity ? -- for PCGS coins. And that filters down a bit to lower grades. Should it ? I have no idea. Why does NGC trade at a premium to PCGS in foreign/world/ancient (?) coins ? Again, I have no idea why. Maybe EliteCoin, who owns multiple Trophy Coins among Saints, can tell us how he would have felt had any of the coins been in one holder or the other. Or how he and other fellow high-end buyers see the 3 Big TPGs now. As I recall from his registry, I believe virtually every coin now is in a PCGS holder but maybe I'm wrong. FWIW, I've never heard a good explanation as to why the PCGS premium came about in the first place sometime in the mid-to-late 1990's. A market share thing....nicer holders....some gradeflation from the other TPGs....no idea.

Damn good question. I'm not really familiar with SBAs....but I will assume that at MS-67 the supply gets REALLY tight and you have heightened condition scarcity - is this the case ? Major inflection point.....that sort of thing. So....while there might be lots of 66's and 65's....there's no need to "pay up" for the PCGS premium at those levels. But not so at MS-67. The only thing you can do is see where recent sales went for all the relevant grades. The more price data, the better and more accurate. If NGC sellers think they can get PCGS pricing, let them believe that. Those who are savvy and understand the market will price accordingly. The rest will still be listing their coins 2 years from now.

Hey, I welcome ALL debate. If Roger has an opinion, I want to hear it even if I disagree with it. In this case, I think he forgot the grades the coins got which even if generous, still makes them all Gem Quality.

They are all MS-67's, Roger.....so they do have condition rarity. We might disagree on the grades, but they are all Gem or Super Gem quality. No low-60's or AU coins here, I think we can agree on that.

Tell you what....let me give everyone the prices for all 4 coins WITHOUT the buying premiums. The coins costs, in random order: $5,000....$6,550.....$4,755.....and an ask price (no sale) of $6,250. Now....you know the prices....can anybody match those 4 sales (3 sales, 1 no-bid) with the coin pics above ?

Interesting....I'll probably post the prices later today.

You mean it's the highest priced one ?

What made you focus on 1 particular year and that year in particular....as opposed to a wider time period, like say 1900-1914 or 1919-1933 or something like that ? Isn't focusing on 1 year sort of difficult ?

Always ask if the coin shown is what you are getting. Also make sure there's a decent return policy. Silver coins CAN change over time. If a silver coin is dated and flawless, less chance of it changing than a coin from the current or last year. A 10-year old coins less likely to exhibit changes than a 1-year old. I like to have a 70 grade for some modern coins, especially silver commemoratives. They look nice, especially the reverse proofs. However, once you get 1 in a series you might find it cost-effective to look at 69's since they look indistinguishable from the 70's but will cost considerably less.

How exactly can they tell if a coin was "cleaned" ? Do even modern cleaning cloths -- including super-fine microfibers and stuff like that -- necessarily show proof of cleaning compared to stuff 50 or 100 years ago ? Also, what about if a coin just slid in a velvet pouch, could that come off as cleaning ? I don't doubt that many coins were cleaned years or decades ago, but it's also possible they have light circulation wear or other contact with pouches (this was before TPGs for many coins) or whatever that held them.

Just curious...what are the grading fees on a trophy coin worth $1 MM ? What about one worth $100,000 ? Even if you spend 2-3 minutes on the coin instead of 30 seconds, it's a huge windfall for the lucky TPG.

2 More:

GUESS THE PRICE: I've never been a creator of those "Guess The Grades" threads....but following a bunch of MS-67 1908 No Motto Saint-Gaudens recently I thought where they priced out on GC was really fascinating. Can you guess the approximate prices on these 4 coins...or even tell which ones went for the most and least ? They're pretty well-spaced price-wise so you might be able to get it right. Don't cheat...I'll post the actual prices they went for in a day or so, unless more people are participating and going back-and-forth.

Wow.....MS-67 Saints (1908 NM's) for $5,500 and less. More to come later in the Saint Pricing Thread.

They were not really partners, they were sort of vendors in the same general area. Don't forget JA did have a role early in the start-ups for PCGS and NGC.

I think that was beginning to happen anyway, FM. I noticed the asking prices from sellers being too high and lots of CAC coins not getting bids. Buyers are (correctly ?) assuming that if a CAC coin hasn't upgraded by now, it's NOT going to get the higher grade, with the higher price that would command particularly at inflection points (i.e., Saints at MS-67 vs. 66). Interesting, wasn't aware of that. Any reason why PCGS has this huge amount of world coins of late ? Any hoards found ? Could NGC maybe not handle the load and wait times too long (I know NGC commands a premium in foreign/world coins) ?

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Liquidity and number of transactions matter to FMV, too. I can tell you price points for the 1908 NM Saint very easily because there are so many that you have sales quite often. Ditto the 1924 and 1927 Saints in most grades up to MS-66. But when you get to MS-67 and MS-68, transactions there are every few weeks or months.

Really ? Anything above that they won't allow ? As long as the item had a return policy I would be OK with going above that. I always wondered why, like their auto website, there wasn't a separate "Experts Only" Ebay or something like that for more pricey coins where maybe you had to be certified or put up a bond or something like that. Place that could more easily compete with HA or GC, etc.