GoldFinger1969

Are you talking about that Ebay seller who operates out of a Post Office box in Shanghai China ?

When it comes to Saints......resistance is futile !!

BTW, QA, my post above comes straight from Roger's book so give him the credit. I just organized it and wrote it in a nice colorful style. I had always wondered why the availability drops right off after 1928.

I think it would be great if a living relative of Saint-Gaudens were to appear as a speaker at a coin convention. Maybe a grandkid or great-grandkid. I think his son (Homer ?) spoke a few times in the 1950's but don't quote me.

The Fab Five: The 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D, and 1932 are the final 5 Saint-Gaudens coins minted. They are sometimes referred to as The Fab Five because they are all super-rare, particularly after the plentiful survivors of the 1928 and earlier coins. An interesting tidbit from the book on each of the coins: 1929 Saint: Access to Vault F Cage 4 at the Philly Mint meant that the coins were not easily accessible, blocked by other cages and stacks of coins. So they were "trapped" and thus prime targets to be melted down in their entirety after 1934. 1930-S Saint: 4 coins went from European buyer Paul Wittlin to John J. Ford, Jr (a collector)...... to Harvey Stack (dealer).... and all 4 coins were originally from a dealer in Paris, France. 1931 Saint: On page 546 note that 1931's were bought as late as February 1933 and throughout 1932. Why only about 25% of the amount purchased in 1932 ? Roger speculates that records may have been lost but I personally wouldn't be surprised if by 1932 talk of gold limitations caused the increase in retail purchases of the 1932 relative to prior years. 1931-D Saint: In 1957....the 1926-D, 1931-D, then 1927-D were the rarity rankings in auction catalogs.....but by 1962 the catalogers had caught up to the dealers/public and it was the 1927-D, 1931-D, and 1926-D for the Denver Mint rarities. The rankings remain unchanged to this day. 1932 Saint: 1,101,750 were minted. But not really....because 43 were really 1933 Saints that were added to an incomplete bag of 1932's....making it 1,101,707 1932's minted and 43 1933's added to balance the bag.....these were with the coiner, which is a possible way for some of the 1933 Saints to have been legally released before April 1933.

BH ?

SS Central America comes to mind. I know people who bought because of the story and the documentaries who own no other coins but those.

HA (and SB and GC) have a reputation to protect so they take control of the pictures and do an outstanding, professional job. If they relied on the sellers to provide pictures, they'd have lousy shots that would degrade from the buying experience. HA's commentary on some coins is also outstanding, a super treasure trove of information. Lengthy information is usually confined to the more expensive coins, but sometimes the information is applicable to the entire coin type. I'm in the process of compiling commentaries from HA and David Akers from the HA archives. I thought they were really big -- more than filled my PC screen -- though not with a gradual zoom like HA's. But you say you can't see the mintmarks even with >100% magnification, Ross ? I've gone back as far as 2005 (when the Morse Saints sale took place) and the pictures are pretty comparable to today's. Before that, as you head into the 1990's, you have descriptive information and price but sometimes no photos. I'll check pixel resolution next time I do some work on coins using HA and see if there's a big difference. But I believe digital cameras were taking pics utilizing megapixels (4-10 megs) as early as 2000 or 2002 so while today's pics can have alot more, you still had a decent amount after 2000. Go back another 5-10 years though and early digital pics were often only hundreds of thousands of bytes which isn't enough resolution. I'm not a photography expert by any stretch but once the internet got popular and the cost of digital cameras came down, resolution soared. And then when smarthphones came along 7-10 years later.....WOW !

I respect his respecting others privacy....however......names can always be changed to protect the innocent (or guilty ). Yes, Roger's book has some 1-liners and a few good paragraphs on hoards. I presume you mean there are some hoards out there comprised of Saints; I guess it depends on how we define "hoards." To me, it is an influx of NEW coins -- some people here consider a collection of certified and/or raw coins (purchased at least once if not several times) as a hoard -- I do not, but that is just me personally. If someone has 20 semi-scarce Saints that are all graded but off the market, to me that is NOT a hoard in the true sense as the coins have been certified and are already in the population census. At least with raw coins there's a possibility they've been out of the market for a while although they also could have been bought-and-sold for decades. I still think that it's better for our hobby and stoking interest in the coins if the story is told. Look at all the marketing hoards given for various Morgan Dollar groups and the WW II Saints (sewn into a coat liner). That's overkill to me, but I'd rather have too much information than too little. I also always thought that Gillio's Wells Fargo Hoard would have had more interest if the true origins from the post-WW I timeline had more blanks filled in. The story really started in the 1960's when the Saints got re-bagged.

No obligation in the legal sense, but if they are numismatists then they must know that the STORY that goes along with the coins....their history....is crucial to the enjoyment and attachment of this hobby. I would think they would feel a professional obligation to share that information. I know I would. It's NOT a trade secret, it's not details on their finances or mark-ups....it's just details regarding how long-lost coins and/or hoards were found. Roger's book, including the Commentary sections, had lots of information on various hoards and finds.

Some of the key MTB personnel are deceased which means we may never learn all the nitty-gritty about the famous 1983 El Salvador (?) Hoard which was close to 47,000 coins, mostly DE's. Those guys were numismatists and really had an obligation to give out the details on that hoard over the years to people like Akers, RWB, etc. Instead, we have an unfortunate situation where the information wasn't a trade secret nor impacting their finances, yet the details may well be lost for no good reason. Same thing with the Wells Fargo Hoard, where we still don't have key details and which is more closely guarded than the Wuhan Virology Institute's secrets. Gillio is protecting no future earnings, market prices of coins, or trading partners (names can always be left out). He really should fill-in-the-blanks.

I didn't know JC got turned down by PCGS and NGC. The nerve !!!

Kurt, not everybody interested in coins is as smart as you are. Many can't spend the time that you do....or those reading these forum messages. That's why the TPGs are critical IMO. We can debate CAC separately and if it is overkill or not. But not everybody "into coins" is going to be taking seminars, going to dealers every week, flying to coin shows, and spending 10 or 20 or 50 hours a week on coins and grading. For many/most....it's a FUN hobby and the TPG's help them make informed decisions.

OK.....but brakes either PASS or FAIL inspection. How's that ?

Mark, based on your past experience did you ever hear any of the junior or senior graders say that they'd prefer to go at a slower pace....that they needed more breaks.....complain about eye strain....etc. I also wonder if the pressure was more at PCGS than NGC since they were publicly traded (not so anymore).

Not a really fair comparsions, Gmarguli.....brakes either work or don't. Grading is subjective with a permittable range of opinions.

I get where you are coming from, Kurt, but it's like a sporting contest with umpires or referees: we may not like them personally or agree with all their decisions....but they are the neutral 3rd party that insures fair competition. Not perfect competition, but generally fair. Imagine selling/buying today on Ebay without TPGs. It's one thing for GC and HA to give fair and accurate photos and descriptions of coins, but imagine how Ebay would work today if all coins were unslabbed, no TPG certification, and all coins "raw." OMG.......

Not only are not all sellers truthful, sometimes they really don't know that much about what they own. You get an MS65 coin that really shold be an MS63; can you blame the seller for not saying it looks worse than an MS65 ? He might have zero grading skills and not honestly know. OTOH, if he used deceptive photos, that's indicative of deceit and he probably knew the coin was not an MS65.

You and your colleagues do a great job, Mark. I just found out about HA in the last 2 years and have won a few dozen items since. Very happy with the App/website, the items offered, customer service, and entire operation. Got some catalogs too down at FUN 2020.

If it's Ebay, you need to make sure the seller has a return policy for minute issues that they may legitimately not think worthy of mentioning (they may not even see it) but which are a deal-breaker to you. GC and HA -- their pictures are so outstanding that it's tough (but not impossible) to be misled by the photos. Each has a reputation to protect, too, though I'm not sure if they offer any returns.

Bingo !! There are lots of things I forget that I read in coin forums....but a few things stick with me and will be with me as long as I have my marbles. And one thing that hit like a heat-seeking missile was this statement: if you complain or dislike grade inflation in the coin hobby, you can't be against CAC.

Maybe, but JA is synonomous with CAC and is well-respected, do YOU know who the graders are at the TPG who went over your coins ?

TWIIIIXXXXXXXXX !!!!!!

Not sure what that means.....are they grading on a curve ? Calling it "uncirculated" because it's very rare and not many if any to compare it to ?

Good point ! I generally find GC's images to be pretty good, will go back and check this one. HA's are outstanding. Yup, let's keep looking.